Sub-group Members: Cheryl Langdon-Orr, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Herb Waye, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Milton Mueller, Philip Corwin, Robin Gross, Steve DelBianco, Tatiana Tropina, Thiago Jardim
Observers/Guests: Thomas Rickert
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Nathalie Vergnolle, Samantha Eisner, Yvette Guigneaux
Apologies: Raphael Beauregard-LaCroix, Wale Bakare
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to firstname.lastname@example.org **
- Word Doc
2. Review of Agenda (2 minutes)
3. Administration (1 minute)
3.1. Changes to SOIs
3.2. Identify Audio Only and Phone Number Participants
4. Issues and Proposed Issues (45 minutes)
4.1. Complete Discussion of “OFAC Recommendation” (Second Reading)
4.2. Continued Discussion of Next Set of Proposed Issues: “Provisions relating to choice of law in certain ICANN Agreements”:
4.2.1. Registry Agreements do not have a provision stating the governing law of the agreement
4.2.2. Registrar Agreements do not have a provision stating the governing law of the agreement
4.2.3. Arbitration of Registry Agreement: Lack of choice in arbitral body and jurisdiction of arbitration
4.2.4. Lack of governing law provisions could lead to courts more likely choosing their own law as governing law
4.2.5. Provisions regarding the venue for hearing disputes in registry agreements are limited to one specific venue, with flexibility allowed only in contracts with Governments and other special cases
4.3. Review of Revised Proposed Issues List
5. Review of Schedule and Timeline (5 Minutes)
6. AOB (5 Minutes)
7. Adjourn (next meeting 27 September 1900UTC)
Raw Captioning Notes
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
- The sub-group will try to provide a draft of the OFAC recommendation for consideration by the plenary at its 27 September call.
- GS to produce iterative drafts of the OFAC recommendation until 20 September deadline for submission of documents for the 27 September plenary.
Yvette Guigneaux: (9/17/2017 23:24) Hi All and Welcome to the Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #47 | Monday, 18 Sept 17 @ 19:00 UTC!
Yvette Guigneaux: (23:25) When not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6). To unmute, *6. This call is recorded.
Yvette Guigneaux: (23:25) Reminder to all, for captioning and transcription, please state your name before speaking and speak slowly.
Jamie-Captioning support: (9/18/2017 11:32) Hello- can you make me a host?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:48) hi Kavouss - we're working on dialing out to you now
KAVOUSS Arasteh: (11:50) Greg, Under 4.1,I have sent you some edits .It is not in Wdoc.
KAVOUSS Arasteh: (11:51) pls kindly include that edits
captioner: (11:53) Can I have passcode, please?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:54) 2731447485#
captioner: (11:54) Thanks!
captioner: (11:55) That's the captioner's number
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:55) ok thank you
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:55) is this Faith?
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:56) reminder to all - if you're not speaking please mute
Yvette Guigneaux: (11:56) thank you
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (11:57) Hello all
Thomas Rickert: (11:59) Hi all!
David McAuley: (11:59) I am #4154
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:00) hi David - thank you
Herb Waye Ombuds: (12:00) Greetings everyone
Tatiana Tropina: (12:00) Hi all!
Wale Bakare: (12:01) Greetings to you all. Good morning/afternoon/evening
Robin Gross: (12:01) Greetings from foggy San Francisco!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:01) Hi all!
Robin Gross: (12:03) feedback
David McAuley: (12:03) lots of interference
KAVOUSS Arasteh: (12:03) Distortion
Milton Mueller: (12:04) too soft
David McAuley: (12:04) sound seems ok
Milton Mueller: (12:04) too loud!
Robin Gross: (12:04) low
David McAuley: (12:04) yeah, a little soft
Milton Mueller: (12:04) now you're gone entirely
David McAuley: (12:04) goldilocks
Milton Mueller: (12:04) goldilocks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:05) I had to use my headset goldilocks
KAVOUSS Arasteh: (12:05) Milton?s voice is heard very much distorted
Milton Mueller: (12:05) no my mic is off
Milton Mueller: (12:06) you are hearing voices, Kavouss ;-)
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:06) scrