00:59:50 bruna santos: Hello everyone, good morning/afternoon !
00:59:56 Heidi Ullrich: Welcome, All.
01:00:08 Yeşim Nazlar - ICANN: Languages Available: English, Français, Español Participation How-To Guide: https://icann69.pathable.co/participation-tools Mobile App: https://urlgeni.us/ICANN-ALAC Session Token: ICANN-ALAC Browser Link: https://crn.interpret.world/loginlink?token=ICANN-ALAC&lang=SRC
01:01:16 Gisella Gruber: CONDUCT
All participants are expected to conduct themselves on a professional level and will be held to the standards set forth in the ICANN Community Anti-Harassment Policy and Terms of Participation and Complaint Procedure and the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior.
01:02:44 Gisella Gruber: A reminder to please state your full names before speaking for the interpreters and recording purposes.
01:03:16 Heidi Ullrich: Action Items from today’s call will be posted at: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/ALAC+and+At-Large+Action+Items+from+ICANN69
01:05:31 Austin Ruckstuhl: Hi everyone, thanks Ephraim
01:05:51 Herb Waye Ombuds: Greetings from the Office of the Ombudsman. the Ombuds team will be hosting a drop-in virtual office at ICANN69. Details posted on the Attendee/Conversation forum daily. Great to see a session focusing on human rights.
01:07:57 Austin Ruckstuhl: HRIA = Human Rights Impact Assessment
01:14:05 Rafik Dammak: question: what about staff to have labor union and organize themselves in the different offices?
01:14:14 Gisella Gruber: Reminder PLEASE speak slowly to allow for accurate interpretation
01:14:24 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thanks @Betsy!
01:17:10 Stephanie Perrin: We tried to get a plenary session on HR and progress on HRIA implementation. I would be interested in your views on why NCSG was unable to get support for this proposal, since it is clear there is a lot of interest in the topic.
01:18:05 Rafik Dammak: @betsy I had question above :)
01:18:33 Joanna Kulesza: Thank you for that question @Stephanie - is it targeted any any of the speakers? Or are you generally seeking feedback.
01:18:52 Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: +1 Rafik
01:19:42 Joanna Kulesza: I am noting questions and will pose them to our speakers in the Q&A session. Thank you.
01:19:49 Joanna Kulesza: *section
01:21:30 Stephanie Perrin: Thanks Joanna, I think it is a good topic for discussion generally.
01:22:23 Joanna Kulesza: Noted Stephanie, I will be sure to pose it later on.
01:22:44 Ergys Ramaj: @Rafik, Thank you for the question. This (labor union) is not something that came up in the context of the HRIA as a potential issue/solution, but happy to take this back and provide a more thoughtful response.
01:22:50 Gisella Gruber: When submitting a question or comment that you want me to read out loud on the mic, please type your question or comment in English and start with a <QUESTION> and end with a “</QUESTION>” or <COMMENT> </COMMENT>. Text outside these quotes will be considered as part of “chat” and will not be read out loud on the microphone.
01:23:31 Stephanie Perrin: Why s it so hard to get a HRIA? We are of course very keen on getting HRIAs on pops. WE could not even get one on the EPDP work, where clearly the Court will be look on the Charter issues in every case, not just the GDPR. (As has of course been proven by the Schrems !! Case)
01:24:02 Stephanie Perrin: ?Why s it so hard to get a HRIA? We are of course very keen on getting HRIAs on pops. WE could not even get one on the EPDP work, where clearly the Court will be look on the Charter issues in every case, not just the GDPR. (As has of course been proven by the Schrems !! Case) ?
01:24:27 Stephanie Perrin: Pdps, not pops
01:29:05 Alberto Soto: Question: Human rights involve many rights. Which were considered?Question ?
01:30:53 Jonathan Zuck: <QUESTION>Most humans are not registrants, how can we possibly consider a HRIA that does not take into consideration those people who are not registrants but simply individual users of the internet? </QUESTION>
01:32:26 Ephraim Percy Kenyanito: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yuJuDXh_M9dvVhQWsH1pYS2MEpl-I2dDeSrWLy6rOwM/edit
01:33:35 Farzaneh Badiei: JZ, I thought ALAC was working toward human rights: protecting consumers via WHOIS… bringing security and peace to the Internet via ICANN.
