Zoom chat: 2021-01-27 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

10:44:30 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : Welcome to the Consolidated Policy Working Group Call
10:49:56 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
10:55:23 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Hello all, welcome!
10:59:31 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
11:00:10 From Captioner Heather to Everyone : link to streamtext is as follows
11:00:14 From Captioner Heather to Everyone : https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN3
11:00:50 From Vanda Scartezini to Everyone : hi everyone!!
11:01:04 From Dave Kissoondoyal to Everyone : Hello everyone
11:01:08 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Hi Vanda
11:01:41 From Vanda Scartezini to Everyone : hi second time we meet today!!! hope you are healthy!!
11:01:53 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone : Greetings everyone… always nice to “see” you.
11:02:05 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : :-)
11:02:10 From Vanda Scartezini to Everyone : hi Herb. happy new year to you!
11:02:11 From Alfredo Calderon to Everyone : Saludos a todos! / Hello to all! /
11:02:20 From Adrian Schmidt to Everyone : Saludos!
11:02:39 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN3
11:02:41 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone : Thank you Vanda… all the best to you, Jorge and the family
11:04:05 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : I’ll check it off :)
11:04:51 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Yes doing so now
11:07:15 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : All, please comment on the CPWG Charter here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xg0EPXeVsM1SK3mX5sxM0ew6CF6Xi-QMAtd20HRPqBQ/edit?usp=sharing
11:08:11 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : It would be interesting to see the questions.
11:09:03 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : Carlos' agenda item 4. might be a good intro to defining DNS Abuse
11:10:16 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : I have data from the December new/legacy/cctld web usage surveys.
11:11:06 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The demarcation between DNS abuse and content issues is problematic.
11:11:45 From Nadira AL-ARAJ to Everyone : Why not to invite members from the contracted parties to this meeting?
11:12:12 From Nadira AL-ARAJ to Everyone : To discuss the same issue with the wider group
11:13:29 From Nadira AL-ARAJ to Everyone : +1 Greg
11:14:38 From Bill Jouris to Everyone : +1 Jonathan
11:15:25 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : It’s all about the Benjamins.
11:15:28 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : exactly Jonathan - missing payment seems to be the only thing that's of interest re: enforcement, which is very sad indeed.
11:15:39 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : shameful, I should say.
11:16:41 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The fundamental problem is that most data sources depend on reporting problems rather than detection. That's why nobody takes things seriously,
11:17:07 From Nadira AL-ARAJ to Everyone : It is Good that AT-large adopted the wider definition on DNS abuse because ICANN earlier limited the abuse to the technical issues
11:17:31 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : How wide is the definition?
11:18:57 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : @John -- why do they depend on reporting rather that detection? Should this change?
11:20:02 From avri doria to Everyone : Personally I think it will be a wonderful day when the discussions on DNS abuse can go on without recriminations and with some common scope and definitions.
11:20:03 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Olivier The scale of the problem is too large for the resources allocated to it. It is often easier to concentrate on big DDOS events rather than detecting every phishing website or DNS compromise.
11:20:12 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : On a similar note: to inform our position on the PSWG common ground or potential differences Yrjo and I are planning a working meeting for ICANN 70 on DNS Abuse.
11:24:45 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The ccTLDs are also very different in terms of market demographics to most gTLDs. This makes it easier to detect problems.
11:25:58 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : @Avri, agreed - how do we get there though?
11:25:58 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone : I'd like to note, that UK is not using the correct ccTLD. They have to give up ".uk" in favor of ".gb". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_3166_country_codes#UNI2
11:26:12 From Nadira AL-ARAJ to Everyone : @Joanna it is not easy to get a common ground
11:26:49 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Instinctively, the first step should be to quantify and classify the problem of DNS abuse. That would put things on a much firmer footing.
11:27:17 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : @John how do we actually quantify it? The DAAR numbers seem to be too low to be accurate.
11:27:46 From Bill Jouris to Everyone : Perhaps the UK folks have decided that Northern Ireland is going away in the foreseeable future. Leaving just GB.
11:28:41 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan It is difficult but we need an agreed definition and then proceed with collection. DAAR is relying on blacklists and the accuracy of those is quite worrying because they are often e-mail focused.
11:29:41 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : With Northern Ireland, there is a major overlap with the .IE ccTLD. The second most popular ccTLD in Ireland (Republic) is actually .UK with approx. 35K Irish hosted regs.
11:29:50 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : UK pre-dates the DNS. It is plain obvious that the world has to conform to the UK and not the UK to the world. What's ISO? :-)
11:30:42 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : .SCOT and .CYMRU/WALES seem to be for Scotland and Wales but they are geo gTLDs and run by Nominet.
11:31:10 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone : For the record: .uk is on the ISO reserve list. While on the other hand .eu is not.
11:31:33 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Well, those are not completely overlapping terms
11:31:54 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Unfortunately .EU is a gateway ccTLD rather than a real ccTLD in terms of web usage/development.
11:32:31 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone : What item are we on?
11:32:36 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : A gateway TLD is were users go before being diverted to the relevant ccTLD or gTLD.
11:33:26 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The problem with consumer trust with the new gTLDs had to do with people not having heard of the new gTLDs or recognizing them.
11:33:51 From Alan Greenberg to Everyone : What agenda item are we on?
11:34:11 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : (4)
11:34:16 From Alfredo Calderon to Everyone : #4 @Alan
11:34:16 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : @Alan, #4. Carlos just spoke
11:35:28 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The danger is in trying to regulate content and define how a domain name should be used. That doesn't work unless there is a uniform approach across all TLDs including ccTLDs. Getting gTLDs and ccTLDs to cooperate like that would be like herding cats.
11:35:38 From Claudia Ruiz to Everyone : REMINDER: Please state your name when taking the floor, thank you
11:36:22 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Agree @John but the CCT recommended making it easier to create a niche TLD as a place that could market itself as “pure” to consumers and potential registrants
11:37:18 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan Yep. Niche TLDs = low reg volume and high costs. They also compete with ccTLDs and require a lot of marketing resources and finance.
11:38:00 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Exactly, @John. How do we decrease the costs so they don’t drive everyone towards creating a generic string.
11:38:55 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan Decreasing costs won't work if the market isn't there. The new gTLDs were built on the field of dreams fallacy where marketing was not supposed to be necessary.
11:40:06 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : The market has become concentrated in terms of the key players owning multiple registrars. The focus on registrars is wrong.
11:41:00 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : I've been working on producing reports on the key player concentration and their market shares and have .COM resolution at approx. 95% at the moment.
11:41:46 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : @John, resolution is different than registration, I suppose.
11:41:54 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : That's tracking by individual domain name transactions and by ICANN registry report data.
11:42:15 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : And @John, I guess I”m just talking about artificial costs, imposed by ICANN but marketing will always be a cost.
11:42:43 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan Resolution means that I have categorized 95% of the .COM market in terms of hosters/resellers/registrars at a domain name level.
11:42:56 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Ha ha. Lutz. Good luck with THAT!
11:43:35 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan This is the registrar/reseller problem that ICANN has been talking about for years. It reduced the set of hosters from approx. 1.3M to around 3.7K
11:43:52 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone : @John: Back to the root (…. ehm) to the good old times. The world was better before the www.
11:44:02 From Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC) to Everyone : Hi all - apologies for being late I was on another call
11:44:31 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Lutz It was a bit boring at times but a lot more expensive. :)
11:45:09 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : @CW, that will be part of our internal discussions for sure!
11:45:29 From Lutz Donnerhacke to Everyone : @John, I'v grown up in the "never active" .dd area.. It was not expensive. It was impossible
11:45:29 From Greg Shatan to Everyone : Agree with both of Christopher’s points here.
