Sub-group Members: Anne Aikman-Scalese, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, David McAuley, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Janet Shih Hajek, Kavouss Arasteh, Niels ten Oever, Robin Gross, Tatiana Tropina.
Observers/Guests: Collin Kurre, Khaled Koubaa, Mark Carvell, Markus Kummer.
ICANN Org: Nathalie Vergnolle, Yvette Guigneaux. (Bonnie & Jamie – CART captioning)
Apologies: Bastiaan Goslings, Matt Shears, Jorge Cancio, Seun Ojedeji.
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
- Word Doc
Recording
Agenda
1. Administrivia - Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
2. Second reading of e-mail to CCWG plenary
3. AOB
Decisions:
- Decision taken to proceed with submiting the revised report for CCWG-Plenary’s consideration.
Action Items:
- NTO to submit the revised report for CCWG-Plenary’s consideration.
Requests:
- Members of the subgroup are seeking clarification on who has rights to file a Minority Statement, per the CCWG charter, and what has been done in the past:
- Has an Observer filed a Minority Statement in CCWG Accountability before?
- Has anyone who wasn't an official Member (appointed from an SOAC) filed a Minority Statement in CCWG before?
- What the CCWG Charter say about who has rights to file a Minority Statement?
Documents
Raw Caption Notes
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
Chat Transcript
Yvette Guigneaux: (8/28/2017 17:54) Hi All and welcome to the Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #32 | 29 Aug 2017 @ 19:00 UTC!
Jamie- CART support: (8/29/2017 11:39) Hello- can you make me a host for CART?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:49) hi Jamie - ok will do
Bonnie-CART: (11:52) Hi, Yvette! Can you please tell me who the Rapporteur will be for this meeting?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:52) Hi Bonnie - good day - rapporteur is Niels ten Oever
Niels ten Oever: (11:52) Hi Bonnie, that will be me :)
Bonnie-CART: (11:52) Thank you so much!
Niels ten Oever: (11:52) Hello all
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:52) hello there Niels
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:54) Mr. Arasteh - are you good to go?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:54) you can see the room and hear ok?
Khaled KOUBAA: (11:57) Hi everyone
Tatiana Tropina: (11:59) Hi all
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:00) hi all - please remember to mute when not speaking
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:01) will do
Greg Shatan: (12:01) hello all.
Greg Shatan: (12:02) Is it just me, or is the agenda sideways?
Tatiana Tropina: (12:02) Mine is ok :)
Greg Shatan: (12:02) iPad view....
Greg Shatan: (12:03) I'm in the Matrix. Maybe that's the issue.
Tatiana Tropina: (12:03) Matrix has us, Greg.
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:04) scrolling available if need be
Robin Gross: (12:06) Has an Observer filed a Minority Statement in CCWG Accountability before?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:08) I think that we cannot state that the view of Brazil is a "Minority View". This is because of the Observer status. I believe that the point at which Brazil should comment is at the plenary level.
Robin Gross: (12:08) Rather, has anyone who wasn't an official Member (appointed from an SOAC) filed a Minority Statement in CCWG before?
Nathalie Vergnolle: (12:09) @Robin: I don't have an answer, but I can bring it back to Bernie's attention.
Robin Gross: (12:09) Thanks, Nathalie.
Bonnie-CART: (12:10) Audio is cutting out for me
Robin Gross: (12:11) What the CCWG Charter say about who has rights to file a Minority Statement? We should look at the charter on this point.
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:12) Bonnie - you ok? or is audio still cutting out for you?
Greg Shatan: (12:12) Two wrongs don't make a right. Assuming there was a wrong.
Bonnie-CART: (12:13) It's better, Greg was cutting out.
David McAuley: (12:13) Beyond the process point, I respect the views of the three governments, think we have considered reference to Ruggie at lenghth and think there is no consensus in this group for making such a reference.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:13) agree David
David McAuley: (12:13) BTW - I have no access to audio
Niels ten Oever: (12:14) The minority statement was submitted by Jorge
Niels ten Oever: (12:14) and then supported by Kavouss and Thiago
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:15) Sorry - I thought Brazil had a separate Minority Statement.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:15) agree Niels
Greg Shatan: (12:16) It should be noted that they are an Observer.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:17) Agree with Greg. It should be noted in the Minority Statement taht Brazil is an Observer.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:18) for the record here I am unconvinced that there hS neen any oversights in proper porcedures in this WT
Robin Gross: (12:18) Often we listen to the recording and state any disagreement to the list in the following days. many are tracking these discussions without being on the call.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:18) exactly Robin
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:19) correct Greg
Robin Gross: (12:20) And here I thought Non-Commercials Users were in the minority. ;-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:20) well said Greg..not just you
Greg Shatan: (12:21) Everyone's in the minority sometimes. The point is what one does at that time.
Greg Shatan: (12:22) The drafting group sent its proposal to the full Subgroup, where it received the appropriate 2 readings. I don't see the process issue.
