Sub-Group Members:  Adebunmi Adeola Akinbo, Alan Greenberg, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon Orr, David Maher, Finn Petersen, Gigi Johnson, Greg Shatan,Jan Scholte, Jeff Neuman, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Villa, Kavouss Arasteh, Keith Drazek, Leon Sanchez, Phillip Corwin, Par Brumark, Samantha Eisner, Steve DelBianco, Sebastien Bachollet, Seun Ojedeji (20)

Staff:  Alain Durand, Alice Jansen, Brenda Brewer, Kim Carlson, Laena Rahim

Apologies:  Martin Boyle

**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**




Cheryl on AC.

Staff accountability

Several comments were made and incorporated into document.


- Information on existing mechanisms are needed (for instance harassment education) 

- New section was added bottom of page 2. Board of Directors holds ICANN accountable but if Board vets powers in staff then there is no accountability measures unless we create some. It would be opportune to define ICANN's role. 

---> Include definition of role of ICANN staff

- Rights of staff.

- Whistleblowing - ICANN suffers from absence of corporate or social responsibility officer. External audit/review of process needed. 

- What powers are vested in staff? Understanding is needed.

- .Giving focus to staff in contract negotiations may have policy implications. When is the Board required to approve contract provisions? There are no accountability mechanism that speak to that.

- Insert title that states that these are recommendations and not Bylaws

- IRP is only applicable to Board actions and inactions

---> Look into mechanisms applicable to staff

- Ombudsman is established as WS2. We need to make sure WS2 happens. It should be scope to review that ICANN staff does not use Ombudsman for personnel issues

- IRP applicable to staff: would that be delegated to WP1? 

--> WP3 would be delegating suggestions to WP1 

ACTION ITEM: Leon to close staff accountability doc and to send to staff for frozen set

We will discuss in Paris whether recommendations will be incorporated into WS1 document. Most recommendations will be moved to WS2. 

SO/AC Accountability 

ACTION ITEM: Leon to reword suggestions.


- Add "according to the case" as it may not be applicable to GAC. 

- No objections to keeping paragraph 5.

ACTION ITEM: Leon to make necessary adjustments and to circulate as part of frozen set. 


Comments were integrated. 


- Implementation concerns.

- Should be applicable to extent possible.

- How could the fellowship program work better?

- Start with creating a diverse pool.

- This is a non-exhaustive list. Neutrality is most important. Disagree with preferences. Degree of priority needed.

- We need practical criteria.

- We can  conduct a review in WS2 of what has happened in organizations and governments. Intensified outreach needed. 

- Define specifics.

- Danger that we do not fix things but makes metrics look better.

- Document that minority of group disagrees.

- Add that non-exhaustive list.

- Include outreach and engagement.

ACTION ITEM: Sebastien to send diversity paper with note that WP3 could not agree on final version.

Action Items

ACTION ITEM: Leon to close staff accountability doc and to send to staff for frozen set

ACTION ITEM: Leon to reword suggestions

ACTION ITEM: Leon to make necessary adjustments and to circulate as part of frozen set. 

ACTION ITEM: Sebastien to send diversity paper with note that WP3 could not agree on final version.

Chat Transcript

Kimberly Carlson: (7/14/2015 11:19) Welcome to WP3 Meeting #5 on 14 July!  Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: 

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (11:58) Hello!

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (11:59) Hi all!

  Kimberly Carlson: (11:59) Recordings are started

  arasteh: (12:00) HI EVERYBODY

  Alice Jansen: (12:03) It is in the notes pod

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:03) More specifically, when should the remote participants for WP3 sign on to participate in the Paris meetings?  I am not able to make the trip, but would like to follow the relevant discussions when WP3 is discussed.

  Leon Sanchez: (12:04)

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:07) I made some changes to the document last night and I would be happy to walk through   them is anyone wants

  Samantha Eisner: (12:08) To be clear on the point that Sebastien is raising, ICANN follows all appropriate laws, which incorporates trainings on prohibition of harassment, anti-bribery laws, etc.

  Samantha Eisner: (12:09) There should be a clear line between what are HR requirements and what are accountability needs

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (12:11) +1 Sam

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:11) @Samantha ok but some can be usefull for both purposes

  Keith Drazek: (12:11) Agreed Samantha

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:13) Staff diversity is (must be) a requirement for HR

  Samantha Eisner: (12:13) What information would be helpful from a staff standpoint to help build out the lines on that?

  Farzaneh Badii: (12:14) I cannot quite understand why we are talking about HR , I dont see the line that connects accountability to HR. and I agree with Sam.

  Samantha Eisner: (12:15) WE have those rights built into our employment policies (the rights that Kavouss is discussing)

  Farzaneh Badii: (12:15) their rights? I thought we are talking about their accountability

  Samantha Eisner: (12:15) We have prohibitions against harassment, prohibitions against retaliation, etc.

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:16) Also, I want to strongly emphasize that I am NOT talking about HR items in my comment. 

  Samantha Eisner: (12:16) We are in the process, under our operating plan, of engaging an ethics consultant to coordinate a staff code of conduct

  Samantha Eisner: (12:17) and this week are concluding on the engagement of a contractor to review ICANN's anonymous hotline

  Samantha Eisner: (12:17) I'd recommend that this work be focused on the role of staff vis-a-vis the community first

  Farzaneh Badii: (12:17) Thank u Samantha I agree

  Greg Shatan: (12:17) I agree as well.

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:17) @Samantha, that is what my addition refers to

  Farzaneh Badii: (12:18) yes . is it possible to talk about the ombudsman role in this group ?

  Greg Shatan: (12:19) I can wait.

  Samantha Eisner: (12:23) Can we maybe break out some of the particular issues - such as the contract revisions - for which clear processes are required?

  Samantha Eisner: (12:24) Thanks

  Jan Scholte: (12:25) Hi. Sorry to be late. Very dodgy connection in Kiev hotel. No audio. :( Experiencing unequal access to ICANN firsthand!

  Alice Jansen: (12:28) @ Jan let us know if you need a dial-out!

  Jan Scholte: (12:31) Thanks Alice. No phone to hand either! A techie is trying to help but not sure that brains can prevail where the infrastructure is lacking. Tant pis.

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:32) I need a dial out. The network is poor. +2348171111017. Thanks.

  Kimberly Carlson: (12:33) @Akimbo, we'll dial out to you

  Kimberly Carlson: (12:33) Akinbo, sorry

  Philip Corwin: (12:34) Does "actual harm" include alleged violations of the Bylaws?

  Avri Doria: (12:34) so i will fix my typos on the drive version

  Avri Doria: (12:34) will do that now.

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:34) @phil - if you can show some standing and harm

  Kimberly Carlson: (12:34)

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:35) lost voice . . .

  Philip Corwin: (12:36) I would think that a Bylaws violation in and of itself is a harm. But as this work will likely fall into WS2 there is plenty of time to explore that.

  Avri Doria: (12:36) ok, have fixed my typos in the online drive doc.

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:36) On dial-in. Thanks Kimberly.

  Kimberly Carlson: (12:37) You're welcome

  Keith Drazek: (12:38) We have to be very cautious about adding anything to WS1 at this time. There are already voices calling for a reduction of existing WS1 items. Any addition to WS1 needs to be justified and shown to be absolutely necessary for WS1, where WS1 won't enable work in WS2.

  Keith Drazek: (12:39) All of these items are important and most will require time and focus to address adequately. Let's not short-change these issues by attempting to cram them unecessarily into WS1.

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (12:39) THanks.  I will ask Becky about whether IRP could challenge action/decision of Staff -- not just Board

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (12:39) Jef -- you are talking about exisitng bylaws, but we amending bylaws in the area of IRP

  ARASTEH: (12:42) Keith +1

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (12:42) agree Keith and Greg. These are big issues. The only things I can think of for WS1 is expanding current mechanisms to include staff activity

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:42) @Jonathan - I am not sure that the IRP should be extended to staff action or inaction

  Leon Sanchez: (12:42)

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:43) That is a HUGELY expensive process to participate in and is really too complex to apply to non-bylaw types of cases

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:44) Look at the .africa situation.  That cost $600,000 to litigate.....we have to do better than that

  Avri Doria: (12:44) in the current draft on IRP it says: An aggrieved party would trigger the IRP by filing a complaint alleging that a specified action or inaction""

  Keith Drazek: (12:45) @Sebastien: I think its about accountability of the community structures, including those that make up the SOs and ACs. Bottom up!

  Avri Doria: (12:45) it speaks of ICANN action.  does that include Staff?  it doe snot include ACSO actions or inactions.

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:45) We should never rely on the IRP as the key accountability measure.  It is WAY to expensive and complex to use for the ordinary action/inaction

  Avri Doria: (12:46) it is also supposed to become more accessible.

  Jan Scholte 2: (12:46) I've got audio on another computer ... at last!

