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Sub-group Members: Agustina Callegari, Alai= n Bidron, Andrew Harris, Avri Doria, Corinne Cath, David McAuley, Doaa Shen= dy, Edward Morris, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barn= ett, Jeff Neuman, Jorge Cancio, Milton Mueller, Matthew Shears, Mike Silber= , Paul McGrady, Phil Buckingham, Phil Marano, Philip Corwin, Rafael Perez G= alindo, Ryan Carroll, Samantha Eisner, Sonigitu Ekpe, Tatiana Tropina, Tija= ni Ben Jemaa, Vinay Kesari (28)
Observers: Adiel Akplogan, Cheryl Langdon-Orr,&nb= sp;Rishabh Dara, Taylor RW Bentley, Veni Markovski
Staff: Bernie Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulb= erry, Nigel Hickson
Apologies: = Pedro da Silva
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (at= tendees or apologies).**
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p7g1eqz7b6i/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/accountability/ccwg-accountability-jurisdictio= n-08sep16-en.mp3
=E2=80=A2 Welcome
=E2=80=A2 Meeting Time&nbs= p;Rotation
=E2=80=A2 Work Plan a= nd Schedule Overview (attached)
=E2=80=A2 Plan to Dev= elop Detailed Work Plan & Schedule
= =E2=80=A2 Plan for September/October (see&n= bsp;attached)
= =E2=80=A2 Suggestions for overall Work = ;Plan
= =E2=80=A2 Our Goal is a Deliverable&nb= sp;
=E2=80=A2 Discussion of&nb= sp;Scope
= =E2=80=A2 Do we begin with Scope?
= =E2=80=A2 = Jordan Carter lightning talk suggested being= =E2=80=9Cupfront about our interests=E2=80=9D= p>
= =E2=80=A2 Detailed Reading of Google D= oc (Staff Paper, as revised and annotated&nbs= p;by Members of Subgroup)
= =E2=80=A2 Creation of Scope Document?
=E2=80=A2 Other Potential&= nbsp;Inputs to our Work
= =E2=80=A2 More Detailed Review of Ligh= tning Talks
= =E2=80=A2 Pertinent Literature (influenced = by Scope)
= =E2=80=A2 Experts/Legal Advice
=E2=80=A2 AOB
=E2=80=A2 Adjourn
Welcome/Admin
Tatiana Tropina audio only for the moment.=
No changes to SOIs.
=E2=80=A2 Meeting Time Rotation
Greg Shatan: will rotate between 1300 and&= nbsp;1900 slots leaving aside the 0500. May&n= bsp;vary days of the week but will avoid= 1900 on Friday.
Kavouss Arasteh: could we shift 1900 to&nb= sp;2000?
Bernard Turcotte: Schedule will be reviewed&nbs= p;with change to daylight savings later in&nb= sp;the fall.
=E2=80=A2 Work Plan and Schedule Overview= (attached). Lookig to have a deliverable&nbs= p;complete in February 2017.
Greg Shatan: This work plan assumes we&nbs= p;are a Complex project. Presentation of the&= nbsp;slide.
Milton Mueller: this schedule seems= unrealistic to me. We take 2.5 months&n= bsp;to develop a work plan and don't tal= k substance until December, then we complete&= nbsp;our "deliverable" in only one month?
David McAuley: We may be able to get&= nbsp;into substance by asking participants to = ;contribute to a gap analysis between the&nbs= p;accountability framework that is being implement= ed vs its applicability vs jurisdictions.
Greg Shatan: Need a&= nbsp;rolling list of action items. The first&= nbsp;item should be this gap analysis.
Farzaneh Badii: Greg as to gap=
analysis you say in the doc that: =
I think there was a general conclusion t=
hat ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't result&nbs=
p;in any significant "gaps"
relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there&nb=
sp;is a formal "gap analysis" is another =
;question, and one we need to explore.
