Attendees: 

Sub-group Members:   Agustina Callegari, Alain Bidron, Andrew Harris, Avri Doria, Corinne Cath, David McAuley, Doaa Shendy, Edward Morris, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Jeff Neuman, Jorge Cancio, Milton Mueller, Matthew Shears, Mike Silber, Paul McGrady, Phil Buckingham, Phil Marano, Philip Corwin, Rafael Perez Galindo, Ryan Carroll, Samantha Eisner, Sonigitu Ekpe, Tatiana Tropina, Tijani Ben Jemaa, Vinay Kesari   (28)

Observers:  Adiel Akplogan, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Rishabh Dara, Taylor RW Bentley, Veni Markovski

Staff:  Bernie Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry, Nigel Hickson

Apologies:  Pedro da Silva

**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**


Transcript

Recording

Agenda

•  Welcome

•  Meeting Time Rotation

•  Work Plan and Schedule Overview (attached)

•  Plan to Develop Detailed Work Plan & Schedule

        •  Plan for September/October (see attached)

        •  Suggestions for overall Work Plan

        •  Our Goal is a Deliverable 

•  Discussion of Scope

        •  Do we begin with Scope?

                 •  Jordan Carter lightning talk suggested being “upfront about our interests”

        •  Detailed Reading of Google Doc (Staff Paper, as revised and annotated by Members of Subgroup)

        •  Creation of Scope Document?

•  Other Potential Inputs to our Work

        •  More Detailed Review of Lightning Talks

        •  Pertinent Literature (influenced by Scope)

        •  Experts/Legal Advice

•  AOB

  Adjourn

Notes

Welcome/Admin

Tatiana Tropina audio only for the moment.

No changes to SOIs.

Document: https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=61608546&preview=/61608546/61611662/CopyofWS2JurisdictionStaffIssuesPaper.pdf

•  Meeting Time Rotation

Greg Shatan: will rotate between 1300 and 1900 slots leaving aside the 0500. May vary days of the week but will avoid 1900 on Friday.

Kavouss Arasteh: could we shift 1900 to 2000?

Bernard Turcotte: Schedule will be reviewed with change to daylight savings later in the fall.

•  Work Plan and Schedule Overview (attached). Lookig to have a deliverable complete in February 2017. 

https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=61608546&preview=/61608546/61611660/Jurisdiction%20Agenda%20and%20Overview%20for%20Meeting%202.pdf

Greg Shatan: This work plan assumes we are a Complex project. Presentation of the slide.

Milton Mueller: this schedule seems unrealistic to me. We take 2.5 months to develop a work plan and don't talk substance until December, then we complete our "deliverable" in only one month?

David McAuley: We may be able to get into substance by asking participants to contribute to a gap analysis between the accountability framework that is being implemented vs its applicability vs jurisdictions.

Greg Shatan: Need a rolling list of action items. The first item should be this gap analysis.

Farzaneh Badii: Greg as to gap analysis you say in the doc that: I think there was a general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't result in any significant "gaps" 
relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there is a formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one we need to explore.

David McAuley: Do not remember any formal gap analysis from WS1. This is about the settlement of disputes jursidiction.

Kavouss Arasteh: there was no formal conclusion in WS1 that there was no gap.

 Kavouss Arasteh:  was  NOTa general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't result in any significant "gaps" relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there is a 
formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one we need to explore.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): We had very general discussions - that is what we did... 

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): anyway what is on the ws1 final papers is what represents our agreements...

David McAuley: agree w/Kavouss re gap - we have to check

•  Plan to Develop Detailed Work Plan & Schedule

        •  Plan for September/October (see attached)

        •  Suggestions for overall Work Plan

        •  Our Goal is a Deliverable 

•  Discussion of Scope

        •  Do we begin with Scope?

                 •  Jordan Carter lightning talk suggested being “upfront about our interests”

        •  Detailed Reading of Google Doc (Staff Paper, as revised and annotated by Members of Subgroup)

Kavouss Arasteh:  Not in favour of Applicable Law?   CORRECTION per Kavouss Arasteh:  Is in favor of Appliciable Law

Greg Shatan: no issue since it is in Annex 12.