01:37:06 June: Thanks Ephraim, here's the blog reviewing the progress of the org HRIA 1 year in https://www.article19.org/resources/icann-one-year-on-from-its-first-human-rights-impact-assessment/
01:38:02 Jonathan Zuck: <QUESTION>Following up on Alberto's question, when I look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html), many of them deal with right that would apply to non-registrant "humans." These include security, attacks on reputation, property and "moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production." </QUESTION>
01:38:45 Austin Ruckstuhl: <COMMENT> ICANN Org used a third party service to conduct their HRIA. The SO/ACs do not have the luxury of paying for external HRIA services. The CCWP-HR is very small with no resources. So that means the only way these HRIA processes will happen is if the SO/ACs or PDPs decide to take them up themselves. The CCWP-HR would be happy to have calls with your community to share knowledge and provide advice but we need community members to champion this work. </COMMENT>
01:40:13 Alberto Soto: +1 Austin
01:41:32 Yeşim Nazlar - ICANN: @ALL - IMPORTANT reminder to please state your names before speaking both for interpretation and transcription purposes.
01:41:33 Jonathan Zuck: +1 Stephanie, big issue.
01:42:52 Farzaneh Badiei: about the rights of all humans on the Internet: human rights impact assessment has to be within ICANN mission. And ICANN mission is narrow and doesn’t include fighting with famine.
01:44:25 Ephraim Percy Kenyanito: Thanks Farzaneh, @Jonathan, FYI- here is the language of the Framework of Interpretation that I referred to: in the presentation (and it clearly limits the HRIA to ICANN mission): https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/ccwg-acct-ws2-annex-3-hr-foi-final-recs-27mar18-en.pdf
01:45:28 Jonathan Zuck: Farzi, (and Ephraim) "security and stability" are part of ICANN's "remit," so we don't need to talk about famine.
01:46:26 Farzaneh Badiei: Security and stability of the DNS!
01:46:47 Austin Ruckstuhl: +1 Farzaneh
01:47:22 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: <Comment> in part reaction to @Stephanies intervention, I guess I tend to think on which is more vital to outcomes here the facilitation and lack of (m)any barriers to inclusion of a full spectrum of diversity (for example) in say PDPs (a High priority in my opinion) or the occasional barrier that we as a more en masse group may come up against (such as the travel and entry to certain countries risk) which I am in no way trying to minimise... <Comment>
01:51:13 Alberto Soto: Question: Many human rights are outside of ICANN's Mission, of course. What were the specific human rights that you considered for policy development, for example? Question .
01:51:16 Ron Andruff: Recommend that those most focused on this work within ICANN check out the human rights, Internet rights, right to be forgotten, etc... aspects developed at RightsCon (https://rightscon.course.tc/catalog/course/rightscon-online-2020) to see broader views on these topics.
01:54:23 Jonathan Zuck: Thanks Ephraim. I can easily agree that ICANN should not be focused on ensuring everyone has enough to eat BUT if we're talking about an IMPACT assessment, we should be looking at the IMPACT of policy on a wider spectrum of rights. To take an extreme example, if some policy of ICANN meant that certain people did NOT have enough to eat, that would still be an impact of the policy, even though looking out in the world for famine is not in ICANN's mission. Again, the focus just on registrant rights is insufficient.
01:54:29 Farzaneh Badiei: Who is speaking if I may ask?
01:54:37 Stephanie Perrin: Just as a privacy impact assessment is an instrument to assess risk, an HRIA does the same for human rights and is a constructive mechanism, to be embedded in procedure, to both facilitate the inclusion of relevant human rights, but to make those procedures efficient and cost effective
01:54:38 Jonathan Zuck: Olivier
01:54:50 Farzaneh Badiei: oh… how could I not recognize.
01:55:37 Stephanie Perrin: COMMENT ust as a privacy impact assessment is an instrument to assess risk, an HRIA does the same for human rights and is a constructive mechanism, to be embedded in procedure, to both facilitate the inclusion of relevant human rights, but to make those procedures efficient and cost effective COMMENT
01:55:53 Austin Ruckstuhl: <COMMENT> Regarding the discussion around what should be included in the HRIA, the HRIA tool we created was designed to be a crowdsourced document. We prepopulated it with specific issues mentioned in the Work Stream 2 documents. Some of the columns in those prepopulated rows are empty so that they can be completed by the specific focus of the HRIA. On the other hand, the community could add an infinite number of rows to the bottom of the list to add new HR issues relevant to the scope of that HRIA. We have an 'implementation' problem so this was our attempt at crowdsourcing the implementation and I think this model would work well for ALAC. However, we (at CCWP-HR) will support you in any method you want to implement." </COMMENT>
01:56:52 Jonathan Zuck: Thanks @Austin. We should go through that exercise.
