Page History

00:32:28 Silvia Vivanco: Welcome all
00:33:00 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Welcome Nigel
00:33:09 Gopal Tadepalli: Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
00:33:47 Nigel Hickson: Good evening; Chris Lewis Evans is also joining from GAC / PSWG
00:33:59 Roberto Gaetano: Hi all - sorry for being late
00:34:05 Eduardo Diaz: For those with low bandwidth you can watch live in the NARALO facebook group page: facebook.com/groups/naralo and NARALO youtube channel: https://youtu.be/gbhJCkJwKm4. Subscribe to our social media channels while you are there.
00:38:05 Shi Young Chang: Dear Nigel and Chris, thank you for attending from GAC.
00:38:52 Frank Anati: Hi everyone Frank Anati from Ghana https://www.linkedin.com/in/frank-anati/
00:39:03 Frank Anati: Nice to meet you all
00:40:08 Jonathan Zuck: Proszę
00:44:12 Jonathan Zuck: https://circleid.com/posts/20210820-dns-abuse-definition-attributes-of-mitigation
00:44:12 Sivasubramanian M: <question> Why is the DNS Abuse Institute defining DNS Abuse based on the perception of what can and can not be tackled?
00:45:07 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Reminder - if you wish to hear French or Spanish interpretation, please contact staff[at]atlarge.icann.org or private message us
00:46:12 Sivasubramanian M: <supplementary to the question> Shouldn't the definition be unconstrained with a view to find ways of tackling even the types of abuse that are perceived to be difficult to mitigate?
00:50:33 Jonathan Zuck: .EU uses preventive
00:50:34 Bill Jouris: <QUESTION (for Graeme)>Has the Institute looked at the potential impact of Internationalization of Domain Names Project's very narrow definition of what constitutes a variants?</QUESTION>
00:52:11 Sivasubramanian M: For the collective action problem the solution is collective solution, whereby the monitoring and mitigation efforts are collective, i.e at a central space, with even costs deflected away from the Registry / Registrar... The response to abuse, or mitigation also could be from the collective abuse mitigation platform, almost as if the Registar / Registry has 'outsourced' DNS abuse functions to the central collective, free of cost.
00:54:35 Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow: <QUESTION> @ Grame , you said 100 or 200 thousand bad domain identified as bad domain which are suppose to involve in abuse, is there any list of those domain ? if have where can find this list and what does policy for those domain not to involve in future abusing?
00:55:05 Graeme Bunton: EuroDNS
00:56:01 Olévié Kouami: Greetings from Senegal
00:56:19 Michael Graham: Question for Graeme later: Will the DNS Abuse Institute also maintain and make public a list of domain names, registrants, registrars, and registries dealt with through its program and take any steps more broadly based on the information it obtains.
00:56:55 Graeme Bunton: I’ll try and answer those questions when we get to the Q&A!
00:57:07 Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow: Thank you!
00:58:07 Joanna Kulesza: Indeed, Greame, all Qs are being noted, Jonathan will refer to these as we progress with the agenda.
01:00:05 Sivasubramanian M: <Question @Brian> not a legal question, but does PIR as a Registry takes ownership of abuse incidents origining from .org, .ngo and .ong registrars and resellers?
01:00:57 Brian King: As Brian C notes, registries have been constructive and collaborative with IPC on a joint paper on IDN homoglyph attacks (to be published soon), which is much appreciated. Thanks to Verisign and Donuts specifically.
01:03:10 Graeme Bunton: 4% is a huge increase.
01:04:08 Hadia Elminiawi: yes
01:04:35 Daniel Nanghaka: That is right
01:05:42 Brian King: PIR's QPI program is really smart approach. ICANN should extrapolate that incentivization across all gTLDs.
01:06:14 Hadia Elminiawi: +1 James collaboration is important
01:06:16 Brian Cimbolic: Thanks Sivasubramanian. Not sure I follow the question, but we certainly strive to recognize and mitigate DNS Abuse as soon as we can in all of our TLDs
01:08:36 Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org: A friendly reminder when speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for our interpreters - thank you!