David McAuley: Do not remember any formal&= nbsp;gap analysis from WS1. This is about&nbs= p;the settlement of disputes jursidiction.
Kavouss Arasteh: there was no formal conclusion= in WS1 that there was no gap.
Kavouss Arasteh: was N=
OTa general conclusion that ICANN's current j=
urisdiction didn't result in any significant =
"gaps" relating to ICANN accountability. Whether&n=
bsp;there is a
formal "gap analysis" is another question, an=
d one we need to explore.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): We = had very general discussions - that is w= hat we did...
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): anyway&n= bsp;what is on the ws1 final papers is&n= bsp;what represents our agreements...
David McAuley: agree w/Kavouss re&n= bsp;gap - we have to check
=E2=80=A2 Plan to Develop Detailed Work&n= bsp;Plan & Schedule
=E2=80=A2 Pla= n for September/October (see attached)
=E2=80=A2 Sug= gestions for overall Work Plan
=E2=80=A2 Our= Goal is a Deliverable
=E2=80=A2 Discussion of Scope
=E2=80=A2 Do&= nbsp;we begin with Scope?
= =E2=80=A2 Jordan Carter = lightning talk suggested being =E2=80=9Cupfront ab= out our interests=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=A2 Det= ailed Reading of Google Doc (Staff Paper,&nbs= p;as revised and annotated by Members of = ;Subgroup)
Kavouss Arasteh: Not in favour of Appl=
icable Law? CORRECTION per Kavouss Arasteh: Is in fav=
or of Appliciable Law
Greg Shatan: no issue since it is in&= nbsp;Annex 12.
David McAuley: disputes should include legal&nb= sp;actions vs ICANN in various jurisdictions?
Milton Mueller: so jurisdictional e=
ffects on two distinct things: 1) accountabil=
ity mechanisms; 2) actual operation of polici=
es (whatever that means) And by 2) we&nb=
sp;are referring
primarily to dispute resolution
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): At&= nbsp;the same time we said that this ref= ers "primarily" to 1) settlement of disputes,= including choice of jurisdiction and applica= ble laws, what disputes "within ICANN" means = could also be useful.
Greg Shatan: Within ICANN implies actors within= ICANN but it would seem undluly restric= tive to say this only includes ICANN's i= nternal dispute resolution processes.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): wit= hin ICANN I guess covers all parties&nb= sp;affected by ICANN decisions and which may&= nbsp;bring an internal claim against it.
Kavouss Arasteh: why NOT NECESSARILY?
David McAuley: From WS1 recollection the N= ECESSARILY comes in if the gap analysis = notes that the accountability mechanisms are = broken (material problem) because of jurisdiction.=
Edward Morris: My recollection is&n= bsp;the same as David's
David McAuley: Thanks Kavouss, and&= nbsp;I think that is part of our task.&n= bsp;Good question you asked.
Milton Mueller: I think many o= f these points could be best pursued on&= nbsp;the list, in writing
David McAuley: +1 Milton
Avri Doria: so ICANN is only&n= bsp;incorporated in one place and these lesse= r 'registrations' do not affect jurisdiction? Regi= strations and their relation to incorporation = ;are essentially different with respect to ju= risdictional obligations? Is so where are jurisdic= tional issues related to multiple registrations&nb= sp;dealt with?
Vinay Kesari: Agree with Paul. = ;I think ICANN has gone on record statin= g specifically that local offices are subject= to local laws on issues such as em= ployment.
Kavouss Arasteh: best to use both email li= st and Google doc. As to this question&n= bsp;is it not too detailed at this time?=
Avri Doria: what is the status of the= ICANN presence in non-US jurisdiction?
Greg Shatan: Action = Item - this should be answered by ICANN&= nbsp;legal.
Samantha Eisner: We have to ad= here to laws that allow us to have = offices in different locations but I can conf= irm that we have not incorporated in any= other location
Samantha Eisner: ICANN typically is= a "branch" location or a registered for= eign office equivalent
Jeff Neuman: I would like to&n= bsp;know the difference between "Engagement Center= s", "HUBs", "Offices", etc/
Avri Doria: Not incorporated? Also not&n= bsp;registered as some sort of company?
Jeff Neuman: Is there a way&nb= sp;to get those definitions from ICANN staff?=
Jeff Neuman: I have to admit&n= bsp;I never understood Fadi's distinctions
Samantha Eisner: Yes, Jeff
Greg Shatan: Will start the next version o= f the google doc and circulate.
Vinay Kesari: Hi Avri, many co=
untries (India for example) allow a foreign&n=
bsp;company to set up a
representative/ branch office locally. This is&nbs=
p;not a separate legal entity, can't sue/&nbs=
p;be sued. But it
requires a registration
=E2=80=A2 Cre= ation of Scope Document?
=E2=80=A2 Other Potential Inputs to our&n= bsp;Work
=E2=80=A2 Mor= e Detailed Review of Lightning Talks
=E2=80=A2 Per= tinent Literature (influenced by Scope)
=E2=80=A2 Exp= erts/Legal Advice
=E2=80=A2 AOB
=E2=80=A2 Adjourn
Greg Shatan: Adjourned
Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting =
#2 on 8 September @ 13:00 UTC!
doaa shendy:Hello all, glad to join you
Veni Markovski:hi, everyone!
Sonigitu Ekpe:Hello All, happy to be here.
Brenda Brewer:If your phone number is showing up in Attendee pod, please i=
dentify your name. Thank you!
Jeff Neuman:For ease of review, can we include a link to the staff paper i=
n the agenda on the right?
Agustina Callegari:Hello, everyone!
David McAuley:Hi Brenda, today I am 4154
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:hello all
Veni Markovski:could people mute their lines, please?
m:Greetings, all. This is Milton - aka "m"
m:was a bit hasty hitting return and the system won't let me go back and f=
ix it
Vinay Kesari:Hi all. M, we forgive you.
Farzaneh Badii:undercover Milton!
David McAuley:Thanks Bernie
Milton Mueller:Someone has the power to change my name!
Farzaneh Badii:You can actually edit yur name here
Milton Mueller:And it isn't me!
Farzaneh Badii:oh!
nigel hickson:good afternoon
Jeff Neuman:Sorry to ask again, but can we post the link to the google doc=
on the agenda on the right?
Brenda Brewer:For attendance, please identify your name if phone number is=
listed. Thank you!
Sonigitu Ekpe:I am not receiving audio
Matthew Shears:poor connection will try again
Paul McGrady:Good morning/afternoon/evening.
Vinay Kesari:Apologies, seem to have an issue with audio. Just said hello,=
can people hear me?
Brenda Brewer:@ Sonigitu - Audio is working well if you have system call o=
ut to you.
Milton Mueller:no Vinay
Milton Mueller:We forgive you, Vinay
Paul McGrady:The Best! We'll love it.
Milton Mueller:No
Jeff Neuman:There are other calls scheduled for Thursdays at 20:00 UTC
Jeff Neuman:Including the Subsequent Rounds PDP :)
Jeff Neuman:Subsequent Procedures PDP...sorry
Farzaneh Badii:we might need experts for time management.
Tatiana Tropina 2:Hi all :) managed to get adobe workingon the train, What=
a delight to read the chat
Avri Doria:note: a lot of other groups are scheduling around these WS2 mee=
ting. changing it will affect more than just WS2
Avri Doria:WS2 claimed 3 time bands through the whole week, would be nive =
to have it live within its time grab.
Kavouss Arasteh:Fair Enough
doaa shendy:yes that's right
Paul McGrady:We need a PDP to create New Hours in the DNS. Additional hour=
s in the day will increase competition and consumer choice. However, we wan=
t to make sure that the new hours do nothave an adverse effect on the secur=
ity and stability of the global calendaring system. :)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):+1 Paul
Brenda Brewer:page is synced. you all may scroll down to page Greg is spea=
king of
Milton Mueller:We do have scroll control
Farzaneh Badii:we are looking at that
Milton Mueller:we have no choice
Milton Mueller:what is the target?>
Milton Mueller:this schedule seems unrealistic to me. We take 2.5 months t=
o develop a work plan and don't talk substance until December, then we comp=
lete our "deliverable" in only one month?
Paul McGrady:+1 Milton, especially given various holidays falling in Decem=
ber and January.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):yesterday, i.e. this morning in Europe, rig=
ht?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):the work on collaborative docs is useful, I=
think
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):keeps the discussions focused
Farzaneh Badii:Greg as to gap analysis you say in the doc that: I think th=
ere was a general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdiction didn't resul=
t in any significant "gaps" relating to ICANN accountability. Whether there=
is a formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one we need to explore=
.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:not that I am aware of
Kavouss Arasteh: was NOTa general conclusion that ICANN's current jurisdic=
tion didn't result in any significant "gaps" relating to ICANN accountabili=
ty. Whether there is a formal "gap analysis" is another question, and one w=
e need to explore.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):We had very general discussions - that is w=
hat we did...
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):anyway what is on the ws1 final papers is w=
hat represents our agreements...
David McAuley:agree w/Kavouss re gap - we have to check
Milton Mueller:Agree, Greg. Must be at least a pro forma statement that th=
ere is or isn't a "GAP"
Milton Mueller:Can we come up with a better name for it? Please?
David McAuley:discrepancy study
Milton Mueller:Accountabiltiy shortfall?
Tatiana Tropina 2::D :D :D
Kavouss Arasteh:Milton +1
Farzaneh Badii:jurisdictional shortfalls. somehow has to relate to jurisdi=
ction. no?
Milton Mueller:Ye
Milton Mueller:Yes, Farzaneh
Tatiana Tropina 2:+ 1 Farzy
Kavouss Arasteh:It ay be good to have an alternative term instead of Gap A=
nalysis"
Milton Mueller:jurisdictional accountability shortfalls is what we are loo=
king for, right?
Corinne Cath:jurisdictional abysses? (JAB)
Milton Mueller:;-)))
Farzaneh Badii:we do :)
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:yes scroll control is enabled
Milton Mueller:it's better than a clothing chain
Milton Mueller:we could have left JABs and right JABs, too
Corinne Cath:and staring into the JABS
Milton Mueller:Trademark people might complain if we use GAP
Milton Mueller:And we must always keep the rights holders happy
Farzaneh Badii:always
David McAuley:part off our scope
David McAuley:part of, that is
Farzaneh Badii:Do we know what we mean by actual operation of policies ? <=
br>
David McAuley:appplicable laws does appear in annex 12
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):verbatim from annex 12: "30 At this point i=
n the CCWG-Accountability=E2=80=99s work, the main issues that need to be i=
nvestigatedwithin Work Stream 2 relate to the influence that ICANN=C2=B4s e=
xisting jurisdiction may have on theactual operation of policies and accoun=
tability mechanisms. This refers primarily to the processfor the settlement=
of disputes within ICANN, involving the choice of jurisdiction and of thea=
pplicable laws, but not necessarily the location where ICANN is incorporate=
d:=E2=80=A2=EF=80=A0Consideration of jurisdiction in Work Stream 2 will foc=
us on the settlement of disputejurisdiction issues and include:o Confirming=
and assessing the gap analysis, clarifying all concerns regarding themulti=
-layer jurisdiction issue.o Identifying potential alternatives and benchmar=
king their ability to match allCCWG-Accountability requirements using the c=
urrent framework.o Consider potential Work Stream 2 recommendations based o=
n the conclusions ofthis analysis."
