Kathy Schnitt:Welcome to the At-Large Future Challenges Working Group call on Monday 25 August 2014 at 18:00 UTC
Kathy Schnitt:Agenda: https://community.icann.org/x/2wTxAg
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Ariel and Happy Monday to you.
Ariel Liang:Thank you Kathy!! Happy Monday :)
Ariel Liang:Welcome Ron!
Heidi Ullrich:Hi All
Ron Sherwood:Hi, Kathy, HI , Heidi... I am on another conference at this time... I will be with you as soon as possible ... Happy Monday from me too:)
Kathy Schnitt:Thank you Ron
Ron Sherwood:Hi, Ariel
Ariel Liang:welcome JJS!
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:Thanks Ariel and Kathy. Hello All!
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Oliver
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Alan
Alan Greenberg:Hi. On bridge now.
Ariel Liang:Hello Alan!
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:Hi Evan!
Fatima Cambronero:hello Evan, everyone
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Fatima
Fatima Cambronero:thanks Kathy!
Fatima Cambronero:Ron, I was in that webinar as well
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Avri and John
Narine Khachatryan:Hello everyone!
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Narine
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Affirmation of Commitments: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/affirmation-of-commitments-2009-09-30-en
Evan Leibovitch:oops sorry, accidentally lowered peoples hands. please reraise. I have JJ and Avri
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Expert Selection: https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2014-08-19-en
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2014-08-14-en
Ariel Liang:This infographic https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/assets/process-infographic-14aug14-en.pdf
Ariel Liang:?
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:Staff: that would be Action Item 1.
Kathy Schnitt:Welcome Robin
Evan Leibovitch:Front page for the FCWG is here https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Working+Group+on+Future+Challenges -- it needs some updating
Robin Gross:thank you!
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@action items: thanks Staff!
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:The diagram of the staff proposal is on: https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/assets/process-infographic-14aug14-en.pdf
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:oops Ariel sorry I didn't see you have already put the link <blush>
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Alan: if you're talking about the ICG, yes it will meet in Los Angeles.
Evan Leibovitch:I agree that TRUST is an overriding concern, and the necessary end-result of ICANN A&T efforts
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Alan, @Evan: trust, +1.
Alan Greenberg:JJ, I was talking about the CG for Accountability - not sure what acronym it will take on, presumably not ICG to keep it differnet from the NTIA transition CG.
Evan Leibovitch:I had hoped that Hollly, the TG4 moderator, might be able to participate here. Unfortunately she could not attend.
Alan Greenberg:I can talk on TG4 if you wish.
Evan Leibovitch:OK,
Evan Leibovitch:I see OCL's hand up
Evan Leibovitch:Then Alan's followup
Heidi Ullrich:Post-ATLAS II Workspace: https://community.icann.org/display/als2/Post-ATLAS+II+Activities+Workspace
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Olivier: that's quite a consistent trend in ICANN.
Alan Greenberg:Whoever is doing it. Please do not change hands-up to microphones.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Well --- I have been on enough groups that had "advisors" that ended up deciding on borad directions because they were seen as "the experts" thus of a higher knowledge as anyone else.....
Robin Gross:the "advisors" are members of the coordination group who makes the decisions. so unless there is some reason to think these advisors are not also decision makers, it would be dangerous to presume otherwise.
Robin Gross:I don't have audio, but am happy to type here
Robin Gross:I didn't say they would take things over. My concern is that it is anti-democratic.
Avri Doria:which democracy: the one man one vote, as long as the man own property defniton of demoicracy. what definiton of democracy.?
Robin Gross:the appointment of wise experts to rule over the people is moving in the wrong direction. decisionmaking power should reside with those who are subject the system.
Avri Doria:it is not to rule over. it os to particpate equally.
Robin Gross:as decisionmakers
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Experts will ave all the time to spendon the process. We're seeing that those with the most time to spend on a group, effectively end up giving direction (shepherding) the group in the whatever direction
Avri Doria:the board decides not anyone else. and the board is (s)elected, but that is nother kettle of fish.
