Ron Sherwood:Good morning all
Holly Raiche:Good morning
Sergio Salinas Porto:good morning all!
Gordon Chillcott:Good Morning, everyone.
Carlton Samuels:Hello everybody
Matt Ashtiani:good morning, everyone!
Holly Raiche:Who is Y
Y:Hello Everyone
Allan Skuce:Good morning.
Y:Willl change it right now. I am Yaovi
Holly Raiche:Thanks
Fatima Cambronero:hello everyone
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Hello everyone
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:Lost your audio GG
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:lost the audio in the AC room
Jordi Iparraguirre:Hi everyone , I was listeing fine but I lost soubnd now.
Dick Kalkman (isoc.nl):Audio is now OK
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:OK now
Natalia Enciso:Hello everyone!
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:hearing you now
Jordi Iparraguirre:audio is ok for me
Avri Doria:ok
Michele Neylon:/me waves
Evan Leibovitch:I'm not using the audio bridge but I can hear fine on the call
Silvia Vivanco:Hello everyone
Sivasubramanian M:hello
Heidi Ullrich:Welcome, everyone!
Michele Neylon:i'm in
Michele Neylon:sorry
Michele Neylon:couldn't see the numbers
Michele Neylon::)
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:thanks for the document!
Heidi Ullrich:All ALAC statements, including on the topic of WHOIS, are available here: http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence
Matt Ashtiani:Affirmation of Commitments - http://www.icann.org/en/about/agreements/aoc
Heidi Ullrich:WHOIS Expert Working Group: http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14feb13-en.htm
Evan Leibovitch:still hearaing ya
Yaovi Atohoun:we can hear you
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Carlton, we are hearing you
Michele Neylon:I can hear him
Gordon Chillcott:I hear you, Carleton.
Sivasubramanian M:we can hear you very clearly
Lutz Donnerhacke:We here you ... Hallo
Allan Skuce:Yes. yuo are heard.
Sergio Salinas Porto:yes ncarlton
Gisella Gruber-White:@ Carlton - we can hear you
Silvia Vivanco:Yes
Volker Greimann:I can hear you
Patrick Vande Walle:I can hear Carlton
Holly Raiche:I can hear you
Evan Leibovitch:So how did Alan escape mute? :-)
Alan Greenberg:Star 7
Michele Neylon:oh funky
Michele Neylon:I just use the mute on my phone
Alan Greenberg:*6 to mute yourself, *7 to unmute
Gisella Gruber-White:*6 to mute and *7 to unmute
Michele Neylon:is Jim Galvin there?
Evan Leibovitch:Jim?
Michele Neylon:he is
Jim Galvin:I am speaking
Michele Neylon:grand
Jim Galvin:Can you hear me?
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:no
Michele Neylon:yes
Evan Leibovitch:Yesd
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:yesnow
Holly Raiche:Yes
Heidi Ullrich:Yes
Patrick Vande Walle:yes
Michele Neylon:I can
Sergio Salinas Porto:yes jim
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:Yes can hear you
Lutz Donnerhacke:Yes, we can!
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:Yes, can hear you Jim
Avri Doria:i hear
Allan Skuce:Yes you are broken up.
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):now i can hear you all again
Alan Greenberg:@michele, so do I, which is why it took me a bit of time to unmute - mine and adigo's
Gisella Gruber-White:REMINDER - Please speak at a reasonable pace for the interpreters
Matt Ashtiani:SSAC054 - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-054-en
Heidi Ullrich:SSAC 51 - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-051-en.pdf
Matt Ashtiani:SSAC 55 - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-055-en
Garth Bruen:Back, browser crash
Michele Neylon:who is next?
Evan Leibovitch:Carlton?
Holly Raiche:What about the DNRD model in the agenda?
Heidi Ullrich:Carlton, we're unmuting you?
Evan Leibovitch:avri first
Volker Greimann:no avri
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:heasr you avri
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:yes
Volker Greimann:cannot hear you at all
Michele Neylon:we can
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:can hear you
Volker Greimann:;-)
Yaovi Atohoun:Please who is speaking? Avri?
Gisella Gruber-White:Avri Doria speaking
Yaovi Atohoun:Thanks
Gisella Gruber-White:Evan Leibovitch is our next speaker
Michele Neylon:Carlton - so she's been using my time??
Michele Neylon:*sigh*
Michele Neylon:/me smacks head off desk
Avri Doria:sorry i lost track of time
Avri Doria:and i was speaking slowly, it was onl 5 minutes worth of content
Michele Neylon:lol
Michele Neylon:nice come back :)
Garth Bruen 2:Back, Adobe connection only working on OLD laptop that has had NO updates to Adobe or browser
Carlos Dionisio Aguirre:mmm
Garth Bruen 2:Per Avri, not all registrants are created equal. If we are going to apply protections to endangered folks (and I agree we should somehow) we must also acknowledge that commercial entities with industry regulations on disclosure do NOT have a choice masking or lying in WHOIS records.