David McAuley: disputes should include legal actions vs ICANN in various jurisdictions?

Milton Mueller: so jurisdictional effects on two distinct things: 1) accountability mechanisms; 2) actual operation of policies (whatever that means) And by 2) we are referring 
primarily to dispute resolution

jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): At the same time we said that this refers "primarily" to 1) settlement of disputes, including choice of jurisdiction and applicable laws, what disputes "within ICANN" means could also be useful.

Greg Shatan: Within ICANN implies actors within ICANN but it would seem undluly restrictive to say this only includes ICANN's internal dispute resolution processes. 

jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): within ICANN  I guess covers all parties affected by ICANN decisions and which may bring an internal claim against it.

Kavouss Arasteh: why NOT NECESSARILY?

David McAuley: From WS1 recollection the NECESSARILY comes in if the gap analysis notes that the accountability mechanisms are broken (material problem) because of jurisdiction.

Edward Morris: My recollection is the same as David's

David McAuley: Thanks Kavouss, and I think that is part of our task. Good question you asked.

Milton Mueller: I think many of these points could be best pursued on the list, in writing

David McAuley: +1 Milton

Avri Doria: so ICANN is only incorporated in one place and these lesser 'registrations' do not affect jurisdiction? Registrations and their relation to incorporation are essentially different with respect to jurisdictional obligations? Is so where are jurisdictional issues related to multiple registrations dealt with?

Vinay Kesari: Agree with Paul. I think ICANN has gone on record stating specifically that local offices are subject to local laws on issues such as employment.

Kavouss Arasteh: best to use both email list and Google doc. As to this question is it not too detailed at this time?

Avri Doria: what is the status of the ICANN presence in non-US jurisdiction?

Greg Shatan: Action Item - this should be answered by ICANN legal.

Samantha Eisner: We have to adhere to laws that allow us to have offices in different locations but I can confirm that we have not incorporated in any other location

Samantha Eisner: ICANN typically is a "branch" location or a registered foreign office equivalent 

Jeff Neuman: I would like to know the difference between "Engagement Centers", "HUBs", "Offices", etc/

Avri Doria: Not incorporated? Also not registered as some sort of company?

Jeff Neuman: Is there a way to get those definitions from ICANN staff?

Jeff Neuman: I have to admit I never understood Fadi's distinctions

Samantha Eisner: Yes, Jeff

Greg Shatan: Will start the next version of the google doc and circulate.

Vinay Kesari: Hi Avri, many countries (India for example) allow a foreign company to set up a 
representative/ branch office locally. This is not a separate legal entity, can't sue/ be sued. But it 
requires a registration

        •  Creation of Scope Document?

•  Other Potential Inputs to our Work

        •  More Detailed Review of Lightning Talks

        •  Pertinent Literature (influenced by Scope)

