Page History

  Ron Sherwood:Good  morning all
  Holly Raiche:Good morning
  Sergio Salinas Porto:good morning all!
  Gordon Chillcott:Good Morning, everyone.
  Carlton Samuels:Hello everybody
  Matt Ashtiani:good morning, everyone!
  Holly Raiche:Who is Y
  Y:Hello Everyone
  Allan Skuce:Good morning.
  Y:Willl change it right now. I am Yaovi
  Holly Raiche:Thanks
  Fatima Cambronero:hello everyone
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Hello everyone
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:Lost your audio GG
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:lost the audio in the AC room
  Jordi Iparraguirre:Hi everyone , I was listeing fine but I lost soubnd now.
  Dick Kalkman (isoc.nl):Audio is now OK
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:OK now
  Natalia Enciso:Hello everyone!
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:hearing you now
  Jordi Iparraguirre:audio is ok for me
  Avri Doria:ok
  Michele Neylon:/me waves
  Evan Leibovitch:I'm not using the audio bridge but I can hear fine on the call
  Silvia Vivanco:Hello everyone
  Sivasubramanian M:hello
  Heidi Ullrich:Welcome, everyone!
  Michele Neylon:i'm in
  Michele Neylon:sorry
  Michele Neylon:couldn't see the numbers
  Michele Neylon::)
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:thanks for the document!
  Heidi Ullrich:All ALAC statements, including on the topic of WHOIS, are available here: http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence
  Matt Ashtiani:Affirmation of Commitments - http://www.icann.org/en/about/agreements/aoc
  Heidi Ullrich:WHOIS Expert Working Group: http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14feb13-en.htm
  Evan Leibovitch:still hearaing ya
  Yaovi Atohoun:we can hear you
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Carlton, we are hearing you
  Michele Neylon:I can hear him
  Gordon Chillcott:I hear you, Carleton.
  Sivasubramanian M:we can hear you very clearly
  Lutz Donnerhacke:We here you ... Hallo
  Allan Skuce:Yes. yuo are heard.
  Sergio Salinas Porto:yes ncarlton
  Gisella Gruber-White:@ Carlton - we can hear you
  Silvia Vivanco:Yes
  Volker Greimann:I can hear you
  Patrick Vande Walle:I can hear Carlton
  Holly Raiche:I can hear you
  Evan Leibovitch:So how did Alan escape mute? :-)
  Alan Greenberg:Star 7
  Michele Neylon:oh funky
  Michele Neylon:I just use the mute on my phone
  Alan Greenberg:*6 to mute yourself, *7 to unmute
  Gisella Gruber-White:*6 to mute and *7 to unmute
  Michele Neylon:is Jim Galvin there?
  Evan Leibovitch:Jim?
  Michele Neylon:he is
  Jim Galvin:I am speaking
  Michele Neylon:grand
  Jim Galvin:Can you hear me?
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:no
  Michele Neylon:yes
  Evan Leibovitch:Yesd
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:yesnow
  Holly Raiche:Yes
  Heidi Ullrich:Yes
  Patrick Vande Walle:yes
  Michele Neylon:I can
  Sergio Salinas Porto:yes jim
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:Yes can hear you
  Lutz Donnerhacke:Yes, we can!
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Yes, can hear you Jim
  Avri Doria:i hear
  Allan Skuce:Yes you are broken up.
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):now i can hear you all again
  Alan Greenberg:@michele, so do I, which is why it took me a bit of time to unmute - mine and adigo's
  Gisella Gruber-White:REMINDER - Please speak at a reasonable pace for the interpreters
  Matt Ashtiani:SSAC054 - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-054-en
  Heidi Ullrich:SSAC 51 -  http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-051-en.pdf
  Matt Ashtiani:SSAC 55 - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-055-en
  Garth Bruen:Back, browser crash
  Michele Neylon:who is next?
  Evan Leibovitch:Carlton?
  Holly Raiche:What about the DNRD model in the agenda?