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:47) Anytime there is an "independent party" inolved that gets compensated for their judicial type determinations, it will never be cheap or efficient

  Avri Doria: (12:47) on costs: a. The CCWG-Accountability recommends that ICANN would bear the administrative the costs of maintaining the system (including Panelist salaries). The Panel may provide for loser pays/fee shifting in the event it identifies a challenge or defense as frivolous or abusive. ICANN should seek to establish access to pro bono representation for community, non-profit complainants.

  Avri Doria: (12:48) i ca't find the changes being made post the last comment period.

  Avri Doria: (12:48) but i am sure i will.

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:48)

  Jan Scholte 2: (12:50) You rejected my suggestions, Sebastien, which is fine, though I don't know why

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:50) Didn't reject

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:50) Add them in other part I think

  Jan Scholte 2: (12:51) Google doc said they were rejected - maybe a software fluke. Thanks

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:52) I was oblige to reject ot have them outside of the document

  Sébastien (ALAC): (12:52) But I add the ideas

  Avri Doria: (12:52) if Seb moved them somewhere else, he might have frejected that edit.  always andy to use the comment slot when rejecting or moving.

  Avri Doria: (12:52) .. always handy ...

  Jan Scholte 2: (12:53) It's fine Sebastien. My misreading of the programme!

  Avri Doria: (12:57) as someone who has been an engineering hiring manager in the past, i can tell you that there is no real way to judge someone's skill until you have seen them work.  you do your best. to the extent possible.  als in terms of region, there may not be reasonable candidate from all regions.  so for all of the diversity factors it is important to take them all into accoun tto the extent reasonably psosible.

  Avri Doria: (13:02) ypu want diversity in courtesy?

  Avri Doria: (13:02) you want diversity in neutrality?

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:02) @Sebastien, could we add a point 6 as a reminder: 'Following clarification of the institutional framework for the new 'community empowerment mechanism' and the IRP, devise a formula to ensure regional diversity in each.

  Avri Doria: (13:05) exerpeince if often related to diversity and langauge.  different cultures different expereince.

  Avri Doria: (13:06) they are not divisible.

  CLO: (13:06) exactly Alan well said

  Avri Doria: (13:07) that is why the set needs to be indivisable and seen as a serious consideration not a quota.

  CLO: (13:08) yup

  Avri Doria: (13:08) And yes, Kavouss is right, he and i have argued about the inclusion of gender diversity in previous venues.

  Greg Shatan: (13:09) We are dealing with a pool of volunteers.  Competent people need to be cultivated.  They are not just "there."

  Avri Doria: (13:09) i mean discussed strenously

  Gigi Johnson: (13:09) Agree +1

  Gigi Johnson: (13:09) To the comment just madw

  CLO: (13:09) exactly Greg

  Avri Doria: (13:10) i agree, the diversity requirements goes deeper that picking leaders and should be a motivator for the outrach effoerts.  it is worth saying that.

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:11) totally agree Alan.

  Keith Drazek: (13:11) Agree Alan

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (13:11) +1 Alan

  Gigi Johnson: (13:11) Diversity as a verb and long-term education process, not just a noun or outcome.  Agree

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (13:11) +1 Alan

  CLO: (13:12) yes indeed Alan

  Leon Sanchez: (13:12)

  arasteh: (13:13) Iam sorry

  Keith Drazek: (13:15) We're getting a lot of background noise.

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:16) pass

  Alice Jansen: (13:17) please mute your lines if not speaking

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:17) @Sebastien, just to check on your view about my earlier typed suggestion, which may have been overlooked in the intense discussion

  arasteh: (13:18) This is a non exhaustic  list

  arasteh: (13:19) this is inbalance liust to categorize all tgese on the same level

  arasteh: (13:20) there are other items to be added .

  CLO: (13:20) I have another call shortly so will need to leave the phone connection before the end of the call will leave ACopen though

  arasteh: (13:20) However, one can nit put experience at the same level as the culuture

  arasteh: (13:21) There is no criteria to measure or compare culture with language

  Samantha Eisner: (13:21) With apologies, I have to leave early.  See you all in Paris

  arasteh: (13:21) This group does not take into account all views

  arasteh: (13:22) That does notr work

  CLO: (13:22) bye Sam safe travels

  arasteh: (13:22) I mentioned all thgese at the last meeting but they were ignored

  arasteh: (13:22) WE NEED TO RESPECT ALL VIEWS

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:23) Is the Paris agenda up?  When will these materials be discussed?

  arasteh: (13:23) I am waisting my precious time

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:23) @Aasteh: what are this views?

  arasteh: (13:24) I will raise the issue at Paris meeting

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:24) Suggest your list and cross check if it would not be muddled up.