        •  Experts/Legal Advice 

•  AOB

•  Adjourn

Greg Shatan: Adjourned

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #2 on 8 September @ 13:00 UTC!
doaa shendy:Hello all, glad to join you
Veni Markovski:hi, everyone!
Sonigitu Ekpe:Hello All, happy to be here.
Brenda Brewer:If your phone number is showing up in Attendee pod, please identify your name. Thank you!
Jeff Neuman:For ease of review, can we include a link to the staff paper in the agenda on the right?
Agustina Callegari:Hello, everyone!
David McAuley:Hi Brenda, today I am 4154
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:hello all
Veni Markovski:could people mute their lines, please?
m:Greetings, all. This is Milton - aka "m"
m:was a bit hasty hitting return and the system won't let me go back and fix it
Vinay Kesari:Hi all. M, we forgive you.
Farzaneh Badii:undercover Milton!
David McAuley:Thanks Bernie
Milton Mueller:Someone has the power to change my name!
Farzaneh Badii:You can actually edit yur name here
Milton Mueller:And it isn't me!
Farzaneh Badii:oh!
nigel hickson:good afternoon
Jeff Neuman:Sorry to ask again, but can we post the link to the google doc on the agenda on the right?
Brenda Brewer:For attendance, please identify your name if phone number is listed. Thank you!
Sonigitu Ekpe:I am not receiving audio
Matthew Shears:poor connection will try again
Paul McGrady:Good morning/afternoon/evening.
Vinay Kesari:Apologies, seem to have an issue with audio. Just said hello, can people hear me?
Brenda Brewer:@ Sonigitu - Audio is working well if you have system call out to you.
Milton Mueller:no Vinay
Milton Mueller:We forgive you, Vinay
Paul McGrady:The Best! We'll love it.
Milton Mueller:No
Jeff Neuman:There are other calls scheduled for Thursdays at 20:00 UTC
Jeff Neuman:Including the Subsequent Rounds PDP :)
Jeff Neuman:Subsequent Procedures PDP...sorry
Farzaneh Badii:we might need experts for time management.
Tatiana Tropina 2:Hi all :) managed to get adobe workingon the train, What a delight to read the chat
Avri Doria:note: a lot of other groups are scheduling around these WS2 meeting. changing it will affect more than just WS2
Avri Doria:WS2 claimed 3 time bands through the whole week, would be nive to have it live within its time grab.
Kavouss Arasteh:Fair Enough
doaa shendy:yes that's right
Paul McGrady:We need a PDP to create New Hours in the DNS. Additional hours in the day will increase competition and consumer choice. However, we want to make sure that the new hours do nothave an adverse effect on the security and stability of the global calendaring system. :)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):+1 Paul
Brenda Brewer:page is synced. you all may scroll down to page Greg is speaking of
Milton Mueller:We do have scroll control
Farzaneh Badii:we are looking at that
Milton Mueller:we have no choice
Milton Mueller:what is the target?>
Milton Mueller:this schedule seems unrealistic to me. We take 2.5 months to develop a work plan and don't talk substance until December, then we complete our "deliverable" in only one month?
Paul McGrady:+1 Milton, especially given various holidays falling in December and January.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):yesterday, i.e. this morning in Europe, right?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):the work on collaborative docs is useful, I think
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):keeps the discussions focused
Farzaneh Badii:Greg as to gap analysis you say in the doc that: I think there was a general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't result in any significant "gaps" relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there is a formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one we need to explore.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:not that I am aware of
Kavouss Arasteh: was NOTa general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't result in any significant "gaps" relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there is a formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one we need to explore.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):We had very general discussions - that is what we did...
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):anyway what is on the ws1 final papers is what represents our agreements...
David McAuley:agree w/Kavouss re gap - we have to check
Milton Mueller:Agree, Greg. Must be at least a pro forma statement that there is or isn't a "GAP"
Milton Mueller:Can we come up with a better name for it? Please?
David McAuley:discrepancy study
Milton Mueller:Accountabiltiy shortfall?
Tatiana Tropina 2::D :D :D
Kavouss Arasteh:Milton +1
Farzaneh Badii:jurisdictional shortfalls. somehow has to relate to jurisdiction. no?
Milton Mueller:Ye
Milton Mueller:Yes, Farzaneh
Tatiana Tropina 2:+ 1 Farzy
Kavouss Arasteh:It ay be good to have an alternative term instead of Gap Analysis"
Milton Mueller:jurisdictional accountability shortfalls is what we are looking for, right?
Corinne Cath:jurisdictional abysses? (JAB)
Milton Mueller:;-)))
Farzaneh Badii:we do :)
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:yes scroll control is enabled
Milton Mueller:it's better than a clothing chain
Milton Mueller:we could have left JABs and right JABs, too
Corinne Cath:and staring into the JABS
Milton Mueller:Trademark people might complain if we use GAP
Milton Mueller:And we must always keep the rights holders happy