Milton Mueller:so jurisdictional effects on two distinct things: 1) accoun=
tability mechanisms; 2) actual operation of policies (whatever that means)<=
br>
Milton Mueller:And by 2) we are referring primarily to dispute resolution<=
br>
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):At the same time we said that this refers "=
primarily" to 1) settlement of disputes, including choice of jurisdiction a=
nd applicable laws
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):what disputes "within ICANN" means could al=
so be useful
David McAuley:thanks Greg
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):within ICANN I guess covers all parties aff=
ected by ICANN decisions and which may bring an internal claim against it..=
.
Vinay Kesari:'within ICANN' could (I imagine) also include disputes b/w th=
e empowered community and board
Edward Morris:My recollection is the same as David's
Kavouss Arasteh:Thanks David
Avri Doria:is there an element of location of incorproation in the plural =
sense of having multiiple incorproations, and that may have both postive an=
d negative aspects
Kavouss Arasteh:Davidm, the clarification you did provide perhaps could be=
added to the text
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:timing note 15 minutes to the top of the ho=
ur
David McAuley:Thanks Kavouss, and I think that is part of our task. Good q=
uestion you asked.
Milton Mueller:I think many of these points could be best pursued on the l=
ist, in writing
David McAuley:+1 Milton
David McAuley:google doc becomes a little hard to follow as comments pile =
up
Paul McGrady:+1 Milton. Google Docs, while nice, do not allow the competit=
ion of ideas that the List provides.
Kavouss Arasteh:Milton and David + 1
Kavouss Arasteh:Paul+ 1
Milton Mueller:Google docs is appropriate when we are converging on ideas =
and wording, but in the initial exchanges we need to discuss on the list
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel we have to work with both means - th=
e collaborative docs keep the debates focused
Kavouss Arasteh:Jorge+1
Kavouss Arasteh:Both Google and List
Avri Doria:so ICANN is only incoroated in one place and these lesser 'regi=
strations' do not affect jurisdiction? registrations and their relation to =
incorproation are essentially different with repsect to jurisdictional obli=
gations? is so where are jurisdictional issues related to multiple registra=
tions dealt with?
Milton Mueller:Tijani , mute please
David McAuley:please mute if not speaking
David McAuley:I think Paul is correct
Samantha Eisner:I agree with Paul as well
Vinay Kesari:Agree with Paul. I think ICANN has gone on record stating spe=
cifically that local offices are subject to local laws on issues such as em=
ployment.
Samantha Eisner:We have to adhere to laws that allow us to have offices in=
different locations. but I can confirm that we have not incorporated in an=
y other location
Samantha Eisner:ICANN typically is a "branch" location or a registered for=
eign office equivalent
Jeff Neuman:I would like to know the difference between "ENgagement Center=
s", "HUBs", "Offices", etc/
Avri Doria:not incorprated? also not registered as some sort of company?
Jeff Neuman:Is there a way to get those definitions from ICANN staff?
Jeff Neuman:I have to admit I never understood Fadi's distinctions
Samantha Eisner:yes, jeff
Avri Doria:i can register as a comapny, perhaps on llc, but it gives me ad=
ditonal jurisdictional obligations. was wondering whether ICANN had any of =
these.
Jeff Neuman:Great? Can we capture as an action item
Vinay Kesari:Hi Avri, many countries (India for example) allow a foreign c=
ompany to set up a representative/ branch office locally. This is not a sep=
arate legal entity, can't sue/ be sued. But it requires a registration.
Paul McGrady:Good call. Glad we are getting into the substance.
David McAuley:will do, Greg
Farzaneh Badii:Thanks Vinay, that's helpful
Avri Doria:thansk, and apologies for any confuusion my confusion may have =
casued.
Farzaneh Badii:I do that in my free time :)
David McAuley:Thanks Greg, Vinay, staff, and all
nigel hickson:thanks
Farzaneh Badii:thanks all. bye
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks to all and bye!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:bye all