Zoom chat: 2022-01-12 At-Large Consolidated Policy Working Group (CPWG)

00:24:19 Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org: https://www.streamtext.net/player?event=ICANN
00:26:16 Herb Waye Ombuds: Greetings all… Happy New Year
00:28:56 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Think it was hijack attempts rather than hijacks.
00:29:28 Eduardo Diaz - NARALO Chair: Thanks for the clarification
00:30:48 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Thank you Alan, I’ll follow up with Holly and Jonathan
00:30:49 Jonathan Zuck: Happy to volunteer. I can't recall if I did before
00:30:59 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Have noted Steinar and Michael Palage
00:31:03 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Thanks Jonathan
00:31:20 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Correct
00:33:06 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: See: At-Large Workspace: EPDP Phase 2A Policy Recommendations for ICANN Board Consideration - https://community.icann.org/display/alacpolicydev/At-Large+Workspace%3A+EPDP+Phase+2A+Policy+Recommendations+for+ICANN+Board+Consideration
00:35:33 Marita Moll: I think it is a good idea to send in such a reminder. Can't always assume that the connections will be made.
00:35:43 Jeffrey Neuman: But to be fair, they all voted in favor of the report
00:35:50 Roberto Gaetano: just a small minority… 11/21 :-)
00:35:59 hadia Elminiawi: @Greg makes sense
00:37:01 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Makes sense to go with the Hadia and Alan comment though
00:37:23 hadia Elminiawi: just reassuring what we had in our comment
00:37:47 zBerry Cobb: BC/IPC voted no on P2 report: https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/gnso-council-motion-recorder-24sep20-en.pdf
00:38:32 Jeffrey Neuman: @Alan - right
00:38:39 Jonathan Zuck: Part of that is the complexity of the process. Saying you want what little was on offer is not the same as believing it's enough.
00:38:50 Jeffrey Neuman: It was decided that it was better for the report to go forward to the board than to vote it down
00:38:54 Jeffrey Neuman: Which is so weird
00:39:10 Jeffrey Neuman: @Jonathan - exactlt
00:39:13 Jeffrey Neuman: Exactly
00:39:16 Greg Shatan: @Jeff, Stockholm syndrome
00:39:21 hadia Elminiawi: counting the numbers - it is certainly not a minority
00:39:22 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: indeed @JZ
00:39:27 Roberto Gaetano: @Jeff one can have some dissent, but not enough for voting against the whole document - but if there are many relevant details, it would make sense that the Board takes them into account, even if the document is approved
00:39:27 hadia Elminiawi: +1 Alan
00:39:28 Jeffrey Neuman: The question is whether it is better than nothing….
00:39:37 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Noted
00:39:43 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Excellent @Alan/Hadia
00:39:58 Chokri Ben Romdhane: +1Alan
00:40:07 Jeffrey Neuman: @Roberto - absolutely which is why what Alan said made sense. But I was responding to Greg’s implication that there were more that didnt support the report than that did
00:41:54 Jonathan Zuck: Link?
00:41:55 Roberto Gaetano: @Jeff - OK
00:42:44 Jonathan Zuck: Ridiculous
00:42:52 Vanda Scartezini - Brazil: wow
00:43:13 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: 140M$? That woke me up
00:43:15 Matthias M. Hudobnik: That’s crazy these number ranges for ssad
00:43:15 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: :-)
00:43:29 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: Gold ink?
00:43:37 Jonathan Zuck: Even the low numbers are ridiculous
00:43:38 Matthias M. Hudobnik: 
00:43:38 Greg Shatan: $$$ figures are from Dr. Evil. ("One Bill-ion Dollars"!)
00:43:54 Matthias M. Hudobnik: Indeed
00:44:16 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: not when that sort of cash flow effect ALL of ICANN's activities anf focus
00:44:55 Chokri Ben Romdhane: I have a question in my mind : lets suppose that the SSAD implementation will take in account the NIS2 future recomandations, and a new legal initiative proposal will be in cob
00:45:16 Chokri Ben Romdhane: In contraste with the NIS2
00:45:56 Jonathan Zuck: Also ridiculous
00:45:57 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Are we going to review the SSAD again
00:46:06 Jeffrey Neuman: 2029
00:46:29 Jeffrey Neuman: I really hope I am retired by then ;)
00:46:42 Matthias M. Hudobnik: Who will implement it? Which entity?