11:45:41 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone : CW +1
11:45:42 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Agree with CW about the changing threat landscape. The current content threats are different to those of five years ago.
11:45:51 From Roberto to Everyone : +1 CW
11:47:12 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : In theory a pharming site could be considered “content.”
11:47:26 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Lutz sounds like the old .IE rules were inspired by it. :)
11:47:39 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone : Thankyou, all, for support and interest in competition, concentration and content.
11:47:58 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan That's the demarcation problem. When does a content site become DNS abuse?
11:49:48 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : And perhaps @John, the real question isn’t a definition of DNS Abuse but revisiting the remit of ICANN
11:51:00 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan It is quite scary given the Section 230 issue and its possible deletion. That would have ICANN moving into a kind of editorial position for the gTLDs if it pursues the content management route.
11:51:49 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : Agree, @John. I don’t have the answers.
11:53:21 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : @Jonathan It would be better to see how the US government moves on S230 before ICANN takes any decision on content management. Otherwise ICANN could be in real trouble if S230 is revoked/modified.
11:54:51 From Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC) to Everyone : you can say we have not really started yet
11:56:22 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : At this stage "Don't Panic" (yet) sounds like good 'advice'
11:57:05 From Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC) to Everyone : with new laws and regulations coming into effect CPs will need to be "future ready"
11:57:14 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Or the phrase from The Outlaw Josey Wales: "Endeavour to persevere." :)
11:58:59 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Well said @OCL ;-)
11:59:59 From Olivier Crépin-Leblond (Internet Society UK England) to Everyone : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On - a bit of history
12:00:22 From Bill Jouris to Everyone : "Don't panic", but don't get complacent either.
12:00:49 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : too true @Bill
12:01:35 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : THAT claim of disincentiviced any approach I dispute... FOR the RECORD
12:02:10 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : HHGTTG does seem to encapsulate ICANN well. :) Though at times it is hard not to feel like Ford Prefect explaining matters to the Golgafrinchams when they decide to use leaves as a currency. :)
12:07:25 From Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC) to Everyone : Thank you Yryo
12:11:56 From christopher wilkinson to Everyone : Obviously on this point I disagree with our friend, Greg.
12:14:38 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Haha sorry so swift :)
12:14:44 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Just on the Open Data Platform, if anyone is using it, the registrar data is patchy and not reliable in some cases.
12:15:17 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Specifically the registrar reports sections. Reports are missing or in correct. ICANN is trying to fix it.
12:15:31 From Jonathan Zuck to Everyone : @Greg and @CW, we need to find a way to keep from constantly relitigating every issue just because we don’t personally agree with the outcome. I don’t know the answer but, at some point, we need to come to a point of rest and advocacy.
12:16:04 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : Rather nice to end before time for once! :-) Bye for now... Thanks everyone!!!
12:16:27 From Bill Jouris to Everyone : Ending early -- thus proving that NOTHING is impossible for us
12:16:33 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr to Everyone : my only problem is the awful hour for me ;-)
12:16:35 From Roberto to Everyone : Agree with @JZ
12:16:41 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone : Take care all… stay safe and be kind
12:16:44 From Hanan Khatib to Everyone : oki
12:16:56 From Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong to Everyone : Thanks and bye
12:17:00 From Vanda Scartezini to Everyone : thanks to all!!!
12:17:01 From Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC) to Everyone : Thank you all - bye for now
12:17:08 From Evin Erdogdu to Everyone : Thank you all for joining! See you next week.
12:17:20 From Adrian Schmidt to Everyone : Bye and Hi from Mildred and Adrian! from frozen Lacombe, Alberta
12:17:36 From Sarah Kiden to Everyone : Thank you
12:17:37 From Lilian Ivette Deluque to Everyone : bye
12:17:38 From John McCormac - author of Domnomics to Everyone : Later all and stay safe