Zoom chat: 2021-04-21 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

13:55:04 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone : Hi Joanna, Michelle and all
13:55:30 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Hello all, welcome!
13:55:35 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Hi Chokri and Evin!
14:00:18 From Judith Hellerstein to Everyone : Sorry i was late
14:02:37 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : Same here, calendar link but pswd
14:03:24 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone : Hello everyone
14:04:01 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : Welcome everyone to the Consolidated Policy Working Group call today! We will have RTT, to follow along: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
14:06:54 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : agree
14:07:04 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : will forward now
14:07:47 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : lol
14:08:51 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : I note that Joanna's fuller list of suggestions were not added to this list
14:09:22 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Evening/Morning/Afternoon all.
14:09:47 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : To follow along with the RTT: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN [streamtext.net]
14:09:58 From Marita Moll to Everyone : I sent a suggestion re: MSM to JZ just recently:
14:09:58 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone : Please note that ICANN71 is the Policy Forum
14:10:38 From Marita Moll to Everyone : Panel discussion: ICANN's MSM model: making choices that ensure a future The Internet was born in great fanfare -- a long awaited medium which would finally put communications power back into the hands of the public. Only a few elements of that initial euphoria remain. One of them is the ICANN Multistakehoder Model. This model has two unique qualities: It has developed a process that includes all constituencies in decision-making. It also provides some financial support that enables participants to gather for the purposes of community building. Is this a forerunner of a new governance model for an increasingly interconnected world or is it a passing experiment. What are the key challenges to the way the ICANN model currently functions which must be addressed if it is to avoid becoming a historical footnote?
14:10:57 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Politically, it could be a bit iffy given what is happening with Nominet and .UK
14:12:03 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Better policy through chemistry? :)
14:12:28 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone : @jonthan I think that ICANN open data platform from end-user perspective, it could be a good topic
14:12:43 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Happy to recap my proposal/s but not gonna insist here.
14:12:46 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone : We’re. Pulling them up
14:13:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Chokri I spent weeks dealing with ICANN on the inaccuracies and data import errors on the ODP
14:15:58 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @CW Some of the commercialized/repurposed ccTLDs have fizzled. They had great prospects in a pre-2012 round but things changed with the deluge of new gTLDs.
14:15:59 From Chokri Ben Romdhane to Everyone : @John your issue is good reason to start the debate about this platform and how to make some improvements if needed
14:17:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Chokri many of the problems were fixed but the people doing the data import did not understand the quality or mixed data formats of the source CSVs. It was importing all the registry reports from the site. I went back and extracted the old registry report data from the PDFs as well. ICANN doesn't have this older data in the ODP.
14:20:19 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone : CW’s EPDP:
14:20:34 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @CW What happened with Nominet was a revolution and there is a second EGM being discussed to get rid of the rest of the board. It was a major shock to the old board.
14:23:29 From Raymond Mamattah (ICANN70 Fellow) to Everyone : Hi, good evening from Accra, Ghana
14:25:39 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : I'd tend to agree with @Christopher in the sense of the opportunity to weave the GDPR impact on global politics into the "regulatory advancements" session originally proposed by the BC. The EC seems to follow this path also with the DSA packet. NIS Directive is getting an update. The original BC proposal was focused on US consumer protection laws. With the AGM being held in Europe we might want to propose tweaking it.
14:25:41 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Alan @CW Unless it is the impact of ccTLD commercialization on the prospects for new gTLDs?
14:26:25 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : The topic has to be of interest to the wider community as a plenary..
14:26:57 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : global as well as ICANN community
14:28:34 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : ISOC UK England is not an ALS :-)
14:29:45 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Nominet has its members and they decide. (I'm a member but not a registrar).
14:29:52 From Sébastien Bachollet to Everyone : Unfortunately OCL ;)
14:30:23 From Herb Waye to Everyone : Sorry for the late arrival, was on the GSE webinar. Greetings everyone.
14:30:42 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Great to see you @Herb! Welcome!
14:31:14 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone : Thanks always nice to be with you folks
14:31:35 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : Welcome Herb!