01:56:52 Farzaneh Badiei: I actually think it’s a great idea to measure the impact of DNS (as related to ICANN mission)on human rights of Internet users. We can see a real picture of how much the DNS now a days have an effect on Internet users.
01:58:16 Nadira AL Araj: Great idea for ALAC CPWG to work on your idea @Farzaneh
01:58:36 Stephanie Perrin: Affordability of domain names is a human rights issue, in that it impacts the right to participate on the Internet.
01:59:07 Stephanie Perrin: An issue we might want to keep in mind as we assess the economic feasibility of the SSAD
01:59:42 Farzaneh Badiei: Is there a two minute timer for each commenter?
02:01:50 Jonathan Zuck: But @Stephanie, it's a balance. The stats show that DNS Abuse has been rampant in super low cost domains. So the question becomes, what is cheap enough.
02:02:20 Alberto Soto: question: Question: Many human rights are outside of ICANN's Mission, of course. What were the specific human rights that you considered for policy development, for example? Question
02:02:31 Olivier Crépin-Leblond: @Farzaneh -- yes there is indeed a time limit
02:02:51 Farzaneh Badiei: Oh good to know Olivier. Thank you :)
02:04:00 Austin Ruckstuhl: Alberto: When we did a HRIA on the SubPros PDP, we solicited help from the members of the PDP and asked them to help us identify issues. So they came with the substantive knowledge of the PDP and our CCWP volunteers used prompts and discussions to draw out what issues/items should be added to the HRIA tool
02:05:37 Jonathan Zuck: Definitely so let's start with the larger group of people whose rights might be affected by ICANN Policy.
02:05:41 Stephanie Perrin: Criminals are bulk users, correct? So of course since the domains are throwaways, they are not going to pay top prices. I am curious as to why ICANN has not looked at bulk domain purchase as an item worthy of control, rather than eg accuracy. If 400 domain names go into activity at once, we know it is for criminal activity.
02:05:55 Nadira AL Araj: There is a framework prepared by the WG and case to case can kick from there
02:07:00 Farzaneh Badiei: Thanks everyone. It was good to see and hear some of you.
02:07:06 Farzaneh Badiei: I have to drop off
02:07:19 Gregory Shatan: I am in the Sub Pro PDP. I don't recall seeing any discussion of the HRIA.
02:07:54 Judith Hellerstein: sorry i have to leave
02:08:14 Jonathan Zuck: Actually, @Stephanie, the contracted parties are VERY resistant to this idea because there are, in fact, legitimate uses for "bulk" registrations, such as IOT. We've previously suggested just a more serious look when a bulk registration is being made and there's a lot of resistance. Margins are tight so anything that slows the process down can have a dramatic impact on profit, as I'm sure we'll learn in the marketplace plenary. It's a sticky issue.
02:08:14 Alberto Soto: I am a volunteer if that group is formed .
02:09:04 Stephanie Perrin: Thanks Jonathan, that is very helpful.
02:10:44 Austin Ruckstuhl: @Gregory Shatan: I’m sure we flew under the radar to a lot of people on the Sub Pros PDP. We tried to solicit support without being too annoying - as we didn’t not have full buy-in from the SubPros PDP group. One of our output documents is here: https://icannhumanrights.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Trial-HRIA-on-ICANN-PDP-Sub-Pros-version-3.3.pdf
02:15:03 Ephraim Percy Kenyanito: Thanks. I used it as an example and not definitely. :)
02:15:20 Gregory Shatan: @Austin, as someone who participated actively in the HR subgroup and the drafting of both the Bylaw and the Framework, I would have thought your radar would have picked me up....
02:17:06 Austin Ruckstuhl: @Greg, We introduced ourselves on several calls when we first joined and invited participation. Perhaps you just missed that first intro call. I was on many calls with you, so I definitely know how active you were. I just assumed you didn’t want to help. :)
02:18:34 Gangesh Varma: Yes Joanna, sorry old hand
02:20:04 Austin Ruckstuhl: But @Greg, I loved your idea of moving the HRIA into another forum that is inherently ‘more cross-community’. If GNSO or any other group wants to take it on, we would support that!