Farzaneh Badii:always
David McAuley:part off our scope
David McAuley:part of, that is
Farzaneh Badii:Do we know what we mean by actual operation of policies ?
David McAuley:appplicable laws does appear in annex 12
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):verbatim from annex 12: "30 At this point in the CCWG-Accountability’s work, the main issues that need to be investigatedwithin Work Stream 2 relate to the influence that ICANN´s existing jurisdiction may have on theactual operation of policies and accountability mechanisms. This refers primarily to the processfor the settlement of disputes within ICANN, involving the choice of jurisdiction and of theapplicable laws, but not necessarily the location where ICANN is incorporated:•Consideration of jurisdiction in Work Stream 2 will focus on the settlement of disputejurisdiction issues and include:o Confirming and assessing the gap analysis, clarifying all concerns regarding themulti-layer jurisdiction issue.o Identifying potential alternatives and benchmarking their ability to match allCCWG-Accountability requirements using the current framework.o Consider potential Work Stream 2 recommendations based on the conclusions ofthis analysis."
Milton Mueller:so jurisdictional effects on two distinct things: 1) accountability mechanisms; 2) actual operation of policies (whatever that means)
Milton Mueller:And by 2) we are referring primarily to dispute resolution
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):At the same time we said that this refers "primarily" to 1) settlement of disputes, including choice of jurisdiction and applicable laws
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):what disputes "within ICANN" means could also be useful
David McAuley:thanks Greg
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):within ICANN I guess covers all parties affected by ICANN decisions and which may bring an internal claim against it...
Vinay Kesari:'within ICANN' could (I imagine) also include disputes b/w the empowered community and board
Edward Morris:My recollection is the same as David's
Kavouss Arasteh:Thanks David
Avri Doria:is there an element of location of incorproation in the plural sense of having multiiple incorproations, and that may have both postive and negative aspects
Kavouss Arasteh:Davidm, the clarification you did provide perhaps could be added to the text
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:timing note 15 minutes to the top of the hour
David McAuley:Thanks Kavouss, and I think that is part of our task. Good question you asked.
Milton Mueller:I think many of these points could be best pursued on the list, in writing
David McAuley:+1 Milton
David McAuley:google doc becomes a little hard to follow as comments pile up
Paul McGrady:+1 Milton. Google Docs, while nice, do not allow the competition of ideas that the List provides.
Kavouss Arasteh:Milton and David + 1
Kavouss Arasteh:Paul+ 1
Milton Mueller:Google docs is appropriate when we are converging on ideas and wording, but in the initial exchanges we need to discuss on the list
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel we have to work with both means - the collaborative docs keep the debates focused
Kavouss Arasteh:Jorge+1
Kavouss Arasteh:Both Google and List
Avri Doria:so ICANN is only incoroated in one place and these lesser 'registrations' do not affect jurisdiction? registrations and their relation to incorproation are essentially different with repsect to jurisdictional obligations? is so where are jurisdictional issues related to multiple registrations dealt with?
Milton Mueller:Tijani , mute please
David McAuley:please mute if not speaking
David McAuley:I think Paul is correct
Samantha Eisner:I agree with Paul as well
Vinay Kesari:Agree with Paul. I think ICANN has gone on record stating specifically that local offices are subject to local laws on issues such as employment.
Samantha Eisner:We have to adhere to laws that allow us to have offices in different locations. but I can confirm that we have not incorporated in any other location
Samantha Eisner:ICANN typically is a "branch" location or a registered foreign office equivalent
Jeff Neuman:I would like to know the difference between "ENgagement Centers", "HUBs", "Offices", etc/
Avri Doria:not incorprated? also not registered as some sort of company?
Jeff Neuman:Is there a way to get those definitions from ICANN staff?
Jeff Neuman:I have to admit I never understood Fadi's distinctions
Samantha Eisner:yes, jeff
Avri Doria:i can register as a comapny, perhaps on llc, but it gives me additonal jurisdictional obligations. was wondering whether ICANN had any of these.
Jeff Neuman:Great? Can we capture as an action item
Vinay Kesari:Hi Avri, many countries (India for example) allow a foreign company to set up a representative/ branch office locally. This is not a separate legal entity, can't sue/ be sued. But it requires a registration.
Paul McGrady:Good call. Glad we are getting into the substance.
David McAuley:will do, Greg
Farzaneh Badii:Thanks Vinay, that's helpful
Avri Doria:thansk, and apologies for any confuusion my confusion may have casued.
Farzaneh Badii:I do that in my free time :)
David McAuley:Thanks Greg, Vinay, staff, and all
nigel hickson:thanks
Farzaneh Badii:thanks all. bye
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks to all and bye!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:bye all


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