14:33:02 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : I thought it was just my audio
14:34:57 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Perhaps the head of Bebo might be a good panelist? (left field thinking)
14:35:16 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : Re: Christopher's first proposal about ccTLDs - was the Framework of Interpretation considered by you, Christopher? https://ccnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/filefield_46435/foi-final-07oct14-en.pdf
14:35:40 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : GAC document is one thing, but I thought the document that sets the rules was the FOI
14:36:11 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : While I believe that it is a good topic to bring up, and I agree with most of Marita’s text, I believe that it is a bit of a stretch to claim that the MSM was there from the beginning - I believe that in the origin the Internet was not associated with multiple stakeholders, it cam up mostly around the time that ICANN was created
14:36:27 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Supporting SeB in that comment
14:40:42 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : <comment>The competition authorities might be horrified/intrigued at the amount of consolidation that has occurred in the last few years with TLDs and with registrars being bought up.</comment>
14:41:23 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : @Marita - I understand your point, I only say that we need to present it clearly and not take the risk of being misunderstood - we have to be aware that in a plenary very different people will have very different approaches
14:45:43 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone : @JMcC - I recall that the EU Commission advised against Vertical Integration at the time.
14:45:54 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : The actual plenary proposal/s must go to Tanzanica as soon after this meeting as possible
14:46:44 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @CW A good move. But the concentration at the top of TLD markets his amazing. Generally the top 10 players have about 80% of the market in some cases. That's beyond Pareto's Law.
14:46:54 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : @CW that was my recollection as well
14:47:03 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Apologies for the heavily loaded message, just trying to keep it brief. I can take any added amount of time to talk in more detail.
14:47:29 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : @JZ and very successfully presented the plenary suggestion as our own At-Large Policy session
14:48:20 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Joanna It gets back to the definition of DNS abuse. That's the problem at the moment.
14:49:10 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : @John - the problem with VI is that while ICANN had some strict rules on Ry about equal treatment of Rar the same does not apply the other way around - and VI opens the door for abuse - and we see the consequences now
14:49:30 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Content abuse is a minefield but a presentation might work. But there has to be a clear line between DNS abuse and Content abuse.
14:50:16 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Roberto Some new gTLDs would never be viable outside a portfolio operation model. The market seems to adapt faster than ICANN and the regulators.
14:50:57 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone : As Roberto said, MSM was not there in the beginning - whether your timing of the beginning is 1969 or 1980’s or even the start of ICANN, when the term was more like “private sector led”. In a way, MSM was born at WSIS 2003-2005 as a reaction to attempts by ITU Russia et al to force the Internet in an intergovernmental straitjacket
14:51:08 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : @John: “Some new gTLDs would never be viable outside a portfolio operation model” - So what?
14:51:22 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone : @ Competition: Even if we do not yet have a Cartel, we certainly already have a Super League. Look what
14:51:33 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : I like Hadia's idea re types of DNS Abuse as an At-Large capacity building webinar?
14:51:47 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : @John, tbh I have been convinced by, among others, the GAC PSWG that the definition of DNS Abuse itself is not an actionable item at this point (happy to link the relevant documents thereto). Effectively, the discussion on definition seems futile at this point, but we do have tech experts who actually do measure it. Maybe shifting the focus from names to numbers (pun intended) there might move us forward?
14:52:33 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Roberto The market changes and was never going to play out the way that ICANN expected. The 2012 round was a solution to the problems of 2005-2009. Consolidation was inevitable or the result would be a pile of zombie TLDs.
14:53:52 From Marita Moll to Everyone : Let's remember that every new media had quite few advocates at the start trying to maintain some public role. eg radio -- we still have some public radio but only because a few people fought for it against all odds. ICANN model is a something like that that people are fight to retain.
14:54:06 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : @Jonathan agree
14:54:08 From alberto soto to Everyone : Sorry, I have to retire to a private meeting. Thanks and goodbye
14:54:31 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Do note we just held an EURALO roundtable with the I&J who (yet again) have their own take on DNS Abuse. Definitions prove tricky. And I know JZ and CLO will appreciate me pointing to _metrics_ as the key to move on.
