Attendees:
Sub-group Members: Amal Al-saqqaf, Andreea Brambilla, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Corinne Cath, Dalila Rahmouni, Fiona Asonga, Herb Waye, Julie Hammer, Lousewies van der Laan, Mathieu Weill, Olga Cavalli, Rachel Pollack, Rafik Dammak, Renata Aquino Ribeiro, Sebastien Bachollet (16)
Observers/Guests:
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Julia Charvolen (5)
Apologies: Lito Ibarra, Finn Petersen
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
Agenda
1. Roll Call
2. Review of Actions items
3. Review of Draft Report:
- Issues list
4. AOB
Notes (including relevant portions of chat):
15 Participants at start of call
1. Roll Call
2. Review of Actions items
Rafik Dammak - resend of questionnaire was not sent but it has been updated. Would look for approval on the list before Copenhagen. Report from Chris Gift was distributed to the list - this will be discussed at a later meeting whe CG is available.
3. Review of Draft Report: - Issues list
Rafik Dammak: ""2.6 Skills: Diversity in skills contributes to the quality of ICANN policy formulation, decision-making and outreach. It is important to highlight and advocate the advantages of individuals bringing different and diverse skills sets into ICANN's many activities. All activities and groups within ICANN will benefit from having a diverse range of skills available. Outcomes formulated from diverse skills and knowledge will have higher probability of being accepted by a diverse community. Achieving diversity in skills should not be seen as a choice between skills and diversity which excludes participation, but rather one which values many skills sets and facilitates inclusion and broad participation. ""
Rafik Dammak - review of SKILLS discussion. Let us try and agree on text today.
Sebastien Bachollet - I would like to express the reverse of some of the opinions. As I have stated skills you can always learn - diversity you cannot change a person.
Rachel Pollack: The current wording seems much better to me. Building on what Sebastien said, perhaps the text could add an element related to the need for capacity building to further develop skills
Fiona Asonga - Diversity of skills can be looked from different angles - can also mean that there is a mix of those that have skills with those that have less - those with a lack of skill will have an impact on discussions and decisions - so for me it is about ensuring there is a balance. We have to include the will and capacity to learn as part of the skill equation - need balance.
Rafik Dammak - Like evaluating candidates for a job - you do not always get people with everything - need diversity to avoid group-think.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro - Will note strongly disagree with the idea that there is no opposition between skills and diversity. If we do not redouble efforts on diversity until there is some balance is achieved - otherwise we will keep to what is now - this is not acceptable.
Julie Hammer - Want to clarify - people seem to think that this para is a standalone element of diversity - it is not - this is just one of the components of the entire report - this skill discussion is a part of the entire report.
Mathieu Weill: +1 Julie, let's not get carried away.
Rafik Dammak - Agree with JH we should not make too much of this.
Sebastien Bachollet - I prefer a group with more diverstiy and less skills vs a highly skilled group with less diversity.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: Agree w/ Sebastien
mal Al-saqqaf: The nature of the position decides whether a specific skill is required or it's better to have diverse skills.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Sebastien, it is not about diversity OR skill, it is about diversity of skills. Everybody has some skills!
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: Julie, however, those who do get hired/selected do not represent diversity
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: The stats are on the document itself
avri doria: no amount of capacity training will give me the POV of an African.and thus i will never be able to bring the type of skill someone frm that region can bring.
Sebastien Bachollet - its not just a question of diversity - its about diversity of POV is critical.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: I agree it's not about any regional or aspect of diversity specific versus skill.. Yes, the POV is just not taken into account
avri doria: and skill & experience ate dependent on POV.
Mathieu Weill: We're still missing clarity on what we mean by skills. Tech skills ? Legal skills ? Which ones ? Negotiation skills, Reading & speaking English ? Project management skills ?
avri doria: yes all of those and any other skill that may be discovered as needed some day in the future.