02:20:12 Gangesh Varma: Is it possible or does it make sense to use WS2 budget allocation for HRIA for SO/ACs?
02:20:27 Gangesh Varma: Question <Is it possible or does it make sense to use WS2 budget allocation for HRIA for SO/ACs? > Question
02:20:32 Jonathan Zuck: Let's find a compromise, for sure. We just want to loop non registrants into the conversation.
02:20:38 Olivier Crépin-Leblond: @Stephanie: Article 3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
02:20:48 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Most of us appreciate a stimulating yet intelligent argument @Stephanie :-)
02:20:50 Olivier Crépin-Leblond: :-) Let's argue :-)
02:21:40 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: @OCL you and I have been doing so for 15 years or so now
02:21:41 Nomiphone: its very challenging especially for curiosity .. i have the intellect to grow but the aggressive people of the community makes its really hard to even focus
02:22:02 Nomiphone: argued.
02:22:04 Olivier Crépin-Leblond: Human Rights is not only Article 19. There are 29 other Articles, thus I think we have only barely touched the surface
02:22:17 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: respectful discourse is the answer there
02:22:33 Nomiphone: reapectful?
02:22:36 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: @Nomiphine
02:22:45 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: respectful
02:22:51 Nomiphone: discourse is misguided
02:23:48 Nomiphone: i was left something i deserved i earned it yes.. but whats mine is mine
02:23:58 Olivier Crépin-Leblond: @Stephanie: I miss our arguments around a drink at the end of the day :-)
02:24:37 Stephanie Perrin: I would be very interested to know what you think has been disrespectful on this particular discussion. It seems to me that this has been a good dialogue, but I am ready to stand corrected if you can demonstrate a problem
02:24:59 Stephanie Perrin: Yes Olivier, I long for the day when we are meeting face to face again
02:25:07 Gregory Shatan: @Austin, it would be worth considering taking it GNSO and the other SO/ACs to re-establish (and perhaps formally charter) the group as something inherently "cross-community" (a term usually used to tag groups that were chartered by SO/AC's beyond only the GNSO)
02:25:24 Nomiphone: the domain problem
02:25:28 Nomiphone: not the discussion
02:25:46 Nomiphone: ive learned so much
02:25:50 Nomiphone: worked so hard
02:25:52 Nomiphone: i loved it
02:26:17 Nomiphone: but i do believe in healthy practices with a little twist
02:26:17 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Excellent!!
02:26:22 Nomiphone: im excited
02:27:21 Gisella Gruber: Interpretation tool required
02:27:25 Nadira AL Araj: Thank you for a vibrant session
02:27:26 Austin Ruckstuhl: si
02:27:38 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Go ahead
02:27:38 Nomiphone: si
02:27:51 Gisella Gruber: We hear you Alberto
02:28:12 Lilian Ivette Deluque: great session
02:28:23 Vaibhav Kamdi: please someone translate
02:28:31 Gangesh Varma: https://crn.interpret.world/page
02:28:45 Gregory Shatan: @Austin, or perhaps we (I.e., our groups) should engage bilaterally -- concrete steps rather than grand plans....
02:28:52 Austin Ruckstuhl: He’s saying that he would be more comfortable if we kept it more specific (not general Human Rights) like Jonathan said
02:29:09 Zakir: thank you Joanna, thanks all.
02:29:21 Nomiphone: not to difficult keep the rush
02:29:22 Sally Costerton: Thank you very much everyone for a very interesting discussion
02:29:29 Nomiphone: just dont blind the kids
02:29:32 Gregory Shatan: I believe the Framework addresses the breadth of HR "issue"
02:29:44 Katambi Joan: Thanks everyone
02:29:46 Satish Babu: Thanks and bye!
02:29:47 Heidi Ullrich: Thank you all,
02:29:48 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank You @Joanna! bye for now!!
02:29:50 Yeşim Nazlar - ICANN: Thank you all for joining, this session is now adjourned.
02:29:50 Matthias M. Hudobnik: thx
02:29:50 Alberto Soto: Thanks!!!
02:29:50 Ergys Ramaj: Thanks, all.
02:29:55 Gregory Shatan: Bye
00:59:50 bruna santos: Hello everyone, good morning/afternoon !