Zoom Chat: 2019-07-10 Consolidated Policy Working Group Call

00:28:22 Leon Sanchez: Hola Lillian!
00:29:04 Hadia: hello all
00:31:20 Jonathan Zuck: I don't see the agenda
00:32:51 Jonathan Zuck: there's also a possible comment on the "new round assumptions"
00:33:40 Holly Raiche: I’m happy to work with Justine on SubPro so it can be removed from the AOB
00:34:23 Holly Raiche: @ Jonathan - the ‘new round assumptions’ were what I was thinking of
00:34:24 Evin Erdoğdu: Thank you @Justine and @Holly, noted
00:35:16 Justine Chew: Sorry, I'm fading .......
00:35:51 Maureen Hilyard (ALAC): Hi all. Connected as an observer this morning. Multitasking while I am travelling.
00:36:25 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Thanks @Holly
00:36:43 Justine Chew: @Holly, ICANN Org preparation assumptions is not something that I want to concentrate too much on, you can take that on if you wish. As far as I am concerned, ICANN Org
00:37:52 Justine Chew: ....ICANN Org's effort is still subject to GSNO policy on SubPro, and SubProWG has said as much IMO.
00:38:55 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Agenda is on: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/2019-07-10+Consolidated+Policy+Working+Group+Call
00:39:48 Holly Raiche: @ Justine/JZ - CW has also expressed concerns about some of the SubPro issues - limitation on numbers per ‘round’, SSAC advice, PICS. We do have a policy on saying that there shouldn’t be more rounds unless our (and others) concerns are met
00:39:55 Justine Chew: @Holly, I prefer to focus on the key areas within SubPro which are of interest to At-Large like ASP, Public Interest, Objections, Asssessment in Rounds, etc. but let's take this offline.
00:40:22 Alan Greenberg: There was a small group talking about accuracy yesterday. We ended with agreeing to disagree.
00:41:51 Holly Raiche: @ Justine - those are some of the areas of concern. Recommendations from the CCRT are others. Mainly, the concern is that the GNSO outcome doesn’t reflect the concerns of other SO/ACs
00:42:20 Leon Sanchez: It seems that there is someone’s mic which is not muted
00:42:25 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Can you mute your line unless your presenting please
00:44:22 Holly Raiche: My understanding of GDPR was against individuals having access - which we acknowledged. Are we changing our position?
00:44:45 Justine Chew: @Holly, yes I know, but I think we need some structure in discussing issues and steps forward.
00:45:02 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: The cases are linked from the Agenda page
00:45:16 Holly Raiche: @ Justine - agree.
00:46:14 Marita Moll: Yes, I thought individual access arguement was already resolved - so why are we revisiting it
00:46:55 Holly Raiche: Thanks Marita. If we are talking JUST about commercial organizations, then have we defined the term and what information is involved
00:46:56 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: So the ALAC supports a dark WHOIS for end users? I don't recall that this was the case
00:47:31 Holly Raiche: @ OLC - That is what the GDPR pretty much requires - and we acknowledged that
00:47:43 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: the GDPR does not require that at all.
00:48:17 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Personal data is blanked out. Not company name.
00:48:34 Alan Greenberg: Wholesale access is prohibited. Access by individuals with a valid reason is not prohibited. Whether the system can be structured to allow such access (without a reasonable accreditation group) is another matter.
00:49:17 Marita Moll: Fraud prevention is clearly an issue, but access should be through an accredited group -- I thought that was agreed
00:49:25 Alan Greenberg: Olivier, according to the policy approved in Phase 1, the Org field may well be blanked out. Not required by GDPR but regardless.
00:50:38 Holly Raiche: Thank you Alan - my point. And my reading of GDPR was that individuals would be REALLY difficult if not impossible to agree. What we are talking about was how to define an ‘accredited’ group - which is what we are talking to Rod about
00:51:39 Holly Raiche: From what Hadia is saying is that access is to a ‘commercial’ organization. Has that been defined and if so, how.
00:52:03 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: My own feeling is we need to do everything we can to defend the interests of end users. The rest is open to discussion with others on the EPDP
00:52:16 Alan Greenberg: Pllease scroll to next case.
00:52:19 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: if we start by sinking access for end users, then I really do not know what we are fighting for.
00:52:22 Holly Raiche: And further, are we talking about an accredited group access, or individual access and just to commercial organizations
00:53:03 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Case 2 is an accredited group access.
00:53:11 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Case 1 is end users direct access
00:53:25 Alan Greenberg: Section numbers need to be corrected. Starting from a)
00:53:46 Holly Raiche: This is one of the cases Rod was talking about - but it wasn’t consumer organizations, it was groups - accredited somehow - who are in thee business of fraud detection.
00:58:42 Greg Shatan: Hi all! Sorry to be late.
00:59:28 Harold Arcos: Aplgs for late connect,,
00:59:33 Holly Raiche: Agree with Alan on that - individual access would be REALLY difficult to argue.
01:01:19 Marita Moll: + 1 Holly
01:01:48 Holly Raiche: + Alan
01:03:04 Eduardo DIaz - NARALO: Can we talk to Rod and see if we sync both cases?