14:54:39 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Joanna It is difficult to measure (I run monthly web usage surveys) because the terms and abuse types keep changing. The definitions always lag the detection. The numbers might be a good shift but they might be statistical rather than actual.
14:54:51 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : @John - too complicated to do this discussion in the chat - at the next in-person let’s do it over a beer - but the key question is who benefits from what changes
14:55:14 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Roberto Yep.
14:55:51 From Laurin Benedikt Weissinger to Everyone : I have to go; work calling. Thanks all.
14:55:51 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : Deal!
14:56:34 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : @John personally I do share that concern but I am not sure I can offer an effective way out of this issue. I would be inclined to trust the techies there to tell us how they do it. Maybe we can go back from there to see how "their" categories align? I cross community survey of DNS Abuse criteria? Not sure, brainstorming here. Appreciate Steinar speaking up.
14:56:47 From Marita Moll to Everyone : Re: public role in internet governance -- we saw that idea start back at the original WSIS mtg. ICANN model flows from that.
14:59:24 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Five ICANN71 Plenary topics were discussed:
(1) "Public Interest: Is the commercialisation of ccTLDs a threat?" (CW)
(2) "GDPR as a technology - policy implications" (JK) and related: "EPDP and GDPR: a face to face between the ICANN Community and the EU system" (CW)
(3) "NIS 2 and the DNS community (RIPE included)" (JK)
(4) "DNS abuse as a regional policy objective" (JK)
(5) ICANN Multistakeholder Model: Making choices that ensure a future" (MM)
15:00:17 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : I sent to the CPWG group the most recent Bird & Bird memos received in relation to the two topics EPDP P2A team is currently discussing.
15:00:25 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Thank you, Hadia
15:00:41 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : 6) Steinar's proposal: CPH definition of DNS Abuse and the role of the RBLs.
15:01:02 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Sorry to be late. NCAP Group meeting has just ended.
15:01:05 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Joanna Most of the abuse is from hijacked websites (link injection attacks). Basically people set up websites and don't update the plugins. The bad actors then attack these plugins. The link injections go unnoticed by the users and site owners as they are used to build backlinks for search engine optimization. That has overtaken the old site defacements. They still happen but the % is much lower. The problem for techies, is working out whether it is DNS abuse or Content abuse. Then there are scraper sites which copy others and add PPC adverts or a JavaScript redirect to an affiliate site.
15:01:08 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : Five ICANN71 Plenary topics were discussed:
(1) "Public Interest: Is the commercialisation of ccTLDs a threat?" (CW)
(2) "GDPR as a technology - policy implications" (JK) and related: "EPDP and GDPR: a face to face between the ICANN Community and the EU system" (CW)
(3) "NIS 2 and the DNS community (RIPE included)" (JK)
(4) "DNS abuse as a regional policy objective" (JK)
(5) ICANN Multistakeholder Model: Making choices that ensure a future" (MM)
15:01:22 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : Perhaps we can go onto other topics so that Evin can create a proper poll that we can all vote on the topics towards the end of the meeting..
15:01:44 From Heidi Ullrich to Everyone : @JZ: 6) Steinar's proposal: CPH definition of DNS Abuse and the role of the RBLs.
15:01:44 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : carry on with other agenda items while Evin creates the poll
15:02:03 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Joanna That's the minefield. Techies like definitions and with the changing nature of abuse, they end up having to create the definitions. :)
15:02:09 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : Will do
15:03:02 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : Is Steinar going to be asked to go through his proposal?
15:03:56 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : +1 to minefield @John !
15:04:47 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : Thank you all for that very intense discussion as part of our ICANN71 preparation..
15:06:03 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Time well spent IMO I agree @Maureen
15:08:17 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Flushed that topic down the drain...
15:16:24 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : Great Olivier
15:16:24 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Luck you @OCL!
15:17:01 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @OCL have been getting multiple copies of that. Wonder how many records are GDPRed? :)
15:17:11 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Of course, NO ONE could replace Justine!