00:47:00 Jeffrey Neuman: @Matthias - unspecified
00:47:30 Michael Palage: Making the definitive call would likely have an impact on its role as a controller
00:47:31 Matthias M. Hudobnik: I see
00:47:41 Matthias M. Hudobnik: Thx @jeff
00:49:15 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The estimates of usage seem to have been arrived at by throwing darts at a darts board. It is like the wonderful estimate of first year new gTLD registrations.
00:51:56 Jonathan Zuck: They seem like the latter. Even the USG wouldn't spend this kind of money on something like this.
00:51:58 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The phrase is "Social Science Numbers".
00:52:21 Gopal Tadepalli: FYKI: ICANN Is hosting a webinar on 18 January 2022 at 1500 UTC to provide the community with an update on the System for Standardized Access/Disclosure (SSAD) Operational Design Phase. Registration Link: https://icann.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_k3B0h3B7QUyPZnejK_E50w - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
00:52:39 Michael Palage: The RFI did ask respondents to provide cost estimates, to date ICANN has not shared any information from the RFI responses
00:52:51 Sivasubramanian M: SSAD by this design and name or by any other, when designed and when the implementation takes effect, ought to sit on top of the legal layers of Registry / Registrar's legal obligation. If well designed, the Ry/Rrs should be in a postion to say, "We aren't (mostly) liable to GDPR", talk to SSAD.
00:52:57 Steinar Grøtterød: But there must be a “reason” for ICANN ORG define this as very complex. Anybody know?
00:53:24 Matthias M. Hudobnik: How are they able to get the figures without knowing who will implement it?
00:53:34 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Steinar I wonder if ICANN knows what it is doing with these projections?
00:53:36 Jonathan Zuck: $20mil seems pretty high for how it was ultimately defined.
00:55:20 Sivasubramanian M: Like a webiste, it can be a $1 website design or a billion dollar design, depends on the features, depends on the security aspects, depends on the completeness of the implementaion of components.
00:55:31 Jonathan Zuck: I'd be interested to see what sort of companies were bidders. Were they all like Lockheed or Anderson?
00:56:32 Sivasubramanian M: Any one who submitted a lower bid than even the 20M projected by ICANN might not have anticipated the design components
00:56:44 Sivasubramanian M: We are at the "rough" phase
00:56:53 Sivasubramanian M: its terribly approximate
00:56:59 Jeffrey Neuman: @Siva - I do not think that is a fair assessment
00:57:25 DANIEL K. NANGHAKA: ICANN has a lot of unpublished data
00:57:28 Jeffrey Neuman: But without seeing the details, we will always be speculating
00:57:33 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Was there any quantification of the data by ICANN and the operational lifetime of this system or was it a "piece of string" RFI?
00:57:53 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: SO it is still "watch this space"
00:57:54 Sivasubramanian M: @Jeff I think so. I am not asserting that this is right, and it can't be asserted that it is wrong either
00:57:57 Jeffrey Neuman: @John - None of that information is public
00:58:18 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Jeff That's what worries me.
00:58:32 Jeffrey Neuman: @john - it worries me as well
00:59:13 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: and most projects also provide for "variations"(at least those I used to contract for and that *often* increases costs (never seen too many reduce to under budgets
00:59:13 Jonathan Zuck: The higher ones are often the ones that fail and become huge embrassments.
00:59:24 Matthias M. Hudobnik: Indeed, thxs alan!
00:59:34 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Yes with a cloud system it's very easy to estimate the global costs of any solution and in no time
01:00:12 Gopal Tadepalli: System for Standard Access/Disclosure to Non-Public Registration Data Operational Design Phase Scoping Document At: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/ssad-non-public-registration-data-odp-scoping-25mar21-en.pdf - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:00:26 Chokri Ben Romdhane: So I'm not surprised to see the costs provided by the org
01:00:33 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Cloud hosting isn't a solution as much as a means of delivery. Without the specs and data requirements, it is all a much of a muchness.
01:00:52 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: ballpark figures, as wide as a ballpark
01:02:51 Gopal Tadepalli: India has lower software development costs on paper. However, in practice I find that usually it is an International Contract that include Indian partners / subsidiaries. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:07:47 Jeffrey Neuman: There is no distinction between IGOs
01:08:11 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Excellent point.