  Avri Doria: (13:24) if we want to be expansive about the list of diversity criteria I may find myslef need to request the inclusion of LGBTQI

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:24) and religion

  arasteh: (13:25) Pls read my comments

  Greg Shatan: (13:25) Will IRPs apply to Working Groups?  IF they apply to SO/ACs, that would seem to be a logical next step.

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (13:25) Note regarding the ability to challenge staff action:  Becky Burr tells me that enhanced IRP should address action/inaction of board and/or Staff

  arasteh: (13:25) I repeat

  arasteh: (13:25) This is a non exhaustic list

  arasteh: (13:25) there are other elements to be added

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:25) Thanks Steve...the IRP may address it, but whether the IRP will be easily accesible and able to have meaningful redress is a whole other subject


  Jan Scholte 2: (13:25) perfect. thank you Sebastien

  Leon Sanchez: (13:25) @Kavouss, I believe that no one is treating this a an exhaustive list. It is clearly a non exhaustive list

  arasteh: (13:25) SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY

  Avri Doria: (13:26) we do not need diversity in devotion and sens of repsonsiblity. 

  arasteh: (13:26) ETHICAL CLUTURE


  CLO: (13:26) of course it is *not* an exhaustive list

  Greg Shatan: (13:26) Strengthen commitments to outreach and engagement in order to create a more diverse pool of ICANN participants, so that diversity is better reflected in the overall community and thus more naturally reflected at ICANN

  Greg Shatan: (13:26) My suggestion above.

  arasteh: (13:26) Mutual and civic behavious

  arasteh: (13:26) And others

  Gigi Johnson: (13:26) +1 Greg plus ongoing education and expansion

  Sébastien (ALAC): (13:26)

  CLO: (13:27) happy with that G

  arasteh: (13:27) One can not treat all these equaly

  CLO: (13:27) Greg

  arasteh: (13:27) There is a degree of importance and priority to be respected

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:27) If we absorb all this diversity, what is the end point?

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:27) last phrase 'and thus more naturally reflected at ICANN' could be omitted?

  Avri Doria: (13:27) i think  Gregs text should added to the text.. and agree it is not exhasitive, perhap sinclude include but is not repstricted to.

  Leon Sanchez: (13:27) @Kavouss no one is suggesting the criteria are weighed equally

  arasteh: (13:27) All thgese must be reflected in the document

  Keith Drazek: (13:28) I have my own diversity of devotion on a daily basis.

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:28) What is the purpose of such a list if not properly classified?

  Avri Doria: (13:28) Keith ( :

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:28) @Greg my comment above

  arasteh: (13:28) then add nothing for fun

  Keith Drazek: (13:29) :-)

  Alan Greenberg: (13:29) Should we perhaps talk about diversity of intelligence?

  CLO: (13:29) :-)

  Greg Shatan: (13:29) Jan, I think that is the ultimate goal.  Why eliminate it?

  arasteh: (13:29) these elements were added in all other organization without being able to treat them

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:29) Dont worry Alan, my intelligence is so low compared to you all that we can certainly claim to be a diverse group :)

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:29) ...i agree that we state its non-exhustive as suggested by  others with respect to your fears, @Arasteh

  arasteh: (13:29) There is no criteria to implement them

  Avri Doria: (13:30) taking the diversity issues into consideration is an implementation modality

  Sébastien (ALAC): (13:30) Will do

  Greg Shatan: (13:30) Revised: Strengthen commitments to outreach and engagement in order to create a more diverse pool of ICANN participants, so that diversity is better reflected in the overall community and thus more naturally reflected in ICANN structures and leadership positions.

  arasteh: (13:30) CCWG becomes a talk show

  Avri Doria: (13:30) and something for ATRT to review as necessary

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:30) not sure that it adds anything that not implied in what came before? Also 'naturally' reads a bit curiously to me, but maybe it's me!

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:30) If you can just send out the times that WP3 will be discussed, I will GREATLY appreciate

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:30) it

  Greg Shatan: (13:30) Jan, just changed it to be more clear about what I was trying to say.  First drafts are inherently first drafts.

  Jan Scholte 2: (13:31) indeed - you should see mine!

  arasteh: (13:31) All thgese are correct but difficult to be implemented

  Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (13:31) Thank you! See you in a couple days

  Kimberly Carlson: (13:31) Thank you everyone, safe travels

  CLO: (13:32) bye thanks safe travels

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:32) Thanks

  Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:32) OK, will ask again, when will this be discussed in Paris....I cant be ther

  Greg Shatan: (13:32) Bye all.  Have fun in Paris.  I'll have fun trying tow wake up before I go to sleep, so I can participate.

  Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:32) Bye....

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (13:33) Buy

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