15:17:17 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : here is the Spam I received:
15:17:19 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : Hello, we secretly sell the global complete Whois database, including website URL, email address, phone number, company name and registration information. The total number reaches 470 million, and the total file size exceeds: 10GB. You can easily find all the information and customer information in the same industry in the world. Internet marketing is easy to obtain. If you are interested in buying, you can reply to the email and we can provide videos, screenshots and sample data. good day! tom
15:17:39 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : EPDP solved. :-)
15:17:49 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Personal names in business email addresses continues to be troublesome under GDPR generally. I run into this issue often in my "day job."
15:19:10 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone : @Greg, yes, but if the registrant says there is no personal info and the registrar has processes in place to address complaints, the assessment is that there is virtually no risk.
15:19:55 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Thanks for chasing this Yrjo
15:21:04 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Is it normal for such documents to be translated?
15:21:16 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : @Alan, I agree it is low risk, but we often end up having to deal with it, because it is technically in scope -- but for business purposes it is dealt with in a light weight manner and not in the same fashion we deal with "real" personal information.
15:21:39 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Noted, thank you
15:23:17 From Sébastien Bachollet to Everyone : I was ready to rank them :(
15:24:40 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Please note we need to answer all Qs to be able to submit.
15:25:28 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : Can we vote for up to two topics?
15:25:41 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Seems we can vote for all with a yes?
15:25:44 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Have ti answer all
15:26:17 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : We might want to decide to vote for one with a "yes" and "no" for others?
15:27:09 From Judith Hellerstein to Everyone : Ok voted for all
15:27:32 From Judith Hellerstein to Everyone : I voted no for some and yes for others
15:27:39 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : I agree with @JZ, let’s do our best - if there are any very funny results we can have a quick doodle with a 2h deadline to rank them
15:29:16 From Judith Hellerstein to Everyone : If the poll did not get my answers i was yes to 4,5,&6 and not to to the others
15:29:40 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : of course one could vote “yes” to all Q, including the “none of the above” - *** JOKE ***
15:30:40 From Hanan Khatib to Everyone : thank you all
15:30:58 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : 5 and 3
15:31:29 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Yup 5 & 3
15:32:38 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : I think it's 5, really. Not trying to get out of the drafting job here but going with the majority vote (70%) would be probably easier? And I'll take the feedback for 2 and 4 into the BC plenary as a proposal?
15:32:48 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone : @ ccTLDs: half of us are concerned: for CPWG future agenda.
15:32:57 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Yes, Joanna
15:33:12 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : perfectly good plan @Joanna
15:33:28 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Great, we're all set!
15:33:32 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : +1 Joanna
15:33:35 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Thanks for the feedback folks!
15:34:25 From Bill Jouris to Everyone : MSR-5 closed months ago. Are they reopening it?
15:34:46 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : Olivier my hand is up
15:35:07 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Noted - thank you Olivier
15:35:25 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : That is a wonderful goal for Justine and myself....
15:36:25 From Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond to Everyone : Enjoy @Greg
15:37:23 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Not enough days in this month.
15:38:17 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : @Greg Perhaps we can form a WG to add an extra day to the month? :)
15:38:24 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Thanks @Gfeg you understood
15:38:36 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Greg *cold fingers)
15:39:21 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : @Cheryl, isn't that a James Bond movie?
15:39:41 From hadia Elminiawi to Everyone : Thank you all - bye for now
15:39:42 From Maureen Hilyard to Everyone : LOL@ Greg
15:39:42 From Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org to Everyone : Next meeting: Wednesday, 28 April 2021 at 13:00 UTC
15:39:42 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : hardly palitable
15:39:48 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Constructive call people, good meeting... Thanks everyone Bye for now...
15:39:51 From YIK CHAN CHIN to Everyone : thanks
15:39:51 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone : Take care everyone, stay safe and be kind.
15:39:57 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone : Thanks and bye to all
15:40:07 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Thank you all!
15:40:08 From Harold Arcos to Everyone : thanks to all,,
15:40:10 From Natalia Filina to Everyone : thanks all! bye to all!
15:41:17 From Roberto Gaetano to Everyone : Bye all
15:41:24 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Thanks all, signing off now, looking forward to the follow up!
15:41:28 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Au revoir!
15:41:35 From John McCormac - HosterStats.com to Everyone : Thanks/Later all