Zoom Chat: 2020-09-23 Unaffiliated Individuals Mobilizations WP

09:47:45 From Claudia Ruiz : Welcome to the Unaffiliated Individuals Mobilizations Working Party Call
09:58:49 From Syuzan : Hello to everyone from Armenia
10:00:01 From Roberto : I will also have a quick check on the action items aa part of the housekeeping at the start of the meeting
10:00:08 From Heidi Ullrich : Welcome, All
10:00:39 From Heidi Ullrich : Action Items will be taken at : https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/Action+Items%3A2020-09-23+Unaffiliated+Individuals+Mobilizations+WP
10:01:02 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Thx Heidi
10:02:57 From Gopal Tadepalli : Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:05:57 From Carlos Raul Gutierrez : no comments
10:08:08 From Jonathan Zuck : What's the POINT of being an individual member if already a member of an ALC. To get to be involved directly rather than being chosen by the ALS?
10:09:35 From Carlos Raul Gutierrez : @Zuck what if the leaders of the ALs fail to consult with their constituents? The off can be on the ALs side as well
10:09:47 From Carlos Raul Gutierrez : the *proof
10:09:53 From Nadira AL Araj : @JZ, we are talking about individual members in the RALOs not ALAC
10:12:10 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : It is an important point IMO that with this Rule it is specific to being a Member of an ALS *IN* any particular Geo Region...
10:12:27 From Maureen Hilyard : @JZ I agree that ALS members get to contribute by virtue of the application made by their ALS. I can't understand why they would disregard any opportunity to invite the views of others from within their group and decide to go on their own
10:13:10 From Laura Margolis .UY : @Maureen good point
10:15:28 From Nadira AL Araj : +1 Eduardo
10:17:37 From Judith Hellerstein : The discussion of the ALS happened in the ALS committee, this committee only concerns the issues of individual
10:17:44 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : @Maurren: More individuales (and ALS) = more bodies to work on ICANN
10:18:53 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : We have just completed the ALS criteria and expectations work in the ALS Mobilisation Work Party activity of course so our work needs to be complementary and cognoscente of this
10:19:00 From Judith Hellerstein : It is not about running for office or for voting
10:19:12 From Maureen Hilyard : I am not against unaffiliated individuals who cannot belong to an ALS... and therefore we are encouraging more bodies to work on ICANN. But for me the work of ICANN in the regions is also important.
10:19:51 From Syuzan Marukhyan : + 1 @JZ in terms of joining as an individual member
10:19:56 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : I do not see what an Individual from one region can not be part of other regions as well.
10:20:08 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : what = why
10:20:41 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : If the main idea is that they contribute
10:20:45 From Judith Hellerstein : It is because people want to have their say without their voice being muffled
10:21:09 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : @ED of course that is why the specificity even under the current rule is important as well
10:21:18 From Jonathan Zuck : But Judith, since anyone can participate, how is one's voice muffled?
10:21:40 From Maureen Hilyard : I would like to think that individuals from AP or any region, would be interested in supporting what is happening where they live and giving their region the benefit of their knowledge and support of ICANN's work
10:22:11 From Alan Greenberg : Sorry to be late.
10:22:19 From Bill Jouris : If you want to be a member of an ALS where you don't reside, just to spend time there, why do you care whether you also have a say in their decisions?
10:22:34 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : @MAurren and on top of that provide inputs in other regions as well if that is their desire
10:22:36 From Jonathan Zuck : why do they have to do that?! That just doesn't sound true as a practical matter
10:23:29 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : The history here as to why the rules are what they are should not of course stop us proposing changes in our work party outcomes, but I guess we do need to be aware of why some of these criteria and rules exist now
10:24:32 From Alan Greenberg : Roberto, may I have a few minutes to discuss a Bylaw issue?