Greg Shatan: (12:23) Where are these numbers coming from?
Greg Shatan: (12:23) It's the job of the Rapporteur to declare consensus levels.
Robin Gross: (12:23) I agree, Greg.
Tatiana Tropina: (12:24) Agree too
Robin Gross: (12:24) Good point, Anne.
Greg Shatan: (12:24) Is this a formal objection?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:25) This is polling - not a vote.
Robin Gross: (12:25) An argument based on numbers should allow actual numbers.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:26) correct Niels
Tatiana Tropina: (12:31) yes, I believe the text reflects the previous consensus
Tatiana Tropina: (12:31) not the balance in terms of public comments
Tatiana Tropina: (12:31) Ruggie principles are mentioned in the previous text
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:32) yup
Niels ten Oever: (12:32) We haven't used the term 'consensus'
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:32) that might work Anne
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:32) at this levelmof work
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:33) balance was the key word In this
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:33) Okay, thank you Niels and Cheryl
Niels ten Oever: (12:34) The consensus was part of the work before the public comments
Niels ten Oever: (12:35) in workstream 2
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:36) we have considered, quite properly IMO in this WT
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:37) the PCs
Niels ten Oever: (12:37) "The group feels the current proposed wording is a minimum common denominator text between the different opinions held in the ICANN community.”
David McAuley: (12:37) I agree with what Niels just said.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:38) correct Greg
Robin Gross: (12:39) +1
Tatiana Tropina: (12:39) +1000
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:39) yes +++++
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (12:40) Teh fundamental issue here is that we cannot, in our work, change the ICANN ByLaw or the definition of "applicable law." Tht is why the public comments were considered fully but cannot be fully accommodated as requested by the government participants. I think there is frustration that the results of Workstream 1 work are what they are.
Greg Shatan: (12:41) Niels said he was closing the queue after you, Kavouss.
David McAuley: (12:41) +1 @ Greg, I believe the three government statemets have been taken into account. I see them as principled statements aboiut Ruggie but I also see a risk with Ruggie that could easily pull ICANN away from its limited mission.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:41) indeed Anne
Greg Shatan: (12:41) There was a consensus not to take them into account.
Greg Shatan: (12:42) This has nothing to do with WS1....
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:42) again In agree @David
Greg Shatan: (12:42) But the group did decide not to change the report, after taking the Comments into account.
Tatiana Tropina: (12:43) Yes. The comments were taken into account. The groupd decided to change the fottnote but not the text.
Greg Shatan: (12:43) I disagree with my esteemed colleague's restatement of the process and its outcome.
Tatiana Tropina: (12:44) I disagree too but it sems there is no way to really reach agreement on this
David McAuley: (12:44) None here Niels
Greg Shatan: (12:44) We have to make decisions somehow. What is your decision-making method, Kavouss?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:44) Kavouss pleasecrespectvthe Chair of the meeting
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:45) he can use whatevervtools he wishes
Greg Shatan: (12:45) I have no problem with the text as currently stated.
Greg Shatan: (12:45) I don
David McAuley: (12:45) Nor do I
Tatiana Tropina: (12:45) I have no problem with the text.
Greg Shatan: (12:45) I don't see a vote.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:45) I have NO problem with the text
Greg Shatan: (12:46) We are talking about the text of the COVER EMAIL now....
Robin Gross: (12:46) I dont remember anyone being against voting when GAC stacked the deck on the vote to get into the empowered community.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:46) correct Greg the cover letter on screen
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:48) close the work is indeed a possibility
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:48) not a preffered one of course
Greg Shatan: (12:49) I agree with you Niels. And with a quorum, the decision is properly taken.
Greg Shatan: (12:49) Thank you for admitting that.
Robin Gross: (12:49) It is a proper decision.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:49) it is called establishment of the meetings views Kavouss
Greg Shatan: (12:50) What is your decision making method, Kavouss? Decisions must be made or this is nothing but a talk shop.
Greg Shatan: (12:51) The silent ones have not objected to the conclusion, so I think it is proper to consider them as the "silent majority."
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:51) that IS voting Kavouss which you object to
Greg Shatan: (12:51) Abstention has to be a decided and stated position.
Greg Shatan: (12:52) Good point Cheryl, that is voting. The logic of this fails me.
Greg Shatan: (12:52) Silence is not abstention.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:52) THANK YOU emphasis intended Niels
Tatiana Tropina: (12:52) Thanks Niels and all - see you tomorrow at the plenary
David McAuley: (12:52) Thanks Niels, thanks all, good bye
Robin Gross: (12:52) Niels, please include my approval. I stepped out and missed the time to tick green.
Greg Shatan: (12:52) Thank you Niels!! Count me as a green tick too.....
Greg Shatan: (12:53) Bye all.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:53) bye
Bonnie-CART: (12:53) Thank you!
