Zoom Chat: 2021-10-20 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

07:50:41 From Priyatosh Jana to Everyone:
hi everyone
07:51:27 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone:
Hi Deavan , Priyatosh and all
07:59:39 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
The Japanese have a word for it. The literal meaning of their equivalent of "Good morning" is "It is early". Yawn!
08:00:11 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Good morning, afternoon, evening all :)
08:01:09 From Raymond Mamattah to Everyone:
Thanks
08:02:48 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
08:03:37 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Everyone:
RTT Link: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
08:03:49 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO Cahir to Everyone:
If that is the case, then do not repeat what we heard all ready
08:04:56 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Hello all
08:07:32 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO Chair to Everyone:
"Appendix E - Confusables - I went through this document and found out that there are many characters that can easily be abused in domain names to harm end-users. For example Latin Small Letter U with Acute (00FA) ú - VS.- Greek Small Letter Upsilon with Tono - (03CD) - ύ are almost indistinguishable. I recommend not including any of the characters presented in Appendix-E until further assessment with the community is done on these."
08:12:45 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
What I heard was Eduardo submitted a personal comment, not one on behalf of the region.
08:12:49 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Bill Jouris(Direct Message):
Hi Bill! Our interpreters are reporting that your sound is muffled to them—do you mind trying to reposition your mic or do you have a headset?
08:13:26 From Bill Jouris to Devan Reed - ICANN Org(Direct Message):
I can try. Apologies to the interpreters
08:13:43 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Bill Jouris(Direct Message):
Thank you! Zoom is clear, so I hope it clears up
08:15:43 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO Chair to Everyone:
@Alan: that is correct.
08:15:43 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
They are not the same...
08:16:15 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
Variants are characters which MAY look alike but are treated as being the same.
08:17:40 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
Variants and confusables are processed at different stages in the application process
08:18:22 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
Can you see difference here - [саn] and [can]? I put this in Latin and Cyrillic scripts.
08:19:18 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
This is confusable for users
08:19:29 From Bill Jouris to Devan Reed - ICANN Org(Direct Message):
@Liana, the better example is .com and the Cyrillic name. That would be allowed because the Cyrillic letter looks like a capital M rather than a lower case Latin M, and thus is not a variant as written
08:19:37 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Bill Jouris(Direct Message):
Hey Bill, that was directly to me
08:19:59 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Liana, the better example is .com and the Cyrillic name. That would be allowed because the Cyrillic letter looks like a capital M rather than a lower case Latin M, and thus is not a variant as written
08:20:07 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Do we know the outcome of a string similarity “contest”?
08:21:12 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
@Bill, agree, it was just an example and only in 2 scripts. We can find many others.
08:21:58 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Many of these questions are being considered by the EPDP on IDNs
08:22:02 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Lianna, an entire Appendix of them. ;-)
08:22:44 From Lianna Galstyan to Everyone:
@Bill, right :)
08:22:58 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
fair
08:23:11 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Before my time, I'm afraid
08:23:15 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
I found the reference at: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idna-protocol-2012-02-25-en very useful. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
08:24:13 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
This is "IDN Character Validation Guidance" - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
08:25:09 From iPad (27)Vanda Scartezini to Everyone:
Hi everyone sorry to be late
08:25:23 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
The GPs were explicitly told NOT to consider upper case when deciding what might be a cross-script variant. Another example to Alan's point would be the Sharp S (used in German (which looks like a Beta) vs a double S (ss)
08:26:04 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
We are starting to get confused between DNS Stability evaluation and String Similarity evaluation. The RZ-LGR is being proposed as part of the DNS Stability evaluation which derives variants. String Similarity evaluation deals with risk of confusion, by manual visual test.
08:26:10 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
The
08:26:22 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
The Sharp S and double S are considered variants
08:27:07 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone:
I suggest that we are experiencing in real times the limits to virtual meetings. Could we please have a URL for the document that inventories all the variants in all scripts that are being currently considered. IO need to Read this material in detail.
