Attendees:
Sub-group Members: Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Claudio Lucena, David McAuley, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Herb Waye, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Raphael Beauegard-Lacroix,Steve DelBianco, Thiago Jardim
Observers/Guests: /
ICANN Org: Bernard Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Meghan Healy
Apologies:
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
Agenda
- Welcome
- Review Agenda
- Administrative Minute (SOI’s, Audio or Phone Number Participants)
- Resolve Remaining Open Items in Report (See chart for details)
- Review revised text regarding other related sanctions (now in footnote).
- Confirm revised recommendation on choosing from Choice of Law Menu.
- Section describing Work of Subgroup after Report sent to Plenary now accepted into Report.
- Review proposed new text about adding “Further Discussion of Jurisdiction-Related Concerns” to Report.
- 4.1. Consider proposal to add text about Comments regarding further jurisdiction-related discussions.
- Review revised version of proposed paragraph on importance of OFAC Sanctions recommendations.
- Stress Tests now accepted into Report.
- Review proposed “friendly amendment” to ST #1.
- Steps needed to submit revised Subgroup Report to Plenary on 2 March
- AOB
- Adjourn
Raw Captioning Notes
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
Decisions:
- Note 1
- Revised text added and moved to footnote, stating “In the future, if ICANN is subject to other similar sanctions (e.g., similar in scope, type and effect and with similar methods of relief for entities not specifically sanctioned), the spirit of these recommendations should guide ICANN’s approach.”
- Friendly amendment - Instead of saying "if ICANN is subject to similar sanctions", I believe it would be more appropriate to say "if ICANN's activities are affected by similar sanctions”.
- Agreed with friendly amendment
- Note 2
- The Report has been changed to recommend that the Registry (or Registrar) choose from among the choice of law options on the “menu,” i.e., the choice would not be negotiated with ICANN.
- Agreed
- Note 3
- This is a general note that section describing the work of the Subgroup after the draft was submitted to the plenary for the Abu Dhabi meeting has now been “accepted” into the document.
- Agreed
- Note 4
- In the “Overview of the Work of the Subgroup,” the following has been added:
As a result of these discussions [in Abu Dhabi], the section “Further Discussions of Jurisdiction-Related Concerns” was added the draft Report, suggesting a path forward for these concerns beyond the CCWG-Accountability through a further other multistakeholder process.
- Agreed as amended in meeting per Thiago and Greg suggestions.
- Agreed as amended in meeting per Thiago and Greg suggestions.
- Note 4.1
- This suggestion has evolved somewhat. Thiago earlier suggested that “Comments by other countries in support for the further jurisdiction-related discussions, in particular immunities, should be specifically referenced."
- After further discussion, Thiago’s revised suggestion appears to be:
- Comments by other countries in support for the further jurisdiction-related discussions, in particular immunities, should be specifically referenced.
- it would be fair to also explicitly give similar satisfaction to the contrary voices
- These are not really contrary to Brazil’s dissent, which should be made explicit in the report as part of the subgroup’s response to the comments received.”
No change has been made to the Report based on this Note, as it unclear what the level of support for this plan. The Subgroup needs to determine if this addition should be made and if so, how.
- Concept agreement to some new words which will be suggested by GS.
- Concept agreement to some new words which will be suggested by GS.
- Note 5
- This text is proposed to be added at the end of the recommendations on sanctions:
- When implementing each of the recommendations in this section, their utmost importance to ICANN in carrying out its mission and facilitating global access to DNS should be considered. Taking into account this importance, the implementation phase should start as soon as possible, but in no event later than six months after approval by the ICANN Board.”
- Agreed
- This text is proposed to be added at the end of the recommendations on sanctions:
- Note 6
- This is a general note that the Stress Tests have now been “accepted” into the Report document.
- Agreed.
- Note 7
- A “friendly amendment” was made on last week’s call to Stress Test 1 in “Proposed Accountability Measures,” to clarify that any registrar’s ability to “accept domain registration requests from citizens of any country” is still “subject to limitations and obligations due to applicable law and registry restrictions.”
- Agreed without “and registry restrictions”.
Requests:
- GS will circulated draft final to list by 1800 UTC today and comments need to be provided ASAP as the deadline for submitting the final recommendations is Friday 2 March 2359 UTC.
Documents Presented
- CCWG-Accountability-WS2-Jurisdiction-Final Draft v1.2.6 | Google Doc
- v1-Proposed Changes in Feb 27 Jurisdiction Subgroup Report
Chat Transcript
Brenda Brewer: (2/28/2018 06:57) Good day and welcome to WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #57 on 28 February 2018 @ 13:00 UTC.
