Aug 06, 2012 Yaovi Atohoun: I suggest that we move the third WHEREAS to the 1st position .
Aug 06, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Have made the changes, Yaovi.
Aug 07, 2012 Darlene Thompson: I would suggest the following re-write of the first two paragraphs: WHEREAS the Internet is an International network of networks, owned by no single nation, individual or organization. The INTERNET CORPORATION FOR ASSIGNED NAMES AND NUMBERS (“ICANN”) is mandated to lessen the burdens of government and promote the global public interest in the operational stability of the Internet; WHEREAS ICANN is a Californian Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation; I am suggesting these minor modifications because it is usual in any legal document to define any acronym on the first instance that it is used, not further down in the document itself.
- Aug 07, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: You are right Darlene, and thanks for picking that up. I have made the suggested amendments to the Text. In my hurry to do as Yaovi suggested, I had forgotten to make those changes. What you see now as paragraph 1 was initially paragraph 3.
Aug 07, 2012 Carlton Samuels: I'm thinking that the delegated role the ALAC plays in accrediting At-Large Structures - and thusly, in constituting the RALOs - this role requires its own "WHEREAS" in the INTRODUCTION, right after "WHEREAS the role of the ALAC shall be to consider and provide advice on the activities of ICANN,....."Second, think we should also add language that highlights this very important role under Role of the ALAC.
- Aug 08, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Hi Carlton, good comments: The whereas clauses sort of have the effect of Interpretation because they sort of describe the boundaries etc. Have a look at the other post on ALAC composition and see section 3 which is called Role of ALAC, the items listed under this are actually lifted from the Bylaws but i have amended it to read better. At the moment, section 3 has (a),(b),(c),(d). What would your thoughts be if I added another sub -clause, say (e) to include this accreditation role as opposed to creating a new Whereas (because if we did it for one role, one could argue that it should be done for the rest of the roles)? See if you and others can also pick up other roles that we have missed in this first rough draft text. Be good to hear what you think.I agree with the above statement.
Aug 09, 2012 Eduardo Diaz: Sala: I do not know where to add the definition assigned to me since the table is part of a comment and not part of the wiki. In any case here is a first draft definition for RESOLUTION: "A formal statement of a decision or expression of opinion put before or adopted by an assembly such as ALAC" - ed
- Aug 09, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Thanks Eduardo, I have added your first draft review.
Aug 09, 2012 Eduardo Diaz: Sala: I saw that you added my comment in the table. Thank you. However, the best way to do this is to put the table outside the comment area so people can add their assigned definitions directly into the table. -ed
- Aug 09, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Unfortunately, I still do not know how to put the table outside the comment area so that people can input directly. Hence, my telling them to send it to us and we'll input for them.
Aug 13, 2012 Anonymous: My comments for "rough cosensus" are as follows: "Rough consensus" does not require that all participants agree although this is, of course, preferred. In general, the dominant view of the group shall prevail. (However, it must be noted that "dominance" is not to be determined on the basis of volume or persistence, but rather a more general sense of agreement.) Consensus can be determined by electronic mail, online balloting, written balloting, or any other means deemed convenient and accurate by the group. Note that 51% of the group does not qualify as "rough consensus" and 99% is better than rough. It is up to the Chair of the ALAC to determine if rough consensus has been reached. (This definition of "rough consensus" is substantially similar to that found in paragraph 3.3 of RFC 2418).
- Aug 13, 2012 Anonymous: Oh, and this comment ws made4 by Darlene Thompson
- Aug 13, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro Thanks Darlene.
- Aug 25, 2012 Alejandro Pisanty: How close can we get to an IETF "hum" in defining rough consensus? How does it work online and offline? When is the timestamp applied to a "rough consensus" decision? Face-to-face meeting or electronic - email, forum, etc.?
Aug 08, 2012 Cheryl Landon-Orr: We need to understand the difference between the need for LIMITED deffinitions and a Glossary of terms (which already exist in ICANN) So terms refering to acronyms of ICANN componant parts like GNSO, ccNSO, ASO, GAC, SSAC etc., should simply be glosarry noted with hyperlinks to the authratatove text/ web pages used by ICANN and NOT subjected to any "tweeking" by us... and +++ to Alans points on use of time and rehashing of matters already group (or ALAC) decided upon for removal or change...
- Aug 08, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Excellent points. For now we are going through the review as part of the process. We will flag that which the community has already decided on removing, although in hindsight this could have been done by revising the RoP then and making the amendment immediately after the resolution was reached and saving the amended RoP with a footnote to say that it had been removed via resolution X. We will not have to go over that particular definition again unless the community chooses otherwise.
- Aug 09, 2012 Rinalia Abdul Rahim: The At-Large Advisory Committee (ALAC) is defined in the ICANN Bylaws (Article XI, Section 2, Part 4) as "...the primary organizational home within ICANN for individual Internet users. The role of the ALAC shall be to consider and provide advice on the activities of ICANN, insofar as they relate to the interests of individual Internet users. This includes policies created through ICANN's Supporting Organizations, as well as the many other issues for which community input and advice is appropriate. The ALAC, which plays an important role in ICANN's accountability mechanisms, also coordinates some of ICANN's outreach to individual Internet users." Comments/Questions: (1) Is there value in being referred to as the "primary organizational home within ICANN for individual Internet users"? (2) Is the purpose of making this distinction to separate the ALAC from entities within the non-commercial stakeholder groups in the GNSO? Contrast this with the definition of the Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC) as a body that considers and provides advice on the activities of ICANN as they relate to concerns of governments, particularly matters where there may be an interaction between ICANN's policies and various laws and international agreements or where they may affect public policy issues. A parallel to this GAC definition for the ALAC could be (based on edited extracted wording from the Bylaws): (Option 1) The At-Large Advisory Committee (ALAC) is a body that considers and provides advice on the activities of ICANN that relates to the interests of individual Internet users. (Option 2) The At-Large Advisory Committee (ALAC) is a body that considers and provides advice on the activities of ICANN that relates to the interests of individual Internet users, which includes all ICANN policies and issues requiring community input and advice.
- Aug 09, 2012 Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro: Thanks Rinalia.
- Aug 09, 2012 Darlene Thompson: Hi Rinalia, I believe that there is value to this statement. The GAC does not consult with individuals or grass roots organizations. Because they are government, they think that they know what is best for their people without any/much consultation whatsoever. Due to the way that At-Large is structured, we can reach many more individuals and grass roots organizations than government would even try to do. As for your second point, yes, I think that was the purpose when that wording was added quite some time ago. Either way, as this is in the ICANN By-Laws, I believe it is beyond the remit of this group to change. Darlene
- Aug 10, 2012 Rinalia Abdul Rahim: Hi, Darlene. Thank you for providing the answer to my second question. For the Group - An explanation on my posting: (1) The Bylaws' definition is provided as is for the use of the DSDT (I am aware that changing the ICANN bylaws is not in our remit - at least at this point in time
) (2) The questions/comments are posed so that the answers can help new ALAC members understand the context of why certain things are the way they are or phrased in a particular way. (3) The options in terms of simplified definition of the ALAC, which is consistent with the Bylaws, is provided to fuel thought. There are many ALAC working documents that require a description of the ALAC in brief and simple terms and sometimes the full definition of the ALAC (as per the Bylaws) may not be useful or effective for communication purposes (Yes, not exactly the remit of the definitions work either, but still worth flagging in my opinion for the record). Rinalia
- Aug 15, 2012 -Yaovi Atohoun: AGM : ICANN's Annual General Meeting (Usually held in the 3rs Quarter -Oct to Dec) Comment: I agree with the definition (ICANN annual general meeting found in ICANN below in section 8.1.h ) . Annual meeting (section 13 in ICANN bylaws) is the term most used in ICANN bylaws. I would suggest: (1) Option 1: in ALAC RoP we use IAGM (ICANN Annual General Meeting) if we think that ALAC as an advisory committee may have also an AGM. (2) Option 2: We use "ICANN AGM" instead of "AGM" in ALAC RoP. Yaovi
Aug 16, 2012 Holly Raiche: Please note, there are three commentds made in the 'Pen Holders' area - which is what I thought we were using - that are not in this space. Further, Alan's latest contribution is on another page. My plea - EVERYONE - please be on the same page. And next question - the comments made, in many cases, suggest different options. For the next call, could we please identify what are the critical issues raised for discussion/resolution, and then deal with them first. And could we please keep to Alan's suggestion - finalise discussion on the actual rules and then deal with definitions (and I support CLO's comment that we should not be defining ICANN acronyms, but just have a link to the ICANN Bylaws/definitions)
- Aug 25, 2012 Alejandro Pisanty: Pen holders, drafters, whoever is empowered and able: please review/replace the use of "roll" instead of "role" or "r<circumlex-accent-o>le" #SpellingPolice
- Aug 25, 2012 Alejandro Pisanty I continue to sense a very fundamental concept that has been drifiting away from the At-Large and some of its constituent bodies and organizations. This is the concept of "Web of Trust" on which the whole design of the At-Large representation and participation was premised since 2003 when we did the Evolution and Reform Process. We substituted the direct election which we had found deeply flawed and untrustworthy and put in its place the structure we are fiddling with now. "W" means the Evolution and Reform Committee which I chaired, and all credit for Esther Dyson and Denise Michel who actually did the institutional design. The whole point is that the rest of ICANN, and we in the At-Large, know who we are talking to: who they are, what and how many they represent, and that they are not ghosts, bots, zombies, puppets, sock puppets, lackeys, fictions, figments of the imagination... or all of the above, as is suspected of Jeff Williams at different times (this is a kind of Godwin's law mention for this forum.) Is this principle embodied strongly enough in our norms and rules? If not, all detailed drafting is anatomy and our problems will remain, as always, in the physiology.(and yes, "Web of Trust" in its original context of security is passé, but I don't think we have obsoleted the concept here; rather very much the contrary and the tests to which it is subjected every day are strenuous.) Alejandro Pisanty
Aug 25, 2012 Rudi Vansnick: I fully agree with Alejandro. If I may add my perception and remarks, principals of the ALAC and the fundamental mission and goal seems to me fading away. Memberships of NGOs very often requires full attention and continuous incentives to keep them interested. Is ALAC a membership oriented structure or has it other grounds wherein members have some role to play ? That's one of the reasons why I brought up the idea to make a good distinction between Member and Delegate. The 2009 summit has illustrated an important interest into the work and topics handled by ALAC. Of course, many ALSes were invited to come to Mexico and had travel support organised by ALAC and ICANN. Since then, it looks as if the attention and participation of many ALSes faded away. Question that remains : is this due to lack of interest in ALACs activities or is this due to other factors ? Perhaps while doing all these word gymnastics, we should also focus on appetizers for ALSes to be more participative and feel they have a space they are respected in. So far I have not seen any "definition" or "term" in this part of the work we are doing. Just my 2 cents of input and expression of concerns. Rudi Vansnick
- Aug 25, 2012 Rudi Vansnick: I would suggest to make a distinction between Member and Delegate. If I'm not wrong, all ALSes are member of the At-Large Advisory Committee, while the Delegate is an elected member with voting rights in the At-Large Advisory Committee. A member in this case must be seen as an organisation representing a group of people, while an individual from within an organisation will be chosen as a Delegate to the ALAC.This would, I think, help outsiders to better understand the differences and allow them to see how the membership of ALAC is composed.
Aug 27, 2012 Alan Greenberg: I believe that we decided that we would be using the term Member to describe the 15 people who sit on the ALAC. And that we would no longer use the term Delegate which was a hold-over from the UN General Assembly. The other definitions will have to conform with these decisions and not cause additional confusion.
- Aug 29, 2012 Anonymous: No ALSes are MEMBERS of the ALAC. They are members of the AtLarge. The members of the ALAC are the 15, seated according to the ICANN bylaws.
- Aug 29, 2012 Darlene Thompson: I agree with the above statement.
- Aug 29, 2012 Cheryl Landon-Orr: Correct and these misinterpretations of things is why we NEED to outline them clearly in the Sec A of our new ALAC Rules...
- Aug 29, 2012 Cheryl Landon-Orr: Rudi Alan is correct at earlier work points we have agreed the term Member of the ALAC will be applied (and defined). Delegate like Assembly and of course the dreaded Rapporteur are in the 'To Be Removed From Use' set of terms that are in the current rules... SO to help here I might go in and annotate those terms with than "stamp" => 'To Be Removed From Use'
Aug 27, 2012 Sergio Salinas Porto: Creo que en el parrafo"Asamblea se entiende cualquier reunión o conferencia, o de pie, órgano integrante de la ALAC, así como las sesiones de la Asamblea General de una Organización Regional At Large" habria que dividirlo en: Reunión Plenaria, Asamblea General Ordinaria y Asamblea General Extraordinaria, el termino Asamblea para todo lleva a confusiones. El termino Delegado, creo que no es bueno. Me parece que seria mas adecuado el de Representante de la Región ya que de esos e trata entre otras cosas este cargo, representar la visión y pensamiento de una región dentro de ALAC.
- Aug 29, 2012 Darlene Thompson: Google translate of Sergio's comment: I think in the paragraph "Assembly means any meeting or conference, or standingconstituent body of the ALAC and the General Assembly of Regional At Large Organization" should be divided into: PlenaryMeeting, Ordinary General Assembly and Extraordinary General Assembly, the Assembly term for all leads to confusion. The term delegate, I think it is good. I think it would be more appropriate the Representative of the Region as such and is among other things this position, represent the views and thoughts of a region within ALAC.
- Aug 29, 2012 - Cheryl Landon-Orr: Darlene makes a good point Delegate could be a defined term where an appointment to something a Work Group Sub Committee etc., is made where there is a Representational (purpose) Roll....