01:09:00 Jeffrey Neuman: Once an IGO meets the definition, it doesnt matter how long it has been an IGO, what it does, how important it is, etc.
01:09:37 Jeffrey Neuman: At the end of the day, the question is whether a Registrant that loses a UDRP case has the opportunity to be heard on the merits.
01:09:52 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: It would be a good thing for IGOs to have their own gTLD. ;)
01:10:10 Jeffrey Neuman: @John - In theory, they do (.isn’t)
01:10:15 Jeffrey Neuman: (.int)
01:10:24 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Jeff Yep. :)
01:10:42 Jeffrey Neuman: But who is the registry for .int?????? ICANN is
01:11:45 Jeffrey Neuman: @Alan - how did you get the luck of being all things WHOIS/Registration Data
01:12:03 Roberto Gaetano: Just for curiosity, how tight is the correlation between an International Organization as referred by @Yrjō and an organization that qualifies for a .int domain?
01:12:42 Jeffrey Neuman: IGOs apparently didnt like the definition used for INT
01:12:52 Jeffrey Neuman: So they advocated for a much broader definition
01:13:15 hadia Elminiawi: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f0Y6y3hD-trpPCaHXVRHZ23RRT7L3if_iy1B7-dZS1M/edit
01:14:03 hadia Elminiawi: I just posted the google doc.
01:14:13 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: There is considerable disquiet in the domain investor community about prospective IGO landgrab.
01:14:44 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: The IGOs might try to grab existing registrations in other TLDs.
01:14:52 Marita Moll: operations, finance and budget cttee. (ofb)
01:15:06 Roberto Gaetano: Thanks @Jeff, but I also believe that .int include organisations that are not at all established by international treaty, so the difference might be wider - maybe worth having a closer look
01:18:04 Jonathan Zuck: @Robertso, I didn't think that was the case with INT. Thought they were all treaty orgs
01:18:09 Sivasubramanian M: Retired or otherwise, when is a ccTLD not a ccTLD?
01:19:06 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: There is already a .INT,a .NGO and another one., I think.
01:19:15 Roberto Gaetano: @JZ I remember having bumped into a case in the past, but I will have a closer look - glad if I will be proven wrong
01:21:04 Sivasubramanian M: Just thinking aloud: for a ccTLD to be considered a country TLD, the country must formally own it, and stand for the managment of it, (whether it manages it inhouse or engages managers) ????
01:21:29 Yrjo Lansipuro: According to RFC 1591, the sTLD int is reserved for international treaty-based organizations, United Nations agencies, and organizations or entities having observer status at the UN. However, there are I think some non-IGOs that were delegated before the strict application if the rule
01:21:45 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: And if a country ceases to exist, it creates a bit of a problem for those still using the ccTLD.
01:22:01 Sivasubramanian M: ... otherwise, even if fully operational, it would be appropriate to transfer status from ccTLD to gTLD
01:22:23 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: also .CS ( now .CZ and .SK)
01:22:26 Lutz Donnerhacke: .su is an other example
01:22:57 Lutz Donnerhacke: But .dd is not. (To my personal sadness)
01:23:16 hadia Elminiawi: we lost Olivier
01:23:18 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Agreed @OCL (lost him)
01:23:29 hadia Elminiawi: yes
01:23:29 Roberto Gaetano: @Yrjö that’s what I thought - so there is no hope to have the two things aligned
01:23:36 Yrjo Lansipuro: I think .su is still alive
01:23:56 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: Very much so. It is still used for websites and nameservers.
01:23:56 Marita Moll: You said "perhaps I should.....
01:24:20 Lutz Donnerhacke: Oliver was hit by the "do not speak longer than 1h" Policy and automatically shut down
01:25:11 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Perfect covering of the process @Hadia Thanl you
01:25:15 Steinar Grøtterød: ;; ANSWER SECTION:
nic.su. 3600 IN NS ns8-fwl2.nic.ru.
nic.su. 3600 IN NS ns4-fwl2.nic.ru.
nic.su. 3600 IN NS ns3-fwl2.nic.ru.
01:27:02 hadia Elminiawi: Thanks for the clarification
01:27:39 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: removal from the ISO list is not really a great method. Impact assessments really should be necessary.
01:28:38 hadia Elminiawi: the trigger events are out of scope
01:28:47 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: There are also redelegated/repurposed ccTLDs.