08:27:18 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Bill: Correct for many languages similar to German
08:27:34 From iPad (27)Vanda Scartezini to Everyone:
Agree Christopher
08:28:10 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Bill: The "upper case Sharp S" was unavailable since a few years ago, is was Always replaces by SS
08:28:13 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO Chair to Everyone:
Thanks Jonathan
08:28:18 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Christopher https://www.icann.org/en/public-comment/proceeding/proposal-for-latin-script-root-zone-label-generation-rules-23-09-2021
08:28:19 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
At-Large Workspace: Proposal for Latin Script Root Zone Label Generation Rules - https://community.icann.org/display/alacpolicydev/At-Large+Workspace%3A+Proposal+for+Latin+Script+Root+Zone+Label+Generation+Rules
08:28:55 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Variants are in the body of the Proposal, while Confusables are in Appendix E
08:29:40 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Yes a list of variants being considered, with characters shown graphically, each character identified by script. The list saying "00E0 : PVALID : LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE
00E1 : PVALID : LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH ACUTE
00E2 : PVALID : LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX
00E3 : PVALID : LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH TILDE" doesn't help
08:29:44 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone:
I have got a printout of the talking points. I would have put Subsequent Procedures Highter
08:30:08 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
The Board questions are on the agenda: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Meetings+-+Monday%2C+25+October+2021
08:31:04 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, The body of the Proposal does have a table, with each code point which is a variant shown by name, shown graphically, and with the Unicode number
08:32:17 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
Thank you Bill.
08:33:51 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
Siva, thank you for the question. (I have been so close to this for so long that I lose track of what is unclear from the outside.)
08:34:19 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Bill if you are referring to https://community.icann.org/display/alacpolicydev/At-Large+Workspace%3A+Proposal+for+Latin+Script+Root+Zone+Label+Generation+Rules?preview=/176621591/176622107/The%20Latin%20Script%20LGR.pdf it is only a list of Latin variants, is there a list of all IDN variants?
08:36:16 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, not year. The Integration Panel is eventually (when all of the script GPs have finished) going to produce a consolidated list. But they will just be using the various proposals from the GPs, without much opportunity for further modification.
08:36:32 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
year => yet
08:37:10 From Greg Shatan to Everyone:
+1 Alan.
08:37:53 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@ Bill If I understand it right, such a list will not be released until it is too late to modify it ???????
08:38:18 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, pretty much. At least as I understand the process plan
08:38:42 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@ Bill Wow. The policy development process is imaginately designed.
08:39:53 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, I suppose it depends on what the goals of the process are. It does look effective in keeping (effective) demands for more variants to a minimum.
08:40:18 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
But I might be doing the designers a disservice
08:41:38 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
The ICANN IDN Glossary is at: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/glossary-2014-02-04-en - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
08:42:17 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@Bill The purpose / utility of such a list is not only to add more variants, but also to examine the validity of the argument for most variants
08:42:49 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
to identify what variants are within and what are cross script
08:43:38 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Mobile censorship at work
08:43:47 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
... what variants are likely to be a problem as in everyday use, and what are theoretical;
08:45:36 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, the design defect is that the GPs are made up of experts, with minimal input from everyday users. The need for such a non-expert review is part of what the ALAC Comment hopes to address
08:46:01 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
That's a review other than the Public Comments
08:48:22 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
What is the position on the most renowned Top registrars on the 60 day restriction? Does any of them feel that removal of this restriction would NOT hurt them?
08:49:08 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
i.e. The renowned Registrars would be confident about the quality of their services.
08:49:40 From Devan Reed - ICANN Org to Lutz Donnerhacke(Direct Message):
Hi Lutz! We hear you clearly but the background noise on your line is distracting for the interpreters—just a heads up if you speak again
08:50:01 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, not sure I understand the question. Are you talking about the 60 day limit for submitting comments? That's pretty standard for the comment process.
08:50:02 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
The only reason to remove the lock is: Allow new Business models on the secondary Domain market …. Nothing to support from our side
08:50:12 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Thank you and noted Yrjö
08:50:20 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Sounds good!
08:50:30 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
There seems to be some push-back from the domain investor community on this matter.
08:50:39 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
for eg. as a RegistrANT, I wouldn't have any reason to move away from say, Google Domains to someone else as soon as I register the domain, without extraordinary cause
08:50:58 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
(The curative rights/IGO stuff)
08:51:07 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
@yes bill about 60 day limit
08:51:14 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
There is reason
08:51:30 From Sivasubramanian M to Everyone:
.... Away.. apologies
08:51:33 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Nice!
08:51:39 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
@Siva, I don't know that the idea of extending the limit has come up for discussion at all.
08:52:04 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
to immedeate Transfer a Fresh Domain Name: The webmaster registered the Domain Name for the customer, but the customer want the own the Domain itself
08:52:05 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
We have to remember that a transfer add another year to the domain name lifecycle - not sure removal of the 60 days lock AFTER the transfer creates a new business model
08:52:23 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Sure - 24 hr deadline
08:54:04 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Steinar, Ry spoke About domain gathering companies, which hunt domain names in order to sell them to possible interests
08:54:52 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Lutz Dropcatchers?
08:55:11 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
John, I'm not familar with those businesses
08:55:15 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
Lutz: Do the 60 days lock prevent this? Drop-catching is a business today for expired domains
08:55:45 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Steinar, they argued in this way, AFAIU
08:55:55 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Lutz They quickly reregister dropped/deleted domain names and sell them on either via auction or to customers who have pre-ordered the domain name.