Brenda Brewer: (06:58) When not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6). To unmute, *6 This call is recorded.
Brenda Brewer: (06:58) Reminder to all, for captioning and transcription, please state your name before speaking and speak slowly. Thank you!
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:00) Hello all
David McAuley: (07:00) I am phone # 4154
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (07:00) Hello all
Brenda Brewer: (07:00) Thank you, David.
Herb Waye Ombuds: (07:01) Hello everyone
David McAuley: (07:03) yes
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:05) reminder to mute if not speaking
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:07) Im getting a lot of echo... don't know if I'm alone though
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:07) alright ok
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:09) audio is great
David McAuley: (07:12) no objection
Thiago Jardim: (07:12) Instead of saying "if ICANN is subject to similar sanctions", I believe it would be more appropriate to say "if ICANN's activities are affected by similar sanctions.."
Steve DelBianco: (07:12) Good change!
Steve DelBianco: (07:12) agree
David McAuley: (07:12) agree
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:12) yes fine with me as well
Thiago Jardim: (07:13) thank you
Finn Petersen: (07:17) Super!
Thiago Jardim: (07:18) I believe we should slightly reorganise the order in which the new text appears, so that it does not give the false impression that the report, when it was approved at the plenary meeting, already included the addition of “further discussions of jurisdiction-related concerns”. It would then read like this:
Thiago Jardim: (07:19) The Subgroup’s proposed recommendations were submitted to the CCWG-Accountability Plenary. The CCWG-Accountability WS2 plenary meeting on 27 October 2017 included a discussion focused on jurisdiction issues. The draft Report was approved by consensus as defined in the CCWG-Accountability charter, and not by full consensus. The Government of Brazil, which did not support approving the Report, has prepared a dissenting opinion which is supported by several other participants and can be found in Annex [E] of the Report. A transcript of the discussions held is included as Annex [F] to this Report. As a result of these discussions, the section “Further Discussions of Jurisdiction-Related Concerns” was added the draft Report, suggesting a path forward for these concerns beyond the CCWG-Accountability through a further other multistakeholder process.
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:20) yes
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:21) Thiago - hand?
Thiago Jardim: (07:21) old hand.
Thiago Jardim: (07:23) indeed, just reordering, no substatnive changs
Thiago Jardim: (07:23) ok.
David McAuley: (07:28) I support the approach of Thomas as summarized by Greg
Steve DelBianco: (07:29) Right -- I was going to mention the matrix oc comments, where we inidcate how each comment was reflected
Thiago Jardim: (07:30) is this the column in which each comment appears either in red or green?
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:31) In those new reports no colour
Thiago Jardim: (07:31) I see. Green and red would suppose a value judgment.
Thiago Jardim: (07:31) thank you bernard.
Thiago Jardim: (07:32) I oppose that
David McAuley: (07:32) I prefer the 'suggestion' for further work rather than the 'need' for further work
Steve DelBianco: (07:33) Ah, thank you Thiago. We added a different section
Thiago Jardim: (07:34) That's why I suggested a specific reference to France and others should come there in the report
Thiago Jardim: (07:34) somewhat echoing Steve's point
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:34) Time check - 56 minutes left in call
Thiago Jardim: (07:34) Is there objection?
David McAuley: (07:35) I support no change
Steve DelBianco: (07:35) I do not see a need for a change
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (07:36) no objection
Thiago Jardim: (07:36) it could be a useful addition that would smooth consideration of the report by the GAC for example.
Steve DelBianco: (07:36) just to be clear, we do have proposed text to add, do we?
Farzaneh Badii: (07:36) what adddition?? that France supports the recommendation?
Thiago Jardim: (07:36) smoothen*
David McAuley: (07:37) that's it - we would then need to summarize all comments, no?
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:38) summarising all comments is not really a realistic thing to do considering the deadlines. Do other subgroups do that?
Thiago Jardim: (07:39) “The late recognition that “Further Discussions of Jurisdiction-Related Concerns” are needed, in particular on jurisdictional immunities, found echo in several comments received, in particular by Governments, but the subgroup was unable to pursue further these discussions due to time constraints.”
Thiago Jardim: (07:40) Above is suggested text to be added immediately after the reordered sentence.
Thiago Jardim: (07:41) something along these lines, with the appropriate grammatical corrections
Steve DelBianco: (07:42) in this process, Governments are co-equal stakeholders.
Farzaneh Badii: (07:44) but further discussions about jurisdiction could include immunity or not.other stakeholder groups also supported the further discussions about jurisdiction to happen.
Thiago Jardim: (07:45) I did suggest some text for this above. Would there be opposition against it?
Thiago Jardim: (07:47) we could use suggestion instead
Farzaneh Badii: (07:47) I also don't support change. I agree with David. We have recommended further discussions about jurisdiction I think that is sufficient.
Steve DelBianco: (07:48) I agree with David. And I must drop from the call at this time, with apologies.
Thiago Jardim: (07:51) if that makes sense.
Kavouss Arasteh 2: (07:53) That is relatzively ghood suggestion
David McAuley: (07:54) While I do not support a change for Note 4.1, if we do something along these lines as Greg just suggested then it should be on list to allow those not in attendance a chance to weigh in.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:54) thiago hand
Farzaneh Badii: (07:54) I support Greg's suggestion
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (07:55) I would need to read it in order to make my mind, but generally speaking, I support that yes
Kavouss Arasteh 2: (07:56) We have agfreed for that textz
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:57) HIAGO HAND
Farzaneh Badii: (07:57) no issues. reads better now
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:57) Thiago hand
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (07:57) Kavoussx
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:59) no objection
Farzaneh Badii: (08:02) playing violin is always allowed!
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (08:02) haha
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:06) Time check - 24 minutes left in call
Farzaneh Badii: (08:09) Yea. I have the same concerns as Kavouss. but registries come up with their own policies .. so I don't know how to solve that. but can we just delete registry restrictions? it is implied anyway
Kavouss Arasteh 2: (08:10) Agree with Farzi
Thiago Jardim: (08:10) +1
Farzaneh Badii: (08:13) yes thank you
Thiago Jardim: (08:13) Wait
Thiago Jardim: (08:13) Since we still have some time..
Farzaneh Badii: (08:13) oh Thiago you are not gonna let us celebrate an early finalization? :)
Thiago Jardim: (08:14) sorry
Thiago Jardim: (08:14) I was going to put it in the chat, and will eventually before the meeting ends.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:15) Deadline Friday 2 March 2359 UTC
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:16) Kavouss hand
David McAuley: (08:17) +1 @ Kavouss – many thanks Greg!
Farzaneh Badii: (08:18) sincere appreciations Greg! You deserved to have chaired this group while on a beach in Hawaii
Herb Waye Ombuds: (08:18) well said Kavouss
Thiago Jardim: (08:21) Greg: on the outstanding point 4.1, which is outstanding I understand, may I try to lend you a hand in finding that delicate balance?
David McAuley: (08:21) with violins playing
Thiago Jardim: (08:21) Here's suggested text that could perjhaps do it: “The late suggestion added to the report that “Further Discussions of Jurisdiction-Related Concerns” are needed, in particular on jurisdictional immunities, found echo in several comments subsequently received, but these comments did not bring any changes to the report, nor could they be considered in detail, on the understanding that the existing support for “further discussions” to address unresolved concerns, including in other fora, had already been acknowledged.”
David McAuley: (08:23) still needs to go to list, right
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (08:23) looks reasonable
Kavouss Arasteh 2: (08:23) I support tghat
David McAuley: (08:24) agreed, that is a point to consider
Thiago Jardim: (08:24) We could submit this to the list and subject it to a non-objection procedure
Farzaneh Badii: (08:25) I have to leave sorry. thanks all
Thiago Jardim: (08:25) To see whether there is objection.
Kavouss Arasteh 2: (08:25) I have to leave too to anmother meeting
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (08:25) it should still go to the list yes
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:27) last 4 minutes of call
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:28) shifting my audio to my next call
David McAuley: (08:28) i have hard stop at 30 minutes past
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:28) here in Accordance until half hour mark... sorry
Thiago Jardim: (08:29) we would not be implying that.
Thiago Jardim: (08:29) we would be saying the opposite.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (08:29) I feel the latest text from Thiago reflects a series of comments and provides a useful feedback on them
Thiago Jardim: (08:29) Rapporteur, I will deeply regret if this is not just submitted to the list applying the same standard of non-objection.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:30) we are at the end or time
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:31) need to leave
David McAuley: (08:31) I have to drop off – back for the plenary later, good bye all and thanks to all for the long and taxing work on this subteam – with special thanks again to Greg
Thiago Jardim: (08:32) Thank you
Thiago Jardim: (08:32) inoffensive language, I must say.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:32) thanks everyone bye ð got to go, bye for now
Thiago Jardim: (08:33) Thank you. apologies for delaying the end of this.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:33) All we have to conclude this call
Finn Petersen: (08:33) Thx Greg - Bye all!
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:33) bye all
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (08:33) bye all...
Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (08:33) thanks greg and thanks all fo rthe hard work!