01:29:37 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Siva like .TV, .CO etc?
01:29:46 Roberto Gaetano: @JmcC indeed, the CS was a big mess as ISO-3166-MA did not think at ccTLDs
01:30:19 Roberto Gaetano: … when they reallocated it to Serbia-Montenegro
01:30:49 Sivasubramanian M: @john. It was a general comment, absolutely with no specific ccTLD in mind
01:30:54 Lutz Donnerhacke: .tv and .co are still ccTLDs
01:31:04 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Roberto And there are still hosters/registrars who span those borders and it can be hard to figure out which country they are associated with,
01:31:19 Lutz Donnerhacke: .eu is not?
01:31:39 hadia Elminiawi: Let me take another look - I would also seek Barracks opinion
01:31:50 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Lutz Yep but they are effectively known as repurposed ccTLDs. For SEO purposes, they are treated as gTLDs by the search engines.
01:32:16 hadia Elminiawi: I sent an email and a message to Barrack
01:32:23 Sivasubramanian M: Such a change of status could actually free the operator from country processes, apart from freeing the country of association on the DNS plane
01:32:31 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Lutz Don't think that .EU is in ISO (also .UK may not be either)
01:32:32 Lutz Donnerhacke: @John, they have a very bad history, yes.
01:32:41 hadia Elminiawi: I shall provide my final comments end of this week
01:33:14 hadia Elminiawi: Then it is up to all of you if you want to go ahead with it
01:33:19 Sivasubramanian M: ... to some extent as desired by the country
01:33:28 Roberto Gaetano: @JmcC EU is in ISO-3166
01:33:55 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Roberto Must have been a backronym addition.
01:33:59 Lutz Donnerhacke: .uk should be .gb … ICANN does allow this Special handling for contractural fights … "So you insist on following the rule here? Does that mean, that to give up on .uk?"
01:34:50 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: See: https://twitter.com/ICANN/status/1480630979807125505
01:34:52 Roberto Gaetano: backronym? what’s that?
01:34:55 Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond: .UK pre-dates ICANN. Impossible to back track
01:34:56 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Lutz It predates ICANN. The problem would be if the UK becomes a republic in the future. That's a major headache for over 10M .UK registrants.
01:35:25 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Thank you Vanda
01:35:31 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Roberto A phrase coined to give something retroactive credibility.
01:35:35 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: See: https://twitter.com/ICANN/status/1480630979807125505
01:35:37 Lutz Donnerhacke: Oh, if UK gives up on monarchy they have much more pressing issues ….
01:36:24 Gopal Tadepalli: @Vanda: Thank you. I will try and attend these sessions. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:36:47 Roberto Gaetano: @JmcC EU was in ISO-3166, but as reserved code - there are many reserved codes
01:37:08 Jonathan Zuck: And the lack, of UA really undermines ICANN's credibility, unfortunately. What's the point of adding new domains if they cannot be used.
01:37:13 Alfredo Calderon (ICANN73 Mentor): Here is the link - https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/regional-universal-acceptance-training-2021-01-06-en?fbclid=IwAR1uLHJ2aG1DScs8uONqocL8ivTzvzU9FI_Sc1OWRxsceyKoM5UI53UaaX8
01:37:18 Herb Waye Ombuds: Take care all… stay safe and be kind
01:37:20 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Bye for now then... Stay safe people...
01:37:24 Chokri Ben Romdhane: Thank you all have a good night
01:37:30 John McCormac - HosterStats.com: @Lutz It could see Northern Ireland reunified with Ireland, Scotland declaring independence and England and Wales becoming either the successor to the UK or independent themselves.
01:37:36 Roberto Gaetano: that’s also the reason why the Euro could have a code starting with EU*
01:37:39 Raymond Mamattah: Thank you all. Bye
01:37:39 Claudia Ruiz - ICANN Org: Wednesday 19 January at 13:00 UTC
01:37:42 Bill Jouris: But lack of UA is something that, bewond exhortation, ICANN really can't do much about
01:37:44 Vanda Scartezini - Brazil: thank you all - productive meeting.
01:38:02 Pari Esfandiari: thank you everyone
01:38:04 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN Org: Thank you all!
01:38:20 Alfredo Calderon (ICANN73 Mentor): Stay well and safe!