08:56:21 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Hundreds of registrars exist only to dropcatch.They are not retail registrars.
08:57:19 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone:
Ah, then may be the think About secondary companies, which broker those domain names from dropcatchers in order to find the best customer later on.
08:57:28 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
+1 JZ -- it was an excellent session that left a number of open questions.
08:58:03 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@JZ Do the people in ICANN want to build their own scanning system and create their own statistics rather than relying on blocklists?
08:58:31 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Is DAAR value for money?
08:58:40 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Exactly @Marita
09:00:24 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Do we know how much it costs?
09:01:19 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
We have to go back at (1) the history of DAAR any why OCTO came up with it and (2) how has it evolved.
09:01:51 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
*back and look at
09:02:07 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Alan elementary
09:03:40 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
John Crain is acting CTO
09:03:57 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
So the community needs to push for better more functionality?
09:04:31 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
@Marita, I think the problem is two-fold, (1) availability of data and (2) what you can do with the result
09:05:44 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone:
The CTO's office created DAAR
09:06:32 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
right @ Justine. There was also the issue of how contracts can or should be affected by results
09:07:20 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Olivier is lost to the Shadow of DAAR! LOL
09:07:28 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
I think the CTO office might be benefiting from DAAR in some form
09:07:49 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Well, the block lists existed before DAAR, since they are the data source
09:09:13 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Getting rid of DAAR would be idiotic.
09:11:54 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
Graeme ALSO mentioned a kind of alternative to DAAR, which is separate from the complaint system
09:12:18 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
It is a start. It needs to be built upon.
09:12:46 From Greg Shatan to Everyone:
@John, agree. This is an iterative process.
09:13:26 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
@Greg The types and categories of abuse change. That's one of the reasons why it needs to be continually updated.
09:13:49 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
From the start DAAR reports on the data it receives in an aggregate way, not discrete way (not intended to name bad actors)
09:15:15 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Why didn't we ask all these questions when John C and Samanyeh presented on DAAR here at CPWG before??
09:15:56 From Marita Moll to Everyone:
Would a webinar on exactly how it works be useful -- pros & cons?
09:17:32 From Steinar Grøtterød to Everyone:
It is a question whether RA Spec 113B makes it possible for ICANN Compliance to terminate RO agreements
09:17:40 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
DNSTICR!
09:18:07 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Integrating pricing discounts into DAAR would be a useful addition as it should coincide with spikes in DNS abuse.
09:18:15 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
OCTO now has DAAR and DNSTICR
09:18:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
+1
09:18:47 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
ICANN does not have access to data, data is held by registrars
09:20:06 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
I shall need to leave now - thank you all bye for now see you in two hours - Sébastien session
09:20:22 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone:
Sébastien's session
09:20:26 From Justine Chew to Everyone:
Other duty calls, sorry @SeB
09:21:15 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone:
got dropped but will try Zoom
09:21:23 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
Details of today’s At-Large Week sessions: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Meetings+-+Wednesday%2C+20+October+2021
09:21:45 From iPad (27)Vanda Scartezini to Everyone:
Already done Judith
09:21:52 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone:
At-Large Trivia Event, hosted by NARALO

Participants will have the chance to play a game and test their knowledge on ICANN and the North American region, the region hosting ICANN 72 virtually.

Please register at: https://icann.zoom.us/meeting/register/tJUkcO6oqTooGNJBVf2qEqqc3e1yPhWrBjpY
09:22:15 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
A tradition, we should probably continue
09:22:41 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
Take care everyone, stay safe and be kind.
09:22:45 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone:
We hear you! Now that it’s not substantive…
09:23:05 From Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org to Everyone:
Thank you all, have a great 3rd day of At-Large Week!
09:23:11 From Alfredo Calderon - ICANN72 Mentor to Everyone:
Noted, next meeting Nov 3rd.
09:23:17 From Satish Babu to Everyone:
Thanks and bye!
09:23:20 From Gopal Tadepalli to Everyone:
@Justine: Registration Data Access Protocol (RDAP)https://www.icann.org/rdap - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna Universiy, Chennai, INDIA
09:23:21 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone:
Thanks and bye to all
09:23:25 From Raymond Mamattah to Everyone:
Bye from Accra
09:23:28 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone:
Thanks and later all.
09:23:30 From Alfredo Calderon - ICANN72 Mentor to Everyone:
Stay well and safe!
09:23:37 From Greg Shatan to Everyone:
Bye all!
09:23:45 From Isaac Maposa to Everyone:
Thank you.
09:23:58 From Priyatosh Jana to Everyone:
thank you all