10:24:33 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : I do like the approach of clarification of the Purpose/criteria 1st before we propose to make changes to existing criteria however
10:25:01 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : That would be useful IMO @ALan
10:25:14 From Judith Hellerstein : @jonathan, if the ALS does not agree with that person than they cannot speak. They can participate but they cannot speak for their ALS.
10:25:50 From Jonathan Zuck : They can't speak "for their ALS" but they can speak. Sorry I'm still not getting it.
10:26:11 From Jonathan Zuck : Right, Alan. That's ridiculous.
10:26:17 From Gopal Tadepalli : All rules ought to ensure that "there is no anonymity on the web". No ambiguity in tracing an individual. IMHO, we need to look into this perspective of the present rules. To my mind as such they are robust on this aspect. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:26:48 From Judith Hellerstein : only the ALS primary and secondary members can speak for their ALS.They can work and other projects but cannot speak on behalf of their ALS
10:26:58 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : This is of course why the push ever was to ensure that UIM's can be recognised in all RALOs...
10:27:21 From Eduardo Diaz - NARALO : +1 ALAN
10:27:37 From Nadira AL Araj : +1 Alan
10:27:47 From Jonathan Zuck : @Judith, it's obviously not about "speaking" because if you go individual, you're not speaking for your ALS either. There's still something missing, like the ability to vie for travel or something. Sorry to be blunt.
10:28:44 From Judith Hellerstein : in naralo travel on behalf of crop or on discretionary projects is open to all
10:29:06 From Alan Greenberg : I missed the first part of the meeting, so don't quite know the context of Judith's intervention. But any member of an ALS can contribute and participate on their own behalf - not formally representing their ALS.
10:29:32 From Judith Hellerstein : however, only the leadership travel to icann meeting as supported traveller unless that person cannot go and then we have opened it up to all who submitted an application to vie for that funded slot
10:29:37 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Gopal, within At-Large none of our recognised Members (either UIM's or Members of ALSes operate as anon... all are (with all due respect to various privacy issues and concerns) are identifiable and indeed contactible
10:29:59 From Judith Hellerstein : At Alan exactly, that is what I was saying
10:30:50 From Maureen Hilyard : I agree @JOnathan - why are people so afraid of contributing as an ALS member just because their view may differ from that of others in that ALS - people are entitled to participate in At-Large as they want to - the diversity is appreciated by At-Large and it would be a shame that their ALS did not appreciate their views as well
10:31:21 From Nadira AL Araj : Exactly Roberto,
10:31:31 From Gopal Tadepalli : Cheryl: Anon on the Application Layer is not the same as Anon at other layers in the ISO - OSI Reference Model. IMHO, we are now good at the application layer. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:31:32 From Laura Margolis .UY : In my case, i wasn't a member of any ALS from my region (LAC) so i had to wait until individual users were accepted in LAC region in order to join...
10:31:41 From Jonathan Zuck : That's just it, @Maureen. I don't think any one is afraid of contributing. I think this is primarily about money which is a different problem to solve.
10:31:44 From Judith Hellerstein : I was not saying they cannot participate, they can, but unless they are appointed, they cannot speak for their ALS. They can speak on behalf of themselves
10:33:02 From Maureen Hilyard : @JZ Im not sure I understand how money comes into how a person contributes in At-Large
10:33:03 From Gopal Tadepalli : My perspectives stem from "Human-in-the-Loop" aspects in complex systems. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:35:58 From Jonathan Zuck : The only reason that someone would want to get out from under their ALS is to gain access to funding of different sorts. Maureen. "Contribution" is easy, getting "supported" is less so.
10:36:50 From Judith Hellerstein : @jonathan, no that is not true. Their ALS may not want them to speak
10:37:00 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : WHy should that come 1st AK??
10:37:05 From Bill Jouris : Maybe they don't want to get out from under. Just one less meeting to attend. (Just a thought.)
