Zoom chat: 2020-11-23 Unaffiliated Individuals Mobilization Working Party Call

12:03:36 From Maureen Hilyard : Sorry Im late
12:03:44 From Gopal Tadepalli : Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
12:04:43 From Michelle DeSmyter : https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=150178126
12:11:39 From David Mackey : +1 Roberto
12:12:39 From Jonathan Zuck : Sorry I’m late. Staff meeting went long
12:13:24 From David Mackey : Thank you Sebastian :-)
12:16:41 From Sarah Kiden : +1 Yrjo
12:16:52 From David Mackey : +1 Yryo
12:17:42 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 Gopal
12:17:47 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : Oh that makes things complicated @Gopal
12:17:58 From David Mackey : oops +1 Yrjo (sorry for the spelling mistake)
12:19:02 From Maureen Hilyard : ALS members are already able to be At-Large Participants by virtue of the accreditation of their ALS.. however non-ALS members have to register themselves into the ICANN system, in order to become At-Large Participants. This is the only difference between the two as we gather more At-Large participants
12:20:13 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Gopal most if not all ALSes have dynamic and changing Membership over time, as they are NOT usually organised to *be* an entity and that entity has some interest in some or wider ICANN Matters and they therefor apply to be an ALS some ALSes (quite a few actually pre date the concept of RALOs I remind everyone!
12:21:08 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : I agree with JZ
12:21:43 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and yes this will be an edge case if it is not and the articulated harms start to come to pass, then it can be reviewed at that time
12:21:44 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : Those ALS members they don't have to apply to be RALO members
12:21:58 From Alan Greenberg : @Jonathan, The answer is * angles per pin head.
12:22:16 From Alan Greenberg : Oops. 8 angels per pin head!
12:23:03 From Sébastien Bachollet : You yes Roberto
12:23:03 From Jonathan Zuck : I would LOVE to understand how a couple people joining a RALO as an individual member would lead to the departure of an ALS. Simply asserting it doesn’t help me to understand.
12:23:06 From Sébastien Bachollet : And thanks
12:23:27 From David Mackey : It’s important not to dismiss the voice of minority views
12:24:14 From David Mackey : lol - last word
12:24:16 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : @JZ I think the whole issue is simply a mater of giving the right terms.
12:25:06 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : Only unaffiliated individuals who do apply to be certified.
12:25:19 From Jonathan Zuck : @David, I agree completely. But simply making assertions, without any support, for a position that, on it’s face, is irrational, is difficult to absorb. I would LOVE more information, a logical explanation, personal experience, ANYTHING that would support this view that the sky will fall if we implement this policy
12:25:33 From David Mackey : @JZ understood :-)
12:27:53 From Michelle DeSmyter : Terminology wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/twINCQ
12:28:20 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : And is several potential risks I suggest that there could be identified a 'trigger point' where a future review might need to be considered...
12:28:39 From Gopal Tadepalli : APRALO ROP 2014: 27.5 Unaffiliated Individual Members 27.5.1 These members are the unaffiliated individuals, including any certified Nomination Committee appointed representatives, to the APRALO who meet the following criteria: 27.5.2 Unaffiliated Individuals must:
12:29:22 From David Mackey : @CLO I hope not. Self-reflection is important for a mature organization … even if it’s a bit painful.
12:29:31 From Gopal Tadepalli : 27.5.2.3 not be a member of a certified ALS. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
12:30:02 From Yrjo Lansipuro : Alan +1
12:30:08 From Gopal Tadepalli : APRALO ROP 2014: 27.5 Unaffiliated Individual Members 27.5.1 These members are the unaffiliated individuals, including any certified Nomination Committee appointed representatives, to the APRALO who meet the following criteria: 27.5.2 Unaffiliated Individuals must: 27.5.2.3 not be a member of a certified ALS. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
12:33:30 From Alan Greenberg : Whether one is "upcoming" or "fading out" may be an apt description, but not a title.
12:34:12 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : +1 Cheryl
12:34:53 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : it is the ICANN Bylaws that take precedence here
12:35:13 From Michelle DeSmyter : Why do we need individual users? https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=151847603
12:35:22 From David Mackey : @Alan A famous Canadian once said “Hey hey my my … It's better to burn out than fade away!”
12:35:27 From Jonathan Zuck : Individual members you mean?
12:35:29 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and they as @Alan explained use Individual Members in RALOs
12:37:10 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Yes the Heading probably needs to be Individual Members in At-Large ;-)
12:37:25 From Jonathan Zuck : Although it might be a debate worth having...
12:37:51 From Jonathan Zuck : And me
12:39:31 From Alan Greenberg : The REASON was , as Jonathan has reiterated, to remove barriers from participation. And having to form an ALS was a definite barrier.
12:40:00 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Works for me @Alan /@JZ :-)
12:40:54 From Jonathan Zuck : Individual members predate the review
12:41:43 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : the Answer is YES it would b=need to be reversed by the Board to do so
12:42:53 From David Mackey : The opportunity is how to organize ALSs and Individual Members in the best way possible to meet the mandate and activities of At-Large
12:43:24 From Jonathan Zuck : I actually turned down a position on the ISOC board to enable me to be an individual member of NARALO
12:43:52 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : it was to be fully implemented after the 1st Review having been an accepted Recommendation and unfortunately at least a of couple RALO dragged the chain so long that it was still *almost* not able to be implemented by the finalisattion of Implementable Recommendations out of the 2nd Review cycle
12:44:27 From JUDITH' hellerstein : I think it is a big hassle to use the wiki from the mobile
12:44:42 From Jonathan Zuck : My position is probably, by now, clear. We NEED to be using Slack or Loomio, instead of email, Skype OR the Wiki. If we want to use the Wiki, we need to do some work to make it easier to use for conversation threads and mobile.
12:44:59 From Alan Greenberg : Jonathan, I have heard a similar comment before (but different details). I would really like to understand that. I see no rationale for it. Unless you were going to be a Chapter member and had to belong to a ISOC chapter that happened to be an ALS.
12:45:39 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : I always have to select classic view for the wiki on mobile @Judith, as the Mobile view is never rendered usefully on my phone OS at least
12:46:33 From David Mackey : +1 Sarah, email is a bit easier
12:46:58 From Jonathan Zuck : @Alan, it’s very possible that I didn’t understand the rules at that point. When an organization, on whose board I served, was merged with ISOC, I had to decide quickly and I didn’t know what I was walking into either in terms of chapter requirement or at-large requirements. Just felt like extra layers of politics.
12:47:01 From David Mackey : The downside of email is that different issues get lost inside email threads
12:47:16 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 @Mackey
12:48:18 From Gopal Tadepalli : e-mail needs a list discipline. This is becoming difficult. Wiki has a longevity that is very useful. Wiki connects easily to related aspects. IMHO, Wiki is the best. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
12:48:32 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Personally I HAT bloody email exchanges
12:48:49 From Jonathan Zuck : You don’t have to do that with either Slack or Loomio
12:48:52 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : I see then as development of argument tools not a RECORDING odf
12:49:01 From Heidi Ullrich : If both the wiki and email are used, It might be useful to indicate in the subject line when an email contains text to post on a wiki (i.e., POST). Staff can then post the text on the wiki.
12:49:03 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : +1 Alan
12:49:32 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : @ALAN ONLY if you prefer email as a work mode I and dozens of others do NOT
12:50:34 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : I agree with you here Roberto,
12:50:34 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and the record will show I NEVER not even as ALAC Chair used the singular and old fashioned communication tool as other than a needful or formal form of communication... Just saying
12:50:36 From Alan Greenberg : @Cheryl. Correct. We are different and I AM SUGGESTING THAT WE BE FLKEXIBLE.
12:50:47 From Yrjo Lansipuro : Alan +1
12:51:37 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : just use the wiki as a collation that is fine but it *is* the place that will act as a public archive NOT email LISTS
12:51:57 From Bill Jouris : I'd be fine with the wiki, except . . . I have recurring problems logging in so I can access it. I realize this is just a personal problem, not a general one. But for me it's a barrier.
12:52:21 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and other threaded tools are fine also I use them all and email is (and I get at least 200+ emails a day) the least useful to me
12:52:57 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : in fact email is most useful to me to receive update /digests from my preferred tools
12:53:35 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Exactly @JZ!!!
12:53:40 From David Mackey : @JZ Thread forking is a challenge
12:53:51 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and the wiki is still the currently accepted archive
12:53:57 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : JK why you stopped using Loomio?
12:55:07 From Sarah Kiden : Perhaps we can try the wiki and see how it goes. I will just have to be more proactive
12:55:13 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : ICANN takes some time to start using new tools there is an approved list (which does change as community needs - eventually)
12:55:29 From Heidi Ullrich : I don’t believe that this will be resolved in the timeline of this WP
12:55:32 From Jonathan Zuck : @Nadira, were you referring to me? We did a Loomio pilot that went well and didn’t raise any issues. All that is left now is lobbying ICANN to support it if we want staff support on it.
12:55:46 From Heidi Ullrich : So perhaps flexibility is needed on wiki/email. Staff ca assist if needed.
12:55:54 From David Mackey : Ultimately, the Working Party final report should contain the record of the most important issues discussed by our group
12:56:20 From Jonathan Zuck : Can you resend the links to the various wiki pages? I can’t seem to find it now.
12:56:27 From Nadira AL-ARAJ : Yes, Jonathan, thanks for your reply
12:56:32 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : For the Record the only reason I ever started to use a Wiki was because of ICANN At-Large using one (pre Confluence) that THEN spread in use across ICANN as a preferred tool for dynamic content and use
12:56:46 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : that was 2007
12:56:54 From Alan Greenberg : Jonathan, https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/Unaffiliated+Individuals+Mobilization+Working+Party points to everything.
12:57:47 From Yrjo Lansipuro : We have had this discussion many times. It seems that to reliably reach the maximum number, we have to use the most basic tool
12:58:34 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : not a typo it was back in *2 0 0 7*
12:59:12 From Alan Greenberg : @Cheryl, me too!
12:59:58 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : So we have had this discussion then *how many times* @Alan ? ;-) on that I *have* lost count "=_
13:00:00 From David Mackey : @CLO wiki’s are useful once everyone agrees on how to use them. Unfortunately, I had a bit of a hiccup this morning as I was reviewing the conference call, the emails and the wiki information.
13:00:20 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : I agree it takes time @David
13:00:26 From Heidi Ullrich : Thanks.
13:00:26 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : we need to build that in
13:00:29 From Sarah Kiden : Thank you!
13:01:04 From Esther Patricia Akello : Thanks Roberto and all .
13:01:14 From Hanan Khatib : thank you all
13:01:14 From David Mackey : Thanks Roberto and all too!
13:01:16 From Esther Patricia Akello : happy thanksgiving too
13:01:29 From Silvia Vivanco : Thank you all
13:01:30 From Silvia Vivanco : Bye all
13:01:32 From Hanan Khatib : happy thanksgiving to all
13:01:38 From Seun Ojedeji : Bye