01:03:21 Holly Raiche: Agree Alan - we do need to support Rod and their cases. Also yes, well stated on law enforcement. It’s just that it is easier to argue.
01:03:48 Alan Greenberg: @Holly, Supporting SSAC is not an issue.
01:04:15 Alan Greenberg: To be clear, we are generally in alignment with SSAC.
01:04:56 Holly Raiche: @ Alan - I assumed it isn’t - just reminding everyone that SSAC are doing a lot on the issues we are discussing - which we clearly support
01:05:04 Glenn McKnight, Naralo: Just a reminder that Raoul Plommer will holding his GDPR for Citizens in Montreal, he developed a workshop funded by Government of Finland and Beyond the Net . This workshop will be held from 10 to 12 on Nov 2nd at the Montreal Co Work Centre and lunch will be served. Registration at https://forms.gle/g99qgBshzEbExYyL7
01:05:30 Glenn McKnight, Naralo: it will not be at the Montreal Convention centre
01:06:24 LILIAN IVETTE DE LUQUE: thanks Glenn
01:07:04 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: @Eduardo: we are talking to Rod & synching cases, hence why the focus is on the two cases which Hadia has presented
01:07:10 Holly Raiche: Good point Hadia. It may be that individuals who are particularly involved in fraud prevention/detection should have access.
01:09:00 Holly Raiche: Agree Alan
01:09:33 Marita Moll: Yes, we should stay away from even suggesting individual access
01:10:40 Alan Greenberg: @Marita, individual access IS valid. But automating is is highly unlikely.
01:11:00 Alan Greenberg: yOU WOULD HAVE TO ESTABLISH CREDIBILITY FIRST.
01:11:10 Alan Greenberg: Oops - sorry for caps.
01:12:09 Judith Hellerstein: my other meeting ended earlier
01:13:39 Marita Moll: There is currently a case in Canada where someone was able to pull off an identity switch with the tax department -- using a sorts of data that must have been acquired illegally -- social insurance #, etc. It is possible to create an illusion.
01:14:01 Holly Raiche: Thanks to Alan and Hadia
01:14:15 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: At the top of the hour I will need to attend another call/zoom room though I will stay in the audio channel here for this call, so forgive me re asking to be put in que(s) for any intervention(s)
01:14:45 Greg Shatan: There will be individual requests for Registrant data. The question is how they will be handled. Clearly the requestor needs to be validated, which is no easy task.
01:16:51 Marita Moll: Work track 5 has been going through scenarios for months. We don't seem to be moving forward.
01:17:56 Marita Moll: I think that's a good idea. We could, at least, solidify our own position.
01:18:31 Marita Moll: -- which is a little vague
01:19:02 Bartlett.Morgan: Forgive me but I have to drop off on the hour
01:19:42 Marita Moll: They don't have show any intended use
01:20:12 Marita Moll: It bothers lots of others, believe me
01:21:02 Holly Raiche: @ Marita - a legitimate comment that needs to be part of the mix of discussion
01:21:05 Greg Shatan: Consider .GOLDEN as an example, as well as .NILE.
01:21:19 Holly Raiche: @ Greg - why Golden?
01:22:23 Marita Moll: Because it is a general term -- lots of places called golden but also not a word suggesting a place. Came up in the call this morning
01:23:12 Holly Raiche: I think ‘Outback’ falls into that category
01:23:29 Marita Moll: Yes, @ Holly, agreed
01:24:22 Greg Shatan: .Nile is less general — we need to look at a range of examples to understand how to proceed.
01:25:12 Greg Shatan: The Outback Steakhouse chain might have some thoughts about .OUTBACK.
01:25:37 Greg Shatan: (Which is not to say I support their thoughts...)
01:29:12 Abdulkarim Oloyede: yes thanks judith
01:29:49 Greg Shatan: I initially thought you were referring to Andrei Kolesnikov, @Judith....
01:30:14 Judith Hellerstein: no Abdulkarim otherwise known as AK
01:30:44 Greg Shatan: So many AKs in At-Large....
01:30:46 Marita Moll: questions could be around sustainable financing
01:31:32 Marita Moll: Oh -- sorry, I was referring to the root server item
01:31:50 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: AbdulKarim Oloyede
01:32:29 Evin Erdoğdu: Thank you @Holly, noted for “Proposed IANA SLAs for Publishing LGRs/IDN Tables”
01:32:53 Evin Erdoğdu: Evolving the Governance of the Root Server System?
01:33:07 Dev Anand Teelucksingh: apologies have to leave the call
01:33:22 Greg Shatan: @Holly, that is due July 19.
01:33:37 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: @Evin: please add him to RSSAC comment. And AbdulKarim Oloyede, please start by making comments on the WIKI page focussing on the issue
01:34:16 Greg Shatan: So not much time for the IANA SLA comment.... (insert hair on fire emoji)
01:34:36 Abdulkarim Oloyede: @Olivier OK
01:35:05 Evin Erdoğdu: Noted @Olivier
01:36:09 Holly Raiche: @ Greg - I’m aware of the timeline but am on holidays so have a bit of time to do the reading…
01:37:36 Jonathan Zuck: i'm here but not heard
01:38:32 Hadia: the sound is fade
01:38:53 Evin Erdoğdu: Noted @Greg, thank you
01:39:27 Holly Raiche: Yes - welcome back
01:39:59 Greg Shatan: Happy to PPT for discussion!