01:08:51 Holly Raiche: @ Graeme - the link to your CircleID article please
01:09:15 Brian King: https://circleid.com/posts/20210820-dns-abuse-definition-attributes-of-mitigation
01:09:44 Holly Raiche: Thanks Brian
01:10:19 Brian Cimbolic: The RYSG and RRSG publication pages contain several of the documents I mentioned: https://rrsg.org/statements/ and https://www.rysg.info/resources/dnsabuseresources/
01:12:07 Holly Raiche: Thanks Brian
01:16:32 Christopher Wilkinson: @GoDaddy: which w Ould you prefer: a rigorous ICANN policy on DNS Abuse for all Regisries and Registrars OR discrete national and EU regulation? That is what is on the table today.- CW
01:17:19 Brian Cimbolic: As @Lori mentioned, here is some great work from the Internet & Jurisdiction Policy Network on these questions: https://www.internetjurisdiction.net/domains/toolkit
01:19:20 Hadia Elminiawi: Thanks Brian
01:19:42 Nigel Hickson UK GAC: +1 Lori
01:21:11 Hadia Elminiawi: Through ICANN self regulation is possible
01:22:47 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: +++ Lori!
01:23:36 Joanna Kulesza: Please note this might be attended to by the CoE Budapest Convention Additional Protocol II out for signature.
01:23:59 Holly Raiche: @ Joanna - a link please
01:24:12 Graeme Bunton: Pragmatically, I’ve not encountered a lot of scenarios where Registrant information was particularly useful for mitigating DNS in a case by case basis.
01:24:35 Holly Raiche: Thanks Graeme - further discussion?
01:25:33 Holly Raiche: @ Graeme - is your point covered in the CircleID article/
01:25:41 LORI SCHULMAN: https://www.inta.org/wp-content/uploads/public-files/advocacy/committee-reports/WHOIS-Challenges-A-Toolkit-for-Intellectual-Property-Professionals-3.20.20.pdf
01:25:49 Jonathan Zuck: Different point, Holly
01:26:14 LORI SCHULMAN: https://www.ipconstituency.org/position-papers
01:26:36 Holly Raiche: @ JZ - just asking Graeme for elaboration
01:26:42 Gopal Tadepalli: Any insights on the use of emojis in the domain name ? - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:26:58 Jonathan Zuck: Yes, just answering your question about the circled post
01:27:00 Graeme Bunton: @holly, I’m happy to talk to that point.
01:27:21 Hadia Elminiawi: Maybe we need a webinar dedicated only to actual scenarios
01:27:22 Holly Raiche: Thanks Graeme - please do
01:27:42 Olévié Kouami: Wrlcome on board Seyram from Togo
01:27:47 Olévié Kouami: Welcome
01:27:48 Bill Jouris: @Gopal, part (but only part) of the problem with emojis in domain names is the tiny differences between extremely similar images
01:28:50 Graeme Bunton: Hadia - I hosted a panel that tried to get at real examples. You can watch it here: https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-examing-real-examples-of-dns-abuse-overview-of-2nd-dns-abuse-forum
01:28:54 Joanna Kulesza: @Holly draft Second Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cybercrime (ETS 185) https://rm.coe.int/0900001680a42c4b hot off the press
01:29:21 Holly Raiche: Thanks Joanna
01:29:31 Joanna Kulesza: Articles 6 and 7 might be of particular interest.
01:29:58 LORI SCHULMAN: Agree that while "constrained" the Voluntary Framework definition does catch a net that will ensnare bad actors who infringe IP as well.
01:30:20 LORI SCHULMAN: And it is worthwhile to start somewhere to get where we need to be.
01:30:46 LORI SCHULMAN: Also agree that evidentiary standards are very helpful to the public and private sectors.
01:31:31 LORI SCHULMAN: We have even explored the idea of introducing some measure of data collection standards to brand owners so we can capture issue more consistently and accurately
01:32:21 LORI SCHULMAN: By "we", I meant INTA in this case.
01:32:41 Gopal Tadepalli: @Bill Jouris, thank you. I am sorry for being a bit tardy on the images used on the cover page on "The Psychology of Programming" by Gerald Marvin Weinberg. Things have become quite algorithmic. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
01:33:45 Ashirwad Tripathy ICANN72 Fellow: <Comment> Covid has amplified the need of internet in education. With more young kids using internet, addressing DNS abuse is very urgent. Thank you for your efforts.
01:34:30 Joanna Kulesza: This is why we love to have you over @Nigel! Thanks again for joining.
01:35:39 LORI SCHULMAN: I don't agree about DAAR.
01:35:48 LORI SCHULMAN: I don't think the contracted parties agree either.
01:35:55 Ashley Heineman: I would like to point folks to the immense amount of work that the CPH has been engaged in as of late.
01:35:58 LORI SCHULMAN: Inscrutible.
01:36:21 Graeme Bunton: I have to agree with Lori re: DAAR
01:36:26 LORI SCHULMAN: @Ashley - we appreciate the work and I think it is well noted.
01:36:48 Ashley Heineman: I believe I just heard that we now need to start doing something.
01:37:13 Steinar Grøtterød: You may check the abuse statistic for your TLD or list of domain names for free using https://abusestats.com
01:38:19 Olévié Kouami: Please could you call this number on french channel ? +22891482857
01:38:39 Olévié Kouami: Merci
01:42:07 Graeme Bunton: Oooh. We’re not touching Registrant data access. So very different in that sense.
01:42:29 Alan Woods: SSAD and the CART do appear to be quite wildly different.
01:43:31 James Bladel: Or even state-level actors
01:43:40 LORI SCHULMAN: Love that "onsie, twosie, script kittys"
01:43:51 LORI SCHULMAN: And agree about the serious of the larger criminal orgs.
01:43:57 Holly Raiche: Thanks James - that is what I was asking myselfg
01:45:23 Holly Raiche: Role of the RIRs?
01:46:00 Holly Raiche: Should the RIR’s be part of this conversation?
01:46:12 Christopher Wilkinson: Could we please have a definition of DAAR ((google doesn’t know!)
01:46:25 Graeme Bunton: Domain abuse activity reports
01:46:38 Dennis Tan: https://www.icann.org/octo-ssr/daar
01:46:42 Brian King: https://www.icann.org/octo-ssr/daar
01:47:56 Nigel Hickson UK GAC: Meant to ask about applicability of BRDA across all gTLDs? A quick win?
01:48:56 Hadia Elminiawi: So how would you use DAAR?
01:49:07 Chris Lewis-Evans (PSWG - UK): +1 Standardised mechanism for reporting will help effective and quicker action to be taken
01:49:41 Holly Raiche: Is one answer widening the role of DAAR?
01:49:42 Jeff Neuman: Agree with Brian. Unfortunately unless ICANN gets permission to share DAAR data, it cannot be used as a tool in the manner many would like.
01:50:09 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Yup points perhaps to be made in the PC
01:50:18 Daniel Nanghaka: There is a lot of restriction in DAAR and it cannot just be shared anyhow
01:50:42 Christopher Wilkinson: @DAAR. Should I encounter manifest abuse, what happens when I report the abuse to DAAR?
01:50:44 Jeff Neuman: @Holly - its very frustrating to get a notice from ICANN about abuse and then asking ICANN (a) what is the source of your information, (b) can you tell me exactly what activity is going on,, etc.....and them saying....we cannot tell you that
01:51:21 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: As Brian stated in his excellent metaphor... Screwdrivers probably not the best tool to try to hammer with.
01:51:22 Steinar Grøtterød: In my understanding, DAAR is a “tool” for ICANN Compliance and give for the public trends in DNS Abuse. Whether this is the best use of money, can be discussed
01:51:39 Jeff Neuman: @Steiner - agreed.
01:51:57 Bill Jouris: @Cheryl, but better than trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver
01:52:45 Holly Raiche: @ Jeff- thanks for the responsse
01:53:08 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: @Bill you can use a laser to cut butter as well … bit he ensuing results are probably not satisfactory or fit for purpose...
01:53:24 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: But the (typos sorry)
01:53:53 Donna Austin: Related to the DAAR discussion, the RySG undertook a review of DAAR twelve months ago and provided feedback to OCTO. https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/austin-to-conrad-09sep20-en.pdf
01:54:22 Bill Jouris: @Cheryl, so true!
01:54:25 Holly Raiche: Thanks Donna
01:57:03 Holly Raiche: Are we including the ccTLD registries in the discussions?
01:57:36 LORI SCHULMAN: But when they boil down to the DNS, it is an ICANN problem.
01:57:36 Brian Cimbolic: Holly CENTR usually has pretty robust discussions around DNS Abuse related questions
01:57:45 Holly Raiche: Thanks Brian
01:58:08 Holly Raiche: (@ Brian - and beyond CENTR
01:58:26 Brian Cimbolic: That I’m not sure of
01:58:26 Hadia Elminiawi: <Question> If DAAR is to show we are not doing well, what do we do next? <Question>
01:58:30 LORI SCHULMAN: For information about domain name registrants, it is.