  Heidi Ullrich:Carlton, we're unmuting you?
  Evan Leibovitch:avri first
  Volker Greimann:no avri
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:heasr you avri
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:yes
  Volker Greimann:cannot hear you at all
  Michele Neylon:we can
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:can hear you
  Volker Greimann:;-)
  Yaovi Atohoun:Please who is speaking? Avri?
  Gisella Gruber-White:Avri Doria speaking
  Yaovi Atohoun:Thanks
  Gisella Gruber-White:Evan Leibovitch is our next speaker
  Michele Neylon:Carlton - so she's been using my time??
  Michele Neylon:*sigh*
  Michele Neylon:/me smacks head off desk
  Avri Doria:sorry i lost track of time
  Avri Doria:and i was speaking slowly, it was onl 5 minutes worth of content
  Michele Neylon:lol
  Michele Neylon:nice come back :)
  Garth Bruen 2:Back, Adobe connection only working on OLD laptop that has had NO updates to Adobe or browser
  Carlos Dionisio Aguirre:mmm
  Garth Bruen 2:Per Avri, not all registrants are created equal. If we are going to apply protections to endangered folks (and I agree we should somehow) we must also acknowledge that commercial entities with industry regulations on disclosure do NOT have a choice masking or lying in WHOIS records.
  Gisella Gruber-White:Michele Neylon is our next speaker
  Avri Doria:.nl has a great model as well.  lots of good models out there.
  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:silence
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Michele, you need to unmute
  Michele Neylon:I am
  Michele Neylon:trying to unmute
  Evan Leibovitch:*7 to unmute
  Patrick Vande Walle:yes
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):in .cat we managed to negotiate a change in contrat to provide privacy in our whois. System similar to .fr but .cat is a gTLD
  Rudi Vansnick:sorry being late, was in another conf call
  Garth Bruen 2:"Accurate-ish"
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):whois data for personal websotes (no bisiness) are public. For private uses or individuals, they may opt-out and hide private data. Law enforcement , registrars, icann, ... have acces to full whois data
  Garth Bruen 2:@Jordi, not true. ICANN for one does not have access to all the WHOIS data
  Gisella Gruber-White:Alan Greenberg is our next speaker
  Garth Bruen 2:Recent breach notices have shown WHOIS data being wholy controlled by a reseller
  Rudi Vansnick:@Jordi : WHOIS data is not public if registration is private !
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Define "private." Is something "private" if it can be reached by law enforcement subpoena?
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):there is a process to ask for full access if youmare really legitimate
  Garth Bruen 2:And Law Enforcement only has access through due process(as expected) it's not automatic
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):if u use port 43 or web, data of who has opt put won't be shown.
  Michele Neylon:Alan - each registry has a contract with ICANN which is different, so they have an "option" - ask the guys in .cat - and they'll tell you how much pain they had
  Rudi Vansnick:for instance in .be : you can define you don't want to make your identity public, of course LEA will always have access
  Michele Neylon:Rudi - same for .eu and other ccTLDs
  Garth Bruen 2:But then who decides who is "legitimate" and can get access
  Luc Seufer:@Rudi local LEA i.e. those having jurisdiction
  Garth Bruen 2:This assumption that law enforcement should have speedy access in ALL cases violates the purposes of hiding registrant identifications in the cases layed out by Avri.
  Gisella Gruber-White:Holly Raiche is our next speaker
  Michele Neylon:Holly sounds a bit muffled
  Garth Bruen 2:You have people who, for good reasons, are hidding from their governments. Openning the records automatically for "Law Enforcement" would include every thuggish "police force"
  Luc Seufer:not all cases, those for which LEA have a court order to gain access to the details
  Michele Neylon:Garth - local LEA only.
  Michele Neylon:Local to the registrar or registry
  Michele Neylon:(depending on who holds the data obviously)
  Rudi Vansnick:@Luc : correct local LEA
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, I;m talking about that too!
  Michele Neylon:I won't act on a notice from a non-Irish LEA
  Rudi Vansnick:one LEA can ask to another to have access
  Alan Greenberg:I think that Holly needs a round of applause when she is finished. It is 3 am in Australia.
  Michele Neylon:Rudi - yes
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Rudi, cross border requests generally involved a lot of red tape.
  Luc Seufer:if  there is a cooperation treaty between the crountries of those 2 LEAs
  Gisella Gruber-White:Our next speaker is Patrick Vande Walle
  Evan Leibovitch:It would surprise me if bad actors were not jurisdiction-shopping for domains, as is already done for incorporation and banking
  Sergio Salinas Porto:hello patrck!!!!
  Avri Doria:I think we do have problems with the Thug countries of  Autocracy 1 and perhaps even Nice Thugs of Autocracy 2.0.  This problem is larger than anything ICANN can deal with.  Adhering to a Rule of Law standard of due process for Reveal works in the non autocratic places.
  Holly Raiche:Thanks Alan - what one does for WHOIS!
  Evan Leibovitch:Of course,  no matter what ICANN does, ccTLDs on their own may choose to enable -- or even encourage -- contact obfuscation in order to increase sales.
  Michele Neylon:Evan - most ccTLDs aren't commericial entities
  Luc Seufer:@Evan what do you mean?
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, some are completely. How do you fell about a ccTLD which has been wholy sold to foreign company?
  Lutz Donnerhacke:Luc: Evan is pointing out, that most ccTLDs are free to choose there own rules.
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Non-public whois in ccTLDs is a long-standing problem for LE. .nu was a porn domain haven when I was working cases.
  Luc Seufer:The .FR Registry did not choose to hide individual details in the whois. It was a binding recommendation from the French DPA. Not a commercial choice from the Registry
  Holly Raiche:@Evan - in Australia, most of the names ARE commerial - using .com.au
  Evan Leibovitch:@Michele ... it doesn't take many. It may take only one, in fact. But we already know of a number of ccTLDs that act as gTLDs even though they hide behind the ccTLD sovereignty rationale
  Garth Bruen 2:@Don, .nu run from Massachuettes in the U.S.! Where's the sovereignty?
  Evan Leibovitch:@Luc. I mean that a ccTLD may choose to ignore reasonable practice imposed (and supposedly enforced) upon gTLDs by ICANN
  Evan Leibovitch:It is good that many follow -- and in some cases exceed -- ICANN standards.
  Gisella Gruber-White:Garth Bruen is our next speaker
  Holly Raiche:@Evan - Oz certainly exceeds what is done in the gTLD space
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Garth, good question on jurisdiction. I raised that at the time but I don't know that anyone has formally made the legal argument that jurisdiction attaches where a registry is administered. I think that .nu was managed by a Seattle company at the ime.
  Evan Leibovitch:From the At-Large PoV, end-users don't have any idea what jurisdictions are in play for most TLDs.
  Volker Greimann:should 99% of registrants suffer the loss of privacy and freedom due to the acts of 1% of miscreants?
  Evan Leibovitch:Look at the sales pages for .co ... look how far you need to go for any reference to Colombia
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:But some have vested interests, good or gad, in knowing.
  Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Good or bad (obviously)
  Evan Leibovitch:@Volker -- you have to demonstrate a loss of freedom. I don't accept it as an article of faith
  Volker Greimann:registrars are victims of bad registrants as well
  Garth Bruen 2:@Volker it is clearly a problem if the "1%'ers" are 90% of a portfolio
  Gisella Gruber-White:@ Yaovi - difficult to hear you
  Heidi Ullrich:Much better, Yaovi.
  Volker Greimann:I can only speak from our perspective and for us it is 1%. Not 90% of any portfolio.
  Volker Greimann:in our customer base at least
  Garth Bruen 2:Ha, I can show you some with 90%, be careful what you wish for
  Gisella Gruber-White:REMINDER - if you are on the ADIGO bridge and the ADOBE CONNECT, please mute your computer speakers to avoid interference
  Gisella Gruber-White:Holly - please speak up
  Jim Galvin:DNRD stands for Domain Name Registration Data
  Jim Galvin:It is from SAC 054
  Volker Greimann:please do. We have no interest in illegal activity under our accreditation.
  Avri Doria:i use the term 'giggle test'  if the claim makes you laugh then maybe it is not legitimate.
  Avri Doria:Does a msipelling make Whois data inaccurate?  How much of a mispelling?
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, specifically in terms of 3.7.8. Where does it say the Registrar must/shall correct inaccuracy?
  Avri Doria:If you can still reach someone through email, but their phone has been detached for non payment, is the data inaccurale.
  Garth Bruen 2:Of course, you take notices from compliance seriously, but those notices are not about 3.7.8
  Luc Seufer:more importantly reachable doesn't meanthe registrant is forced to reply to you ethier via email or to pick up the phone
  Avri Doria:must someone have a phone to register a domain name?  does the absence of a phone make a difference?  How about if I use my skype contact number?
  Yaovi Atohoun:OK. Thanks
  Alan Greenberg:@Michele, issue is not with honorable registrrs, but those who might be less so.
  Michele Neylon:Avri - one of the questions we've been asking ICANN in the RAA negotations I think
  Heidi Ullrich:Fatima is speaking on the ES line
  Heidi Ullrich:and will be interpreted
  Garth Bruen 2:The enforcement is only to your investigation. You are speaking from your responsibility as businessman, I'm talking about the enforceability of the contract in a registrar's failure to correct or delete.
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:where is the interpreter?
  Holly Raiche:@avri - the Final Report did distinguish between totally accurate, accurate where the registrant can be reached and totally inaccurate where the registrant cannot be reached
  Matt Ashtiani:@Fatima - puede usted por favor escriba su pregunta en el chat.
  Avri Doria:Holly, so we only care about totally inaccurate?
  Fatima Cambronero:gracias @Matt
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, the way you have described the situation is excatly as the situation is. The enforcement of WHOIS inaccuracy is at your discretion. While you may do a good job, the fact I'm speaking to is that ICANN has no contractual hold over registrars to correct or delete.
  Michele Neylon:@Fatima algunos de nosotros entienden
  Michele Neylon:Garth - if you worked with registrars you'd get less pushback
  Michele Neylon:arguing with me over a single clause doesn't help your cause
  Luc Seufer:The number of inaccuracy notices we received in the past  from "complainants" who in fact turned out to be prospective buyers of domain names irritated that the registrant did not reply to their buying inquiries.. So it is good to put some common sense when treating those
  Michele Neylon:nor does it make it easy for me to push for certain things in industry
  Michele Neylon:Luc - I hear Google get a LOT of those
  Holly Raiche:The  Issues Report on Whois said that a proxy service was, in fact just acting as an agent.  A privacy service should be accredited as such - which was in the Final Report
  Michele Neylon:or rather their registrar does
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you've told me I'm wrong but not how. Anything else is ad homimem
  Gisella Gruber-White:@ Fatima - we are calling you again
  Yaovi Atohoun:Thank you Alan
  Gisella Gruber-White:Fatima is back
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:aargh - just dropped!!!
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:unbelievable
  Evan Leibovitch:+1 Alan and Holly on proxies
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:sorry
  Michele Neylon:cual es la pregunta?
  Gisella Gruber-White:@ Fatima - please speak
  Michele Neylon:I thought she was speaking via an interpreter
  Heidi Ullrich:She is
  Michele Neylon:she is?
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, simple quesiton: Does ICANN have the contractual authority to breach you for failing to correct an inaccurate WHOIS record or delete a domain with an uncorrected WHOIS?
  Heidi Ullrich:The interpretor is speaking
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I'm back on
  Michele Neylon:Heidi - ah ok
  Heidi Ullrich:Yes, we can hear you, Michele.
  Fatima Cambronero:yes
  Alan Greenberg:+1
  Evan Leibovitch:+1 for the  cage match between Garth and Michele?
  Fatima Cambronero:thanks @Michele
  Evan Leibovitch:It doesn't take a lawyer to determine if something exists in the RAA.
  Evan Leibovitch:especially an authority to act
  Volker Greimann:a lot of these issues will become non-issues under the new RAA anyway
  Avri Doria:Evan, often it does take a lawyer, or even a court, to decide if an obligation exists in a contract.
  Michele Neylon:Volker - yes
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you answered my question. Thank you.
  Matt Ashtiani:At-Large Whois Registrant Identification Study, Draft Report Workspace - https://community.icann.org/x/x4dwAg
  Holly Raiche:The problem is to determine what is practicable and reasonable - and we need to talk with each other to come up with a workable answer
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you're not a lawyer, but I'm sure you would have your lawyer read any breach notice relating to 3.7.8 and he/she would advise you to sue ICANN, and they would be right.
  Avri Doria:I think the directory services work is essential for giving us the ability to develop reaosnable policies.
  Heidi Ullrich:All previous ALAC statements have been posted on the agenda page: https://community.icann.org/x/koZwAg
  Avri Doria:we can talk all we want, but until we have new tools that allows levels of access and reveal, we are just all pounding our heads into the wall.
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, my point was made in your answer. If a registrar had tens of thousands of ignored inaccuracies, they would have to dig up a different reason to breach them.
  Heidi Ullrich:Announcement of Expert WG: http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14feb13-en.htm
  Matt Ashtiani:At-Large Expert gTLD Directory Services Working Group Workspace - https://community.icann.org/x/K4lwAg
  Michele Neylon:FYI - as a member of the EWG - we have our first call tomorrow
  Michele Neylon:and our first meeting next week
  Michele Neylon:can't really say a whole lot until after we've had our first meeting etc
  Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, this is less of an argument between us than you think.
  Heidi Ullrich:There will be an At-Large WHOIS WG Meeting during the ICANN Meeting in Beijing - Wednesday, 10 April - 15:00-16:00.
  Avri Doria:I beleive it is NEVER too late to get involved in a PDPD
  Avri Doria:i mean a PDP
  Avri Doria:until it publishes its FINAL Report, perhaps.
  Alan Greenberg:QUite correct Avri. Even after final report there is always a comment period...
  Sergio Salinas Porto:bye dear collegues! congratulations @carlton for the call!  thanks for the Spanish and french interpretation!
  Avri Doria:Ie. when a PDP is over, then and only then is it too late.  But then there are still comment periods before the Board makes its decsions.
  Heidi Ullrich:Thanks to all the speakers and particpants. Thanks for chairing, Carlton.
  Avri Doria:oops, should have looked to see Alan had already said what I was typing.
  Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Agenda with all past ALAC Statements on WHOIS: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Whois+Briefing+call+20+February+2013
  Matt Ashtiani::)
  Garth Bruen 2:Thank you Calrton and staff
  Heidi Ullrich:Goodbye
  Evan Leibovitch:bye all
  Lutz Donnerhacke:Thank you
  Yaovi Atohoun:Bye
  Michele Neylon:bye
  Gisella Gruber-White:Thank you all!
  Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):bye all
  Nathalie  Peregrine:Goodbye!
  Fatima Cambronero:thanks to all! bye
  Luc Seufer:au revoir
  Matt Ashtiani:thank you everyone!
  Pascal Bekono:Thanks !
  Dick Kalkman (isoc.nl):Thanks all, goodbye.
  Silvia Vivanco:Thank you !
  Dev Anand Teelucksingh:bye all
  Avri Doria:bye y'all
  Gisella Gruber-White:The recrodings and transcripts will be posted on the meeting page: https://community.icann.org/x/koZwAg
  Jim Galvin:Bye everyone!  Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
  Pascal Bekono:merci pour le rappel Gisella
  Pascal Bekono:ciao
  Sivasubramanian M:bye:-)