10:37:09 From Judith Hellerstein : they do not want to be tied down and so that is why they join as an individual
10:37:46 From AK Oloyede : just to make sure that individual members is not just about numbers but active participation
10:37:53 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : for me it is about maximising opportunity for engagement in a predictable manner that people can understand and navigate easily and fairly of corse
10:38:28 From Roberto : @JZ - I don’t think that unaffiliated individuals could have expectations for funding - unless they also get in a leadership position
10:38:41 From Jonathan Zuck : But NO ONE is "tied down." People can contribute, they can speak their mind, etc. as an ALS member. They can't speak FOR the ALS but that's irrelevant. The ONLY reason that you might want to be a member of an ALS AND an individual member is to gain some kind of support that would otherwise be the decision of ALS leadership. Money.
10:39:06 From Maureen Hilyard : If people are experiencing difficulties with their ALS then it would make sense that they would resign from their ALS and join as an UIM. Some have done that in the past.
10:39:15 From Roberto : But then to have an UI in a leadership position while at the same time member of an ALS will be a borderline condition that we need to discuss
10:39:34 From Judith Hellerstein : Yes Roberto I agree
10:39:46 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : That is indeed critical to the discussion
10:40:08 From Jonathan Zuck : @Maureen but I might like to be an ISOC DC member, for example, because of the other work they do but I don't agree with who they are designating as reps to ICANN so I want to participate directly.
10:40:43 From Judith Hellerstein : @JZ, not everyone is like you. Some ALSes tell people they cannot speak unless they state they are speaking as themselves and not for the ALS and also say that they are not coming in as an ALS rep or one that the ALSor the RALO appoints
10:41:18 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : and JZ that is exactly one of the prime reasons or Rationale for why UIMs being able to be recognised in each Region is so very important
10:41:32 From Jonathan Zuck : @Judith, "like me?" I'm not sure I see the problem with saying you're speaking for yourself. That's what most folks do anyway.
10:41:45 From AK Oloyede : I think ALS's hardly speak execpt for voting
10:42:06 From Nadira AL Araj : +1 JZ, I'm a member in ALS member of APRALO but I have term to describe this status.
10:42:07 From Judith Hellerstein : @AK that is not true
10:42:32 From Bill Jouris : Could we ask tht those expressing the opinion of an ALS state explicitly that they are doing so? And therefore we could assume that an individual was speaking for herself.
10:42:36 From Nadira AL Araj : I have no term to describe. …..
10:42:51 From Maureen Hilyard : I would have a problem with an ALS that "assigns" people to ICANN. The point about an ALS application is to bring in members. It is difficult to understand why people would accept that condition of belonging to such an exclusive group.
10:42:54 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 Bill!
10:43:53 From Nadira AL Araj : @Maureen, when ALS bring members to ICANN what do you describe them?
10:43:56 From AK Oloyede : @judith ok maybe when they are making announcements about thier events. can you give example of when?
10:45:49 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Inherit the ALS Mobilisation WP slot as ONE of the possible times in rotation allows for us to sort out time share in rotation anyway
10:46:23 From Laura Margolis .UY : @AK Oloyede members are part of different working groups...
10:46:30 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Roberto can we not agree in the meeting on time rotation however?
10:46:36 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : that seems good practice
10:46:41 From Maureen Hilyard : @Nadira if they are members and align themselves with their ALS then they are ALS members - but they should not necessarily have the same views on a particular issue and as a right can contribute 'in their personal capacity'. They should be able to have their own views.
10:47:15 From Jonathan Zuck : I think this will evolve to use having much different relationships with ALSs than we do with individuals and the two are fairly unrelated. On "organizational" relationship" should be about widespread information gathering and mobilization and an individual relationship is about more in depth work and they aren't really that related to each other.
10:47:32 From Nadira AL Araj : Would be good to have it Monday and rotate Monday on alternative time.
10:47:54 From Judith Hellerstein : No earlier than 1300 UTC
10:47:59 From Heidi Ullrich : Noted.
10:48:14 From Gopal Tadepalli : I agree for Monday and rotate the time. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:48:22 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 Judith on 13:00 as being early. When on the west coast it's 6am.
10:48:41 From Jonathan Zuck : +1 Cheryl!
10:48:59 From Judith Hellerstein : and 5am on Eastern time after we change the clocks
10:49:06 From Roberto : Keep in mind that some AP folks have this call in the middle of the night!
10:49:26 From Judith Hellerstein : I meant after we change the clocks eastern time is UTC-5
10:49:41 From Judith Hellerstein : and West Coast time is UTC-8
10:49:42 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Times should always be set in UTC
10:49:55 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : daylight saving etc., needs to be ignored
10:50:11 From Jonathan Zuck : Happy to toggle. Might move to Sydney for laughs anyway. ;)
10:50:40 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : You would be more than welcome @JZ
10:51:49 From Gopal Tadepalli : The [Individual - Organized Structure] is unlikely to have a simple and all purpose formula. It is just to provide an avenue for Individuals to respect the organization and stretch beyond the specified organizational goals wherever possible. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:52:07 From Jonathan Zuck : Oh, perhaps we need Slack or Loomio? Just saying.
10:52:51 From Judith Hellerstein : @jonathan, yes I agree but we need to keep fighting this fight
10:53:17 From Nadira AL Araj : Thanks Alp, We can also get notifications on our emails.
10:53:45 From Jonathan Zuck : Feels like a TTF issue, not a UIM specific issue
10:54:05 From Judith Hellerstein : Exactly
10:54:28 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : As long as tool use is adjunct to our busy lives and I for one am NOT a great fan of only email as a method to complement convened calls etc.,
10:54:49 From Laura Margolis .UY : skype?
10:55:15 From Jonathan Zuck : Skype is worse than email
10:55:16 From Nadira AL Araj : Yes, we need to have a record of the discussions
10:55:20 From Judith Hellerstein : Would love to use another tool but currently IT staff at ICANN will not allow it
10:55:30 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Agree totally @Roberto minimum barriers to use and EASE for all
10:55:33 From Laura Margolis .UY : I agree but maybe everyone can use it...
10:55:53 From Gopal Tadepalli : During the early days of mailing lists, there used to be a "List Discipline". One who initiates a discussion topic will also summarize the discussions. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:56:43 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : there are still options within the existing parameters
10:56:50 From Jonathan Zuck : Yes TV but that discipline is long gone.
10:57:27 From Gopal Tadepalli : To my mind, for ICANN adhering to "Confluent" may be most productive. There is also ICANN Staff Support. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
10:57:57 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : different tools need to work together as a full kit
10:58:10 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : there is probably not a simple universal solution,
10:58:32 From Jonathan Zuck : There are certainly those who engage in wiki discipline as well but that requires real cooperation and training. Slack and Loomio integrate with email. We're having a theoretical discussion now. Not happening in time for this group.
10:59:04 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : sorry guys i need to go! i will follow up the mailing list : )
10:59:20 From Matthias M. Hudobnik : cu and thx!
10:59:23 From Roberto : Bye Matthias
10:59:45 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Well noted @Alp a set of complementary tools are required
10:59:52 From Jonathan Zuck : No tool is good for editing on mobile. Google docs ARE a useful platform for us, for sure.
11:00:35 From Judith Hellerstein : I am an apology as this is Yom Kippur and so will not be there
11:00:38 From Claudia Ruiz : Next Call Monday 28 September 18:00 UTC
11:00:51 From Alperen Eken : Thank you Claudia
11:01:03 From Cheryl Langdon-Orr : Bye for now then... Thanks everyone!
11:01:06 From Heidi Ullrich : His are at: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/Action+Items%3A2020-09-23+Unaffiliated+Individuals+Mobilizations+WP
11:01:08 From Heidi Ullrich : Many thanks!
11:01:14 From Judith Hellerstein : Please note my apologies
11:01:20 From Laura Margolis .UY : bye!