Robin Gross:the decisionmakers over the final recommendations is the coordination group. sure the board decides it all, so it loses on both counts for being anti-democratic.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Ideally it should have been for the ICANN Accountability & Governance Coordination Group to select Experts and/or advisors, if they wish to do so
Heidi Ullrich:ALAC R3 White Paper Workspace: https://community.icann.org/display/alacpolicydev/At-Large+Future+Challenges+R3+White+Paper+Workspace
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:also the question was asked whether the Advisors will be paid or not. Unknown at this point, but probable that they would not be paid
Robin Gross:I agree, Olivier. that is where the appointments should have come from. that would be democratic.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:but imagine this: advisors paid by ICANN to determine ICANN accountability. Terrible optics. Terrible outcome. No accountability at all.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Robin: agreed
Alan Greenberg:Membership it CC group is simply a matter of sending an e-mail to accountability-ccg-members@icann.org
Avri Doria:they get paid?
Alan Greenberg:Sept 15 is a target. Not nec a requirement
Alan Greenberg:Names selected by the SO/AC/SGs for the Coordination Group are encouraged to be submitted to the Cross Community Group prior to its 15 September meeting.
John Laprise:Too many unknowns: the individuals involved and than their biases and preferences will determine the group dynamic. What is the mindset of the expert? Of the group? We can talk about the potential pitfalls and potentially draft a whitepaper to circulate among the group and the expertes to raise their awareness, but they will, at the end of the day, make that determination.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Avri: the question was asked and the asnwer was "we do not know"
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:"wo do not know... probably not..."
Avri Doria:so to presume they are, seems a bitt off.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:"Cross Community Group prior to its 15 September meeting." ---> this remains to be confirmed
Robin Gross:I like the trust theme
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Evan: yes, something about Trust, transparency and accountability.
John Laprise:+1 trust
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Avri: I am not presuming they are. But the question was asked and the reply was "well, we don't know" and that already is worrying because the correct answer should have been "of course not, it would be aconflict of interest"
Avri Doria:the board gets paid.
Avri Doria:as i remeber very few of us argued that momney menat conflict of interst on a non profit. what has changed?
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Avri: and as a result, they need to act in the best interests of ICANN -- it's in the bylaws
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:so the Board is not conflicted
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:but then the Board is not part of this process, apart from havinga liaison
Avri Doria:as long as it is known, it i sa known interst. like all the other prfit motives people bring into icann.
Robin Gross:the board also approves the charters at the beginning and also decides which group recommendations are to be implemented.
Avri Doria:experts, as global users, are stakeholders. they are just a stakeholders of a differnt kind
Avri Doria:And Aln, you know how much i hated that defintion of FACT
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Alan: agreed. And that's exactly why we should not limit ourselves to what some want to impose as THE facts.
Alan Greenberg:@Avri. yup. mee too
John Laprise:so not to throw in a wrench but if we are talking about trust: what % of internet users actually recognize ICANN as an entity? what % of internet users understand ICANN? We're talking about a percentage of trust among the latter group, right?
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Alan: my use of the word "research" needs to be refined. We need to give a high-level definition, orientations. Not arguing about facts.
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Alan, our "founding fathers" were right when they founded. But now is now.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Robin: the exact concern we had in the ATRT2 is that the ATRT2 recommendations are non binding. So when you mention that the Board has to approve which recommendations are to be implemented, you imagine the nervousness.....
Jean-Jacques Subrenat:@Evan: exactly.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:thankfully we made it clear that it would be very unwise for the Board to be picky about ATRT2 recommendations when the Chair of the Board was part of the ATRT2
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:plus the NTIA signatory of AoC also in the group
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:but the question was indeed raised
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:no --- nobody knows how the recommendations of this Accountability process here are going to be implemented, process or used.
Alan Greenberg:FAQ says they go to the Board who must give a compleling rationale for not following. Pretty much the same as ATRT
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:but the nervousness I have acout the structure is that we saw in the ATRT2 that some were trying to add prioritisation to recommendations, where they woudl argue that the most serious of recommendations were so difficult to implement, they'd have no bandwidth for it now & would recommend we put this off 'till later.
Robin Gross:to be fair, California corporte law does not allow a board to blindly accept recommendations of another group. since the board is legally responsible.
Heidi Ullrich:Apologies for the very late notice! There are a lot of Doodles out currently!
Fatima Cambronero:thanks Evan and everyone. Bye
Robin Gross:thanks, folks!
Narine Khachatryan:Thanks all, bye
Ariel Liang:Thank you all! bye bye!
Ron Sherwood:Bye all
