Sub-Group Members: Adebunmi Adeola Akinbo, Alan Greenberg, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon Orr, David Maher, Finn Petersen, Gigi Johnson, Greg Shatan,Jan Scholte, Jeff Neuman, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Villa, Kavouss Arasteh, Keith Drazek, Leon Sanchez, Phillip Corwin, Par Brumark, Samantha Eisner, Steve DelBianco, Sebastien Bachollet, Seun Ojedeji (20)
Staff: Alain Durand, Alice Jansen, Brenda Brewer, Kim Carlson, Laena Rahim
Apologies: Martin Boyle
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Cheryl on AC.
Staff accountability
Several comments were made and incorporated into document.
Feedback:
- Information on existing mechanisms are needed (for instance harassment education)
- New section was added bottom of page 2. Board of Directors holds ICANN accountable but if Board vets powers in staff then there is no accountability measures unless we create some. It would be opportune to define ICANN's role.
---> Include definition of role of ICANN staff
- Rights of staff.
- Whistleblowing - ICANN suffers from absence of corporate or social responsibility officer. External audit/review of process needed.
- What powers are vested in staff? Understanding is needed.
- .Giving focus to staff in contract negotiations may have policy implications. When is the Board required to approve contract provisions? There are no accountability mechanism that speak to that.
- Insert title that states that these are recommendations and not Bylaws
- IRP is only applicable to Board actions and inactions
---> Look into mechanisms applicable to staff
- Ombudsman is established as WS2. We need to make sure WS2 happens. It should be scope to review that ICANN staff does not use Ombudsman for personnel issues
- IRP applicable to staff: would that be delegated to WP1?
--> WP3 would be delegating suggestions to WP1
ACTION ITEM: Leon to close staff accountability doc and to send to staff for frozen set
We will discuss in Paris whether recommendations will be incorporated into WS1 document. Most recommendations will be moved to WS2.
SO/AC Accountability
ACTION ITEM: Leon to reword suggestions.
Feedback:
- Add "according to the case" as it may not be applicable to GAC.
- No objections to keeping paragraph 5.
ACTION ITEM: Leon to make necessary adjustments and to circulate as part of frozen set.
Diversity
Comments were integrated.
Feedback:
- Implementation concerns.
- Should be applicable to extent possible.
- How could the fellowship program work better?
- Start with creating a diverse pool.
- This is a non-exhaustive list. Neutrality is most important. Disagree with preferences. Degree of priority needed.
- We need practical criteria.
- We can conduct a review in WS2 of what has happened in organizations and governments. Intensified outreach needed.
- Define specifics.
- Danger that we do not fix things but makes metrics look better.
- Document that minority of group disagrees.
- Add that non-exhaustive list.
- Include outreach and engagement.
ACTION ITEM: Sebastien to send diversity paper with note that WP3 could not agree on final version.
ACTION ITEM: Leon to close staff accountability doc and to send to staff for frozen set
ACTION ITEM: Leon to reword suggestions
ACTION ITEM: Leon to make necessary adjustments and to circulate as part of frozen set.
ACTION ITEM: Sebastien to send diversity paper with note that WP3 could not agree on final version.
Kimberly Carlson: (7/14/2015 11:19) Welcome to WP3 Meeting #5 on 14 July! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (11:58) Hello!
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (11:59) Hi all!
Kimberly Carlson: (11:59) Recordings are started
arasteh: (12:00) HI EVERYBODY
Alice Jansen: (12:03) It is in the notes pod
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:03) More specifically, when should the remote participants for WP3 sign on to participate in the Paris meetings? I am not able to make the trip, but would like to follow the relevant discussions when WP3 is discussed.
Leon Sanchez: (12:04) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UZG8Dye8W2trulcK_54XshBFT2fDK7-eyKlmi1gYnLM/edit
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:07) I made some changes to the document last night and I would be happy to walk through them is anyone wants
Samantha Eisner: (12:08) To be clear on the point that Sebastien is raising, ICANN follows all appropriate laws, which incorporates trainings on prohibition of harassment, anti-bribery laws, etc.
Samantha Eisner: (12:09) There should be a clear line between what are HR requirements and what are accountability needs
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (12:11) +1 Sam
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:11) @Samantha ok but some can be usefull for both purposes
Keith Drazek: (12:11) Agreed Samantha
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:13) Staff diversity is (must be) a requirement for HR
Samantha Eisner: (12:13) What information would be helpful from a staff standpoint to help build out the lines on that?
Farzaneh Badii: (12:14) I cannot quite understand why we are talking about HR , I dont see the line that connects accountability to HR. and I agree with Sam.
Samantha Eisner: (12:15) WE have those rights built into our employment policies (the rights that Kavouss is discussing)
Farzaneh Badii: (12:15) their rights? I thought we are talking about their accountability
Samantha Eisner: (12:15) We have prohibitions against harassment, prohibitions against retaliation, etc.
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:16) Also, I want to strongly emphasize that I am NOT talking about HR items in my comment.
Samantha Eisner: (12:16) We are in the process, under our operating plan, of engaging an ethics consultant to coordinate a staff code of conduct
Samantha Eisner: (12:17) and this week are concluding on the engagement of a contractor to review ICANN's anonymous hotline
Samantha Eisner: (12:17) I'd recommend that this work be focused on the role of staff vis-a-vis the community first
Farzaneh Badii: (12:17) Thank u Samantha I agree
Greg Shatan: (12:17) I agree as well.
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:17) @Samantha, that is what my addition refers to
Farzaneh Badii: (12:18) yes . is it possible to talk about the ombudsman role in this group ?
Greg Shatan: (12:19) I can wait.
Samantha Eisner: (12:23) Can we maybe break out some of the particular issues - such as the contract revisions - for which clear processes are required?
Samantha Eisner: (12:24) Thanks
Jan Scholte: (12:25) Hi. Sorry to be late. Very dodgy connection in Kiev hotel. No audio. :( Experiencing unequal access to ICANN firsthand!
Alice Jansen: (12:28) @ Jan let us know if you need a dial-out!
Jan Scholte: (12:31) Thanks Alice. No phone to hand either! A techie is trying to help but not sure that brains can prevail where the infrastructure is lacking. Tant pis.
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:32) I need a dial out. The network is poor. +2348171111017. Thanks.
Kimberly Carlson: (12:33) @Akimbo, we'll dial out to you
Kimberly Carlson: (12:33) Akinbo, sorry
Philip Corwin: (12:34) Does "actual harm" include alleged violations of the Bylaws?
Avri Doria: (12:34) so i will fix my typos on the drive version
Avri Doria: (12:34) will do that now.
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:34) @phil - if you can show some standing and harm
Kimberly Carlson: (12:34) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GG4wblrb30VLbQmgrxmECg0q6jdRozIOpym9ZQsT5V0/edit?usp=sharing
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:35) lost voice . . .
Philip Corwin: (12:36) I would think that a Bylaws violation in and of itself is a harm. But as this work will likely fall into WS2 there is plenty of time to explore that.
Avri Doria: (12:36) ok, have fixed my typos in the online drive doc.
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (12:36) On dial-in. Thanks Kimberly.
Kimberly Carlson: (12:37) You're welcome
Keith Drazek: (12:38) We have to be very cautious about adding anything to WS1 at this time. There are already voices calling for a reduction of existing WS1 items. Any addition to WS1 needs to be justified and shown to be absolutely necessary for WS1, where WS1 won't enable work in WS2.
Keith Drazek: (12:39) All of these items are important and most will require time and focus to address adequately. Let's not short-change these issues by attempting to cram them unecessarily into WS1.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (12:39) THanks. I will ask Becky about whether IRP could challenge action/decision of Staff -- not just Board
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (12:39) Jef -- you are talking about exisitng bylaws, but we amending bylaws in the area of IRP
ARASTEH: (12:42) Keith +1
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (12:42) agree Keith and Greg. These are big issues. The only things I can think of for WS1 is expanding current mechanisms to include staff activity
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:42) @Jonathan - I am not sure that the IRP should be extended to staff action or inaction
Leon Sanchez: (12:42) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GG4wblrb30VLbQmgrxmECg0q6jdRozIOpym9ZQsT5V0/edit
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:43) That is a HUGELY expensive process to participate in and is really too complex to apply to non-bylaw types of cases
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:44) Look at the .africa situation. That cost $600,000 to litigate.....we have to do better than that
Avri Doria: (12:44) in the current draft on IRP it says: An aggrieved party would trigger the IRP by filing a complaint alleging that a specified action or inaction""
Keith Drazek: (12:45) @Sebastien: I think its about accountability of the community structures, including those that make up the SOs and ACs. Bottom up!
Avri Doria: (12:45) it speaks of ICANN action. does that include Staff? it doe snot include ACSO actions or inactions.
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:45) We should never rely on the IRP as the key accountability measure. It is WAY to expensive and complex to use for the ordinary action/inaction
Avri Doria: (12:46) it is also supposed to become more accessible.
Jan Scholte 2: (12:46) I've got audio on another computer ... at last!
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (12:47) Anytime there is an "independent party" inolved that gets compensated for their judicial type determinations, it will never be cheap or efficient
Avri Doria: (12:47) on costs: a. The CCWG-Accountability recommends that ICANN would bear the administrative the costs of maintaining the system (including Panelist salaries). The Panel may provide for loser pays/fee shifting in the event it identifies a challenge or defense as frivolous or abusive. ICANN should seek to establish access to pro bono representation for community, non-profit complainants.
Avri Doria: (12:48) i ca't find the changes being made post the last comment period.
Avri Doria: (12:48) but i am sure i will.
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:48) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PN0uI8JWpfVwabxoiwF7QqtLP4aiPSK_2zaoQlJm72I/edit#
Jan Scholte 2: (12:50) You rejected my suggestions, Sebastien, which is fine, though I don't know why
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:50) Didn't reject
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:50) Add them in other part I think
Jan Scholte 2: (12:51) Google doc said they were rejected - maybe a software fluke. Thanks
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:52) I was oblige to reject ot have them outside of the document
Sébastien (ALAC): (12:52) But I add the ideas
Avri Doria: (12:52) if Seb moved them somewhere else, he might have frejected that edit. always andy to use the comment slot when rejecting or moving.
Avri Doria: (12:52) .. always handy ...
Jan Scholte 2: (12:53) It's fine Sebastien. My misreading of the programme!
Avri Doria: (12:57) as someone who has been an engineering hiring manager in the past, i can tell you that there is no real way to judge someone's skill until you have seen them work. you do your best. to the extent possible. als in terms of region, there may not be reasonable candidate from all regions. so for all of the diversity factors it is important to take them all into accoun tto the extent reasonably psosible.
Avri Doria: (13:02) ypu want diversity in courtesy?
Avri Doria: (13:02) you want diversity in neutrality?
Jan Scholte 2: (13:02) @Sebastien, could we add a point 6 as a reminder: 'Following clarification of the institutional framework for the new 'community empowerment mechanism' and the IRP, devise a formula to ensure regional diversity in each.
Avri Doria: (13:05) exerpeince if often related to diversity and langauge. different cultures different expereince.
Avri Doria: (13:06) they are not divisible.
CLO: (13:06) exactly Alan well said
Avri Doria: (13:07) that is why the set needs to be indivisable and seen as a serious consideration not a quota.
CLO: (13:08) yup
Avri Doria: (13:08) And yes, Kavouss is right, he and i have argued about the inclusion of gender diversity in previous venues.
Greg Shatan: (13:09) We are dealing with a pool of volunteers. Competent people need to be cultivated. They are not just "there."
Avri Doria: (13:09) i mean discussed strenously
Gigi Johnson: (13:09) Agree +1
Gigi Johnson: (13:09) To the comment just madw
CLO: (13:09) exactly Greg
Avri Doria: (13:10) i agree, the diversity requirements goes deeper that picking leaders and should be a motivator for the outrach effoerts. it is worth saying that.
Jan Scholte 2: (13:11) totally agree Alan.
Keith Drazek: (13:11) Agree Alan
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (13:11) +1 Alan
Gigi Johnson: (13:11) Diversity as a verb and long-term education process, not just a noun or outcome. Agree
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (13:11) +1 Alan
CLO: (13:12) yes indeed Alan
Leon Sanchez: (13:12) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GG4wblrb30VLbQmgrxmECg0q6jdRozIOpym9ZQsT5V0/edit
arasteh: (13:13) Iam sorry
Keith Drazek: (13:15) We're getting a lot of background noise.
Jan Scholte 2: (13:16) pass
Alice Jansen: (13:17) please mute your lines if not speaking
Jan Scholte 2: (13:17) @Sebastien, just to check on your view about my earlier typed suggestion, which may have been overlooked in the intense discussion
arasteh: (13:18) This is a non exhaustic list
arasteh: (13:19) this is inbalance liust to categorize all tgese on the same level
arasteh: (13:20) there are other items to be added .
CLO: (13:20) I have another call shortly so will need to leave the phone connection before the end of the call will leave ACopen though
arasteh: (13:20) However, one can nit put experience at the same level as the culuture
arasteh: (13:21) There is no criteria to measure or compare culture with language
Samantha Eisner: (13:21) With apologies, I have to leave early. See you all in Paris
arasteh: (13:21) This group does not take into account all views
arasteh: (13:22) That does notr work
CLO: (13:22) bye Sam safe travels
arasteh: (13:22) I mentioned all thgese at the last meeting but they were ignored
arasteh: (13:22) WE NEED TO RESPECT ALL VIEWS
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:23) Is the Paris agenda up? When will these materials be discussed?
arasteh: (13:23) I am waisting my precious time
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:23) @Aasteh: what are this views?
arasteh: (13:24) I will raise the issue at Paris meeting
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:24) Suggest your list and cross check if it would not be muddled up.
Avri Doria: (13:24) if we want to be expansive about the list of diversity criteria I may find myslef need to request the inclusion of LGBTQI
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:24) and religion
arasteh: (13:25) Pls read my comments
Greg Shatan: (13:25) Will IRPs apply to Working Groups? IF they apply to SO/ACs, that would seem to be a logical next step.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (13:25) Note regarding the ability to challenge staff action: Becky Burr tells me that enhanced IRP should address action/inaction of board and/or Staff
arasteh: (13:25) I repeat
arasteh: (13:25) This is a non exhaustic list
arasteh: (13:25) there are other elements to be added
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:25) Thanks Steve...the IRP may address it, but whether the IRP will be easily accesible and able to have meaningful redress is a whole other subject
arasteh: (13:25) DEVOTION, NEUTRALITY, IMPARTIALITY
Jan Scholte 2: (13:25) perfect. thank you Sebastien
Leon Sanchez: (13:25) @Kavouss, I believe that no one is treating this a an exhaustive list. It is clearly a non exhaustive list
arasteh: (13:25) SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY
Avri Doria: (13:26) we do not need diversity in devotion and sens of repsonsiblity.
arasteh: (13:26) ETHICAL CLUTURE
arasteh: (13:26) nON DISCRIMINATORY ATTITUDE AND ACTION
CLO: (13:26) of course it is *not* an exhaustive list
Greg Shatan: (13:26) Strengthen commitments to outreach and engagement in order to create a more diverse pool of ICANN participants, so that diversity is better reflected in the overall community and thus more naturally reflected at ICANN
Greg Shatan: (13:26) My suggestion above.
arasteh: (13:26) Mutual and civic behavious
arasteh: (13:26) And others
Gigi Johnson: (13:26) +1 Greg plus ongoing education and expansion
Sébastien (ALAC): (13:26) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PN0uI8JWpfVwabxoiwF7QqtLP4aiPSK_2zaoQlJm72I/edit#
CLO: (13:27) happy with that G
arasteh: (13:27) One can not treat all these equaly
CLO: (13:27) Greg
arasteh: (13:27) There is a degree of importance and priority to be respected
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:27) If we absorb all this diversity, what is the end point?
Jan Scholte 2: (13:27) last phrase 'and thus more naturally reflected at ICANN' could be omitted?
Avri Doria: (13:27) i think Gregs text should added to the text.. and agree it is not exhasitive, perhap sinclude include but is not repstricted to.
Leon Sanchez: (13:27) @Kavouss no one is suggesting the criteria are weighed equally
arasteh: (13:27) All thgese must be reflected in the document
Keith Drazek: (13:28) I have my own diversity of devotion on a daily basis.
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:28) What is the purpose of such a list if not properly classified?
Avri Doria: (13:28) Keith ( :
Jan Scholte 2: (13:28) @Greg my comment above
arasteh: (13:28) then add nothing for fun
Keith Drazek: (13:29) :-)
Alan Greenberg: (13:29) Should we perhaps talk about diversity of intelligence?
CLO: (13:29) :-)
Greg Shatan: (13:29) Jan, I think that is the ultimate goal. Why eliminate it?
arasteh: (13:29) these elements were added in all other organization without being able to treat them
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:29) Dont worry Alan, my intelligence is so low compared to you all that we can certainly claim to be a diverse group :)
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:29) ...i agree that we state its non-exhustive as suggested by others with respect to your fears, @Arasteh
arasteh: (13:29) There is no criteria to implement them
Avri Doria: (13:30) taking the diversity issues into consideration is an implementation modality
Sébastien (ALAC): (13:30) Will do
Greg Shatan: (13:30) Revised: Strengthen commitments to outreach and engagement in order to create a more diverse pool of ICANN participants, so that diversity is better reflected in the overall community and thus more naturally reflected in ICANN structures and leadership positions.
arasteh: (13:30) CCWG becomes a talk show
Avri Doria: (13:30) and something for ATRT to review as necessary
Jan Scholte 2: (13:30) not sure that it adds anything that not implied in what came before? Also 'naturally' reads a bit curiously to me, but maybe it's me!
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:30) If you can just send out the times that WP3 will be discussed, I will GREATLY appreciate
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:30) it
Greg Shatan: (13:30) Jan, just changed it to be more clear about what I was trying to say. First drafts are inherently first drafts.
Jan Scholte 2: (13:31) indeed - you should see mine!
arasteh: (13:31) All thgese are correct but difficult to be implemented
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (13:31) Thank you! See you in a couple days
Kimberly Carlson: (13:31) Thank you everyone, safe travels
CLO: (13:32) bye thanks safe travels
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:32) Thanks
Jeff Neuman (Valideus): (13:32) OK, will ask again, when will this be discussed in Paris....I cant be ther
Greg Shatan: (13:32) Bye all. Have fun in Paris. I'll have fun trying tow wake up before I go to sleep, so I can participate.
Akinbo A. A. Cornerstone .ng ccTLD: (13:32) Bye....
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (13:33) Buy