Gisella Gruber-White:Michele Neylon is our next speaker
Avri Doria:.nl has a great model as well. lots of good models out there.
Rinalia Abdul Rahim:silence
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Michele, you need to unmute
Michele Neylon:I am
Michele Neylon:trying to unmute
Evan Leibovitch:*7 to unmute
Patrick Vande Walle:yes
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):in .cat we managed to negotiate a change in contrat to provide privacy in our whois. System similar to .fr but .cat is a gTLD
Rudi Vansnick:sorry being late, was in another conf call
Garth Bruen 2:"Accurate-ish"
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):whois data for personal websotes (no bisiness) are public. For private uses or individuals, they may opt-out and hide private data. Law enforcement , registrars, icann, ... have acces to full whois data
Garth Bruen 2:@Jordi, not true. ICANN for one does not have access to all the WHOIS data
Gisella Gruber-White:Alan Greenberg is our next speaker
Garth Bruen 2:Recent breach notices have shown WHOIS data being wholy controlled by a reseller
Rudi Vansnick:@Jordi : WHOIS data is not public if registration is private !
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Define "private." Is something "private" if it can be reached by law enforcement subpoena?
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):there is a process to ask for full access if youmare really legitimate
Garth Bruen 2:And Law Enforcement only has access through due process(as expected) it's not automatic
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):if u use port 43 or web, data of who has opt put won't be shown.
Michele Neylon:Alan - each registry has a contract with ICANN which is different, so they have an "option" - ask the guys in .cat - and they'll tell you how much pain they had
Rudi Vansnick:for instance in .be : you can define you don't want to make your identity public, of course LEA will always have access
Michele Neylon:Rudi - same for .eu and other ccTLDs
Garth Bruen 2:But then who decides who is "legitimate" and can get access
Luc Seufer:@Rudi local LEA i.e. those having jurisdiction
Garth Bruen 2:This assumption that law enforcement should have speedy access in ALL cases violates the purposes of hiding registrant identifications in the cases layed out by Avri.
Gisella Gruber-White:Holly Raiche is our next speaker
Michele Neylon:Holly sounds a bit muffled
Garth Bruen 2:You have people who, for good reasons, are hidding from their governments. Openning the records automatically for "Law Enforcement" would include every thuggish "police force"
Luc Seufer:not all cases, those for which LEA have a court order to gain access to the details
Michele Neylon:Garth - local LEA only.
Michele Neylon:Local to the registrar or registry
Michele Neylon:(depending on who holds the data obviously)
Rudi Vansnick:@Luc : correct local LEA
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, I;m talking about that too!
Michele Neylon:I won't act on a notice from a non-Irish LEA
Rudi Vansnick:one LEA can ask to another to have access
Alan Greenberg:I think that Holly needs a round of applause when she is finished. It is 3 am in Australia.
Michele Neylon:Rudi - yes
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Rudi, cross border requests generally involved a lot of red tape.
Luc Seufer:if there is a cooperation treaty between the crountries of those 2 LEAs
Gisella Gruber-White:Our next speaker is Patrick Vande Walle
Evan Leibovitch:It would surprise me if bad actors were not jurisdiction-shopping for domains, as is already done for incorporation and banking
Sergio Salinas Porto:hello patrck!!!!
Avri Doria:I think we do have problems with the Thug countries of Autocracy 1 and perhaps even Nice Thugs of Autocracy 2.0. This problem is larger than anything ICANN can deal with. Adhering to a Rule of Law standard of due process for Reveal works in the non autocratic places.
Holly Raiche:Thanks Alan - what one does for WHOIS!
Evan Leibovitch:Of course, no matter what ICANN does, ccTLDs on their own may choose to enable -- or even encourage -- contact obfuscation in order to increase sales.
Michele Neylon:Evan - most ccTLDs aren't commericial entities
Luc Seufer:@Evan what do you mean?
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, some are completely. How do you fell about a ccTLD which has been wholy sold to foreign company?
Lutz Donnerhacke:Luc: Evan is pointing out, that most ccTLDs are free to choose there own rules.
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Non-public whois in ccTLDs is a long-standing problem for LE. .nu was a porn domain haven when I was working cases.
Luc Seufer:The .FR Registry did not choose to hide individual details in the whois. It was a binding recommendation from the French DPA. Not a commercial choice from the Registry
Holly Raiche:@Evan - in Australia, most of the names ARE commerial - using .com.au
Evan Leibovitch:@Michele ... it doesn't take many. It may take only one, in fact. But we already know of a number of ccTLDs that act as gTLDs even though they hide behind the ccTLD sovereignty rationale
Garth Bruen 2:@Don, .nu run from Massachuettes in the U.S.! Where's the sovereignty?
Evan Leibovitch:@Luc. I mean that a ccTLD may choose to ignore reasonable practice imposed (and supposedly enforced) upon gTLDs by ICANN
Evan Leibovitch:It is good that many follow -- and in some cases exceed -- ICANN standards.
Gisella Gruber-White:Garth Bruen is our next speaker
Holly Raiche:@Evan - Oz certainly exceeds what is done in the gTLD space
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Garth, good question on jurisdiction. I raised that at the time but I don't know that anyone has formally made the legal argument that jurisdiction attaches where a registry is administered. I think that .nu was managed by a Seattle company at the ime.
Evan Leibovitch:From the At-Large PoV, end-users don't have any idea what jurisdictions are in play for most TLDs.
Volker Greimann:should 99% of registrants suffer the loss of privacy and freedom due to the acts of 1% of miscreants?
Evan Leibovitch:Look at the sales pages for .co ... look how far you need to go for any reference to Colombia
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:But some have vested interests, good or gad, in knowing.
Don Blumenthal - Public Interest Registry:Good or bad (obviously)
Evan Leibovitch:@Volker -- you have to demonstrate a loss of freedom. I don't accept it as an article of faith
Volker Greimann:registrars are victims of bad registrants as well
Garth Bruen 2:@Volker it is clearly a problem if the "1%'ers" are 90% of a portfolio
Gisella Gruber-White:@ Yaovi - difficult to hear you
Heidi Ullrich:Much better, Yaovi.
Volker Greimann:I can only speak from our perspective and for us it is 1%. Not 90% of any portfolio.
Volker Greimann:in our customer base at least
Garth Bruen 2:Ha, I can show you some with 90%, be careful what you wish for
Gisella Gruber-White:REMINDER - if you are on the ADIGO bridge and the ADOBE CONNECT, please mute your computer speakers to avoid interference
Gisella Gruber-White:Holly - please speak up
Jim Galvin:DNRD stands for Domain Name Registration Data
Jim Galvin:It is from SAC 054
Volker Greimann:please do. We have no interest in illegal activity under our accreditation.
Avri Doria:i use the term 'giggle test' if the claim makes you laugh then maybe it is not legitimate.
Avri Doria:Does a msipelling make Whois data inaccurate? How much of a mispelling?
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, specifically in terms of 3.7.8. Where does it say the Registrar must/shall correct inaccuracy?
Avri Doria:If you can still reach someone through email, but their phone has been detached for non payment, is the data inaccurale.
Garth Bruen 2:Of course, you take notices from compliance seriously, but those notices are not about 3.7.8
Luc Seufer:more importantly reachable doesn't meanthe registrant is forced to reply to you ethier via email or to pick up the phone
Avri Doria:must someone have a phone to register a domain name? does the absence of a phone make a difference? How about if I use my skype contact number?
Yaovi Atohoun:OK. Thanks
Alan Greenberg:@Michele, issue is not with honorable registrrs, but those who might be less so.
Michele Neylon:Avri - one of the questions we've been asking ICANN in the RAA negotations I think
Heidi Ullrich:Fatima is speaking on the ES line
Heidi Ullrich:and will be interpreted
Garth Bruen 2:The enforcement is only to your investigation. You are speaking from your responsibility as businessman, I'm talking about the enforceability of the contract in a registrar's failure to correct or delete.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:where is the interpreter?
Holly Raiche:@avri - the Final Report did distinguish between totally accurate, accurate where the registrant can be reached and totally inaccurate where the registrant cannot be reached
Matt Ashtiani:@Fatima - puede usted por favor escriba su pregunta en el chat.
Avri Doria:Holly, so we only care about totally inaccurate?
Fatima Cambronero:gracias @Matt
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, the way you have described the situation is excatly as the situation is. The enforcement of WHOIS inaccuracy is at your discretion. While you may do a good job, the fact I'm speaking to is that ICANN has no contractual hold over registrars to correct or delete.
Michele Neylon:@Fatima algunos de nosotros entienden
Michele Neylon:Garth - if you worked with registrars you'd get less pushback
Michele Neylon:arguing with me over a single clause doesn't help your cause
Luc Seufer:The number of inaccuracy notices we received in the past from "complainants" who in fact turned out to be prospective buyers of domain names irritated that the registrant did not reply to their buying inquiries.. So it is good to put some common sense when treating those
Michele Neylon:nor does it make it easy for me to push for certain things in industry
Michele Neylon:Luc - I hear Google get a LOT of those
Holly Raiche:The Issues Report on Whois said that a proxy service was, in fact just acting as an agent. A privacy service should be accredited as such - which was in the Final Report
Michele Neylon:or rather their registrar does
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you've told me I'm wrong but not how. Anything else is ad homimem
Gisella Gruber-White:@ Fatima - we are calling you again
Yaovi Atohoun:Thank you Alan
Gisella Gruber-White:Fatima is back
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:aargh - just dropped!!!
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:unbelievable
Evan Leibovitch:+1 Alan and Holly on proxies
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:sorry
Michele Neylon:cual es la pregunta?
Gisella Gruber-White:@ Fatima - please speak
Michele Neylon:I thought she was speaking via an interpreter
Heidi Ullrich:She is
Michele Neylon:she is?
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, simple quesiton: Does ICANN have the contractual authority to breach you for failing to correct an inaccurate WHOIS record or delete a domain with an uncorrected WHOIS?
Heidi Ullrich:The interpretor is speaking
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I'm back on
Michele Neylon:Heidi - ah ok
Heidi Ullrich:Yes, we can hear you, Michele.
Fatima Cambronero:yes
Alan Greenberg:+1
Evan Leibovitch:+1 for the cage match between Garth and Michele?
Fatima Cambronero:thanks @Michele
Evan Leibovitch:It doesn't take a lawyer to determine if something exists in the RAA.
Evan Leibovitch:especially an authority to act
Volker Greimann:a lot of these issues will become non-issues under the new RAA anyway
Avri Doria:Evan, often it does take a lawyer, or even a court, to decide if an obligation exists in a contract.
Michele Neylon:Volker - yes
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you answered my question. Thank you.
Matt Ashtiani:At-Large Whois Registrant Identification Study, Draft Report Workspace - https://community.icann.org/x/x4dwAg
Holly Raiche:The problem is to determine what is practicable and reasonable - and we need to talk with each other to come up with a workable answer
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, you're not a lawyer, but I'm sure you would have your lawyer read any breach notice relating to 3.7.8 and he/she would advise you to sue ICANN, and they would be right.
Avri Doria:I think the directory services work is essential for giving us the ability to develop reaosnable policies.
Heidi Ullrich:All previous ALAC statements have been posted on the agenda page: https://community.icann.org/x/koZwAg
Avri Doria:we can talk all we want, but until we have new tools that allows levels of access and reveal, we are just all pounding our heads into the wall.
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, my point was made in your answer. If a registrar had tens of thousands of ignored inaccuracies, they would have to dig up a different reason to breach them.
Heidi Ullrich:Announcement of Expert WG: http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-14feb13-en.htm
Matt Ashtiani:At-Large Expert gTLD Directory Services Working Group Workspace - https://community.icann.org/x/K4lwAg
Michele Neylon:FYI - as a member of the EWG - we have our first call tomorrow
Michele Neylon:and our first meeting next week
Michele Neylon:can't really say a whole lot until after we've had our first meeting etc
Garth Bruen 2:@Michele, this is less of an argument between us than you think.
Heidi Ullrich:There will be an At-Large WHOIS WG Meeting during the ICANN Meeting in Beijing - Wednesday, 10 April - 15:00-16:00.
Avri Doria:I beleive it is NEVER too late to get involved in a PDPD
Avri Doria:i mean a PDP
Avri Doria:until it publishes its FINAL Report, perhaps.
Alan Greenberg:QUite correct Avri. Even after final report there is always a comment period...
Sergio Salinas Porto:bye dear collegues! congratulations @carlton for the call! thanks for the Spanish and french interpretation!
Avri Doria:Ie. when a PDP is over, then and only then is it too late. But then there are still comment periods before the Board makes its decsions.
Heidi Ullrich:Thanks to all the speakers and particpants. Thanks for chairing, Carlton.
Avri Doria:oops, should have looked to see Alan had already said what I was typing.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Agenda with all past ALAC Statements on WHOIS: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Whois+Briefing+call+20+February+2013
Matt Ashtiani::)
Garth Bruen 2:Thank you Calrton and staff
Heidi Ullrich:Goodbye
Evan Leibovitch:bye all
Lutz Donnerhacke:Thank you
Yaovi Atohoun:Bye
Michele Neylon:bye
Gisella Gruber-White:Thank you all!
Jordi Iparraguirre (isoc.cat):bye all
Nathalie Peregrine:Goodbye!
Fatima Cambronero:thanks to all! bye
Luc Seufer:au revoir
Matt Ashtiani:thank you everyone!
Pascal Bekono:Thanks !
Dick Kalkman (isoc.nl):Thanks all, goodbye.
Silvia Vivanco:Thank you !
Dev Anand Teelucksingh:bye all
Avri Doria:bye y'all
Gisella Gruber-White:The recrodings and transcripts will be posted on the meeting page: https://community.icann.org/x/koZwAg
Jim Galvin:Bye everyone! Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
Pascal Bekono:merci pour le rappel Gisella
Pascal Bekono:ciao
Sivasubramanian M:bye:-)
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