01:40:09 Holly Raiche: We could use the template you originally sent us
01:41:07 christopher wilkinson: Leaving the call. Thankyou, All. CW
01:42:05 Greg Shatan: @Alan: Understood. I won’t use the pen unless needed.
01:43:03 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: yes please do change thevnomenclature re this drafting/ issue shepherd/ pen holding etc.,
01:43:41 Greg Shatan: Well-informed silence is an option, if the fundamental bylaws proposal is acceptable.
01:43:58 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: especially in the light of the group consensus building nowvdonevwithin this WG
01:44:12 Jonathan Zuck: Exactly. come with recommendations before drafting anything
01:46:00 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: veey true @OCL
01:46:48 Greg Shatan: Thanks for all the feedback!
01:47:34 Holly Raiche: Agree with OCL - big change - with financial implications
01:48:02 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: can we not create an opinion basedon OCLs reviewvand the comments in on the wiki so far from me and Fouad
01:48:34 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: time ticks on... and we have discussed in other meetings now
01:48:56 Marita Moll: It would seem to be a relevant use of ICANN resources
01:49:17 Marita Moll: -- not owned by governments
01:53:30 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: it is a core function
01:53:45 Marita Moll: So @ Cheryl -- we should not talk about sustainable resourcing of the root servers. I am not comfortable with that.
01:53:55 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: @Alan: LOL
01:54:03 Holly Raiche: Agree with Alan - WAY more important than new gTLDs
01:54:10 Fouad Bajwa: agree with what’s been said so far
01:54:37 Alan Greenberg: Can you please put my name down as being a contributor to this.
01:54:45 Evin Erdoğdu: @Alan noted
01:54:48 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: no I stated we should do so @Marita if needs be at costs to other support
01:55:38 Marita Moll: I can hardly think of a more important end-user issue
01:55:46 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: but at this stage note a concern that resourcing is an important issue
01:55:57 Hadia: certainly it is an important, critical function
01:56:14 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: we are in agreement @Marita
01:56:22 Marita Moll: No that's not what I said.
01:57:29 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: lol
01:59:40 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: IRP-IOT --- https://www.icann.org/public-comments/irp-iot-recs-2018-06-22-en
02:01:41 Hadia: Thanks Olivier
02:02:30 Alan Greenberg: My question (tongue-in-cheek) is what does this have to do with the Internet of Things? (or asked another way, why are we determined to continually use words and acronyms in multiple conflicting way?)
02:03:05 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: hence why I sent the link out ASAP :-) Seriously confusing acronyms....
02:03:32 Holly Raiche: @ Alan - you don’t seriously expect us NOT to use multiple acronyms!
02:03:51 Greg Shatan: As a long-time member of the IRP-IOT, I highly encourage others to join the group. There are deeper issues than simply revising arbitration rules...
02:03:57 Marita Moll: Regarding my AOB item on technological issues, I have already circulated my idea on the list -- so maybe we can just talk about it there.
02:06:12 Marita Moll: Good points @ Alan.
02:06:26 Alan Greenberg: WIth due respect, we MUST factor in those who presume conspiracy and the process must be queaky clean.
02:07:13 Eduardo DIaz - NARALO: Need to moveve to another meeting. Thanks.
02:07:32 Marita Moll: So perhaps vetting by the community would be appropriate
02:08:10 Holly Raiche: @ Alan - I really like the term queaky clean
02:09:20 Alan Greenberg: @Marita, Not sure how we could do that and do it quickly and effectively.
02:09:20 Leon Sanchez: Thanks Olivier
02:09:33 Greg Shatan: The cheese curds in poutine are queaky.
02:09:37 Leon Sanchez: I am open for any doubts or concerns you might want to raise on this issue
02:10:00 Greg Shatan: Thanks, all!
02:10:02 Leon Sanchez: @Alan agree in cleanliness and transparency
02:10:27 Leon Sanchez: I have to leave the call now
02:10:35 Leon Sanchez: Thanks everyone!
02:10:42 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: ok bye for now then....
02:10:45 Greg Shatan: The assumptions doc has been actively discussed in Sub Pro.
02:10:59 Greg Shatan: With concerns....
02:11:26 Hadia: thank you all bye for now
02:11:32 Jonathan Zuck: and part of our concern is that they are looking to borrow 10s of millions to implement a system based on assumptions pulled out of a had
02:11:53 Jonathan Zuck: pulled out of thin air
02:12:46 Holly Raiche: Thanks everyobe
02:12:47 Albert Daniels: bye all
02:12:48 Marita Moll: Wheww.... got through it all (almost). Bye for now
02:12:49 Evin Erdoğdu: Thank you all!
02:12:52 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: bye
02:12:52 Alberto Soto: Thanks, bye bye!!!
02:13:03 Roberto: Bye!