Mathieu Weill: I agree with Avri that Point of View diversity is as required as skill
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: all of those and the disproportional value they are given to some privileged groups
Rafik Dammak - Example of Board requirements from the NomComm.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro - We really need to focus on diversity or nothing will ever happen.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: trying to sum up what I've said for notes: when one thinks about high-level selection, there's a high value given to centennial universities on the resumé or dot-com experiences, some people who meet the diversity criteria will not have that but bring other things and can be even better with the opportunity for capacity building
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: and yes Rafik you summed up well too
Julie Hammer - At this point in the report we are simply trying to explain what we mean for these various elements - and we are not trying to say what the situation is or should be - we are simply trying to explain what it is as a group we understand the term to mean - it is for later in the report whre we should be evaluating what it actually those elements of diversity mean in each of the elements of ICANN.
Amal Al-saqqaf: +1 Julie
Rafik Dammak - So JH is saying we can define things here and there is room later on for recommendations on all aspects including skills.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Yes, that's correct!
FIONA ASONGA: +1 Julie
Sebastien Bachollet - Skills are just one of the 7 types of diversity and all have to be taken into account.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: Achieving diversity in skills should not be seen as a choice between skills and diversity which excludes participation, but rather one which values many skills sets and facilitates inclusion and broad participation. ""
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: last phrase of the paragraph
Julie Hammer (SSAC): - That was not the intended meaning! If it is read in context of the report that it would not suggest that meaning.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): that makes sense to me Julie
Rafik Dammak - Following up on SB we may need to add text to state that all elements of diversity have to be considered vs putting too much weight on this para?
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: yes, make that a binding clause or yes, isolated, this wipes out the other efforts
Rafik Dammak - seems to be support to include text proposed by JH so I will include both in the document and I will add at the end of the section the need to consider all the elements. maybe SB will provide some chapeau text for this section as he proposed.
Lousewies van der Laan: A chapeau is a great idea - its used in treaties and helps get everyone on the same page
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: Yes
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: the text has this added phrase "If an original assessment of candidates is not sufficiently diverse to fulfill the skill, experience and diversity requirements necessary, then efforts need to be redoubled until diversity is achieved. Among those efforts, strengthening capacity building mechanisms for the skills required."
Rafik Dammak - let us move this to the list this way and hopefully we can reach consensus on this point. (no objection). Any other elements to discuss? There has been some mention of ANTI-DISCRIMINATION any thoughts about this given there are already some rules about this in ICANN.
Lousewies van der Laan - talking about what the grounds are for considering discrimination? (yes). If you start making a list it has to be very inclusive but there is a risk you will miss something - a more general statement can be more useful - we should decide what we want to do with this. Maybe we should go beyond DISCRIMINATION and move more towards other things such as being welcoming. We should list the DISCRIMINATION elements that are in ICANN.
Rafik Dammak - Good point LVDL.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): lists can be problematic IMO
avri doria: well we can use the 'inter alia' construction i.e including by not limited to.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): YES that helps if lists are essential...
Herb Waye Ombuds: well said Lousewies
avri doria: a comprehensive hite list is as hard to build as a bloack list. a comprehensive hite list is as hard to build as a black list.
Dalila Rahmouni: As written by Julie, non-discrimination and diversity are different.
FIONA ASONGA: I think we are assuming that the diversity mechanism is for leadership. That is just one aspect of ICANN it is also for the community and staff. I think we need to bear that braod perspective in mind
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): an affirmative approach is indeed my preference here as well... good points
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: I like the idea of referencing good practices, safe spaces too... Good practices should be highlighted
avri doria: and the bylaws to not include a non discimantory policy other than Section 2.3. NON-DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENTICANN shall not apply its standards, policies, procedures, or practices inequitably or single out any particular party for
Fiona Asonga - we seem to be concentrating on diversity for leadership but our mandate is to look at diversity for all elements of ICANN.
Rafik Dammak: thanks Avri, we can refer that in our document
avri doria: so according to the bylaws discrimination is the service of competition seems ok.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Fiona, that has always been my view, it is not just about leadership positions.
Dalila Rahmouni: Non-discrimination is part of Human Rights as Diversity a requirement
avri doria: also in core values: v) Make decisions by applying documented policies consistently, neutrally, objectively, and fairly, without singling out any particular party for discriminatory treatment (i.e., making an unjustified prejudicial distinction between or among different parties); and
lousewies: I agree Fiona ! well said
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): yes indeed
avri doria: the equal employment policy is very vanilla and a std doc for incororated entities.https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4C745NEsGNqd3N1ZXl0dVpVX2s the equal employment doc
Renata Aquino Ribeiro - status on office of diversity? Are we trying to develop a list of grounds for discrimination?
Rafik Dammak - It has been added to the document but we have not discussed it further. Additionally SB has sent a document about the Offices to the plenary list. Our document is open for comments and suggestions - ask everyone to contribute to the document and on list. As to the list it seems that there is a preference to have a general statement vs a list.
avri doria: it should be accesible.
Dalila Rahmouni: the proposal is the document page 8
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: yes about complaints and ombudsman offices etc
Dalila Rahmouni: Yes, suggestions are welcomed
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: ok thanks
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: about LW points on discrimination what was the stand again?
Fiona Asonga - have noted the various comments and will integrate in the document.
Rafik Dammak - thanks all and Adjourned.
Documents Presented
Chat Transcript
Yvette Guigneaux: (2/23/2017 18:18) Welcome all to the Diversity Meeting #13 | 24 February 2017 @ 13:00 UTC!
Herb Waye Ombuds: (2/24/2017 06:56) Hello all...
Brenda Brewer: (06:56) Good day all!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:56) Hi all
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (06:57) Hi
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:57) Reminder please mute if not speaking
Rafik: (06:58) hi all
Olga Cavalli: (07:00) hi all from Argentina
Dalila Rahmouni: (07:01) Hello
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:02) When will be the plennary in CPH again?
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:03) ok thanks
Mathieu Weill: (07:03) Hello everyone
Lousewies van der Laan: (07:04) Hi everyone
Brenda Brewer: (07:04) 10 March is F2F in Copenhagen
Rafik: (07:04) ""2.6 Skills: Diversity in skills contributes to the quality of ICANN policy formulation, decision-making and outreach. It is important to highlight and advocate the advantages of individuals bringing different and diverse skills sets into ICANN's many activities. All activities and groups within ICANN will benefit from having a diverse range of skills available. Outcomes formulated from diverse skills and knowledge will have higher probability of being accepted by a diverse community. Achieving diversity in skills should not be seen as a choice between skills and diversity which excludes participation, but rather one which values many skills sets and facilitates inclusion and broad participation. ""
Rachel Pollack: (07:10) The current wording seems much better to me. Building on what Sebastien said, perhaps the text could add an element related to the need for capacity building to further develop skills
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:15) yes
Mathieu Weill: (07:16) +1 Julie, let's not get carried away..
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:19) Agree w/ Sebastien
Amal Al-saqqaf: (07:19) The nature of the position decides whether a specific skill is required or it's better to have diverse skills.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (07:20) Sebastien, it is not about diversity OR skill, it is about diversity of skills. Everybody has some skills!
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:20) Julie, however, those who do get hired/selected do not represent diversity
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:20) The stats are on the document itself
avri doria: (07:20) no amount of capacity training will give me the POV of an African.
avri doria: (07:21) and thus i will never be able to bring the type of skill someone frm that region can bring.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:21) I agree it's not about any regional or aspect of diversity specific versus skill.. Yes, the POV is just not taken into account
avri doria: (07:22) and skill & experience ate dependendt on POV.
Mathieu Weill: (07:22) We're still missing clarity on what we mean by skills. Tech skills ? Legal skills ? Which ones ? Negotiation skills, Reading & speaking English ? Project management skills ?
avri doria: (07:22) yes all of those
avri doria: (07:23) and any other skill that may be discovered as needed some day in the future.
Mathieu Weill: (07:23) I agree with Avri that Point of View diversity is as required as skill
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:23) all of those and the disproportional value they are given to some privileged groups
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:26) just that
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:28) trying to sum up what I've said for notes: when one thinks about high-level selection, there's a high value given to centennial universities on the resumé or dot-com experiences, some people who meet the diversity criteria will not have that but bring other things and can be even better with the opportunity for capacity building
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:28) and yes Rafik you summed up well too
Amal Al-saqqaf: (07:29) +1 Julie
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (07:32) Yes, that's correct!
FIONA ASONGA: (07:32) +1 Julie
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:32) Achieving diversity in skills should not be seen as a choice between skills and diversity which excludes participation, but rather one which values many skills sets and facilitates inclusion and broad participation. ""
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:33) last phrase of the paragraph
FIONA ASONGA: (07:34) Thanks Sebastien
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (07:34) Time check: 25 minutes left in call
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (07:35) That was not the intended meaning!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:38) that makes sense to me Julie
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:39) yes, make that a binding clause
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:39) or yes, isolated, this wipes out the other efforts
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:43) the text has this added phrase "If an original assessment of candidates is not sufficiently diverse to fulfill the skill, experience and diversity requirements necessary, then efforts need to be redoubled until diversity is achieved. Among those efforts, strengthening capacity building mechanisms for the skills required."
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (07:45) Time check: 15 Minutes left in call
Lousewies van der Laan: (07:45) A chapeau is a great idea - its used in treaties and helps get everyone on the same page
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:46) Yes
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (07:47) Non-discrimination is different to seeking diversity.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:48) lists can be problematic IMO
avri doria: (07:48) well we can use the 'inter alia' construction i.e including by not limited to.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:48) YES that helps if lists are essential...
Herb Waye Ombuds: (07:49) well said Lousewies
avri doria: (07:49) a comprehensive hite list is as hard to build as a bloack list.
Dalila Rahmouni: (07:49) As writtent by Julie, non-discrimination and diversity are different.
FIONA ASONGA: (07:49) I think we are assuming that the diversity mechanism is for leadership. That is just one aspect of ICANN it is also for the community and staff. I think we need to bear that braod perspective in mind
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:49) an affirmative approach is indeed my preference here as well... good points
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:50) I like the idea of referencing good practices, safe spaces too...
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:50) Good practices should be highlighted
avri doria: (07:50) the staff group did receive the Staff eqqaul employment doc
Lousewies van der Laan: (07:50) I'm switching to audio only
Lousewies van der Laan: (07:50) old
avri doria: (07:51) and the bylaws to not include a non discimantory policy other than
avri doria: (07:52) Section 2.3. NON-DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENTICANN shall not apply its standards, policies, procedures, or practices inequitably or single out any particular party for disparate treatment unless justified by substantial and reasonable cause, such as the promotion of effective competition.
Rafik Dammak: (07:52) thanks Avri, we can refer that in our document
avri doria: (07:52) so according to the bylaws discrimination is the service of competition seems ok.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (07:53) Fiona, that has always been my view, it is not just about leadership positions.
Dalila Rahmouni: (07:53) Non-discrimination is part of Human Rghts as Diversity a requierment
avri doria: (07:53) also in core values:
avri doria: (07:53) v) Make decisions by applying documented policies consistently, neutrally, objectively, and fairly, without singling out any particular party for discriminatory treatment (i.e., making an unjustified prejudicial distinction between or among different parties); and
lousewies: (07:53) I agree Fiona ! well said
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:53) yes indeed
avri doria: (07:54) the equal employment policy is very vanilla and a std doc for incororated entities.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (07:55) Time check: 5 minutes left in call
FIONA ASONGA: (07:55) old hand
avri doria: (07:55) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__drive.google.com_drive_folders_0B4C745NEsGNqd3N1ZXl0dVpVX2s&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=6eOkaEnfH6u6xLGjIbO1Eu4USZ44Xd7VFPbEKBp6Pv0&s=q0j2z8ojQGbQfK9bRFzwMfCiPu2PaDhnk7HE7EBgTNc&e= the equal employment doc
avri doria: (07:55) it should be accesible.
Dalila Rahmouni: (07:56) the proposal is the document page 8
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:57) yes about complaints and ombudsman offices etc
Dalila Rahmouni: (07:57) Yes, suggestions are welcomed
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:57) ok thanks
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:58) about LW points on discrimation what was the stand again?
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:58) sorry
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:58) ok thanks
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (07:59) thanks for the info
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (08:00) great thanks fiona
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:00) thanks everyone... bye for now then...
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (08:00) thanks bye
Amal Al-saqqaf: (08:00) Thank you! Bye
Herb Waye Ombuds: (08:00) bye ak
Dalila Rahmouni: (08:00) thank you to the all group
Rachel Pollack: (08:00) thanks!
Herb Waye Ombuds: (08:00) bye all
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (08:00) bye all
avri doria: (08:00) bye