01:58:48 Steinar Grøtterød: 17 ccTLDs are now included in DAAR (https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/daar-cctld-2021-05-11-en)
01:58:53 Holly Raiche: @ Brian - maybe part of a much larger problem???
01:59:12 J-P Voilleque - ICANN 72 Fellow: Not to shamelessly plug, but ICANNWiki would greatly benefit from the energy and expertise of the participants in this call. Editor Jessica Rivers has been overhauling and expanding our articles on DNS Abuse over the past year: https://icannwiki.org/DNS_Abuse
01:59:23 Brian Cimbolic: Potentially Holly, but it’s tricky because those are necessarily outside of ICANN’s remit
01:59:35 Holly Raiche: @ Brian - EXACTLY....
01:59:52 Joanna Kulesza: We will have a dedicated DNS Abuse section during the GAC/ALAC meeting for us to keep this discussion going. There clearly is more to be discussed. Great to have the PSWG join us here today!
02:00:13 Brian Cimbolic: It’s just one company but here’s the transparency data PIR publishes: https://thenew.org/org-people/about-pir/resources/anti-abuse-metrics/
02:00:16 LORI SCHULMAN: This was a great turnout Joanna -- thank you again to ALAC
02:01:02 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Thank you all for such an excellent session....
02:01:07 Gregory Shatan: More coordination and collaboration is in order. ICANN's limited remit does not force us to work in a vacuum -- quite the opposite.
02:01:20 Joanna Kulesza: +10 Greg!
02:01:28 Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Well noted @Greg
02:01:34 Nigel Hickson UK GAC: Joanna, many thanks
02:01:39 Sarah Kiden: Agree, Greg
02:02:15 Brian Cimbolic: More info on QPI www.qpi.org
02:03:32 Holly Raiche: Thanks for the link Brian - LOTS of reading to do
02:04:16 James Bladel: I’m sorry, I need to drop for another event. Thank you to ALAC for a thoughtful and engaging session, and all the speakers for contributing. I hope to “see” more of you at ICANN 72 next week!
02:04:34 Joanna Kulesza: Thank you for being here James!
02:05:49 Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow: Thank you all the speakers, it was great session!
02:08:42 maureen hilyard: An excellent overview of the session speakers contributions by Olivier.
02:09:12 Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org: Many thanks, All.
02:09:13 Robert Nkambwe (ICANN72 Fellow): Thanks Olivier.
02:09:20 Gopal Tadepalli: Do we have the luxury of distinguishing Data and Fact? - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
02:09:24 LORI SCHULMAN: Perfectly summarized Olivier. Well done!
02:09:38 LORI SCHULMAN: I think the answer to Joanna's question is that we are not ready to export this out of ICANN.
02:09:44 Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org: Thank you to all those who joined us here!
02:09:46 LORI SCHULMAN: but we can hope.
02:09:48 Chris Lewis-Evans (PSWG - UK): Thank you all.
02:09:50 Shi Young Chang: Thank you all.
02:09:51 Brian Cimbolic: Thanks so much, all!
02:09:51 Vanda Scartezini: Thank you all for so interesting meeting !
02:09:51 Hadia Elminiawi: Thank you all - bye for now
02:09:56 Lito Ibarra: Thank you all
02:09:59 Silvia Vivanco - ICANN Org: Thank you all!
02:09:59 Herb Waye Ombuds: Take care everyone, stay safe and be kind
02:09:59 Siranush Vardanyan - ICANN Org: Very thoughtful session, thanks to all speakers
02:10:01 Nigel Hickson UK GAC: well done olivier
02:10:01 Michel TCHONANG LINZE: Thank you very much
02:10:02 Alberto Soto: Thanks, bye bye!!
02:10:02 Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org: Thank you Joanna, presenters and all for joining!
02:10:05 Harold Arcos: Thank you all
02:10:07 maureen hilyard: thank you Joanna
02:10:08 Dave Kissoondoyal: Very interesting session.. thanks to the speakers and all
02:10:12 Mansur Mirzoev - ICANN72 Fellow: Thank you, very interesting session!
02:10:12 Ashirwad Tripathy ICANN72 Fellow: Thank you all
02:10:12 Roberto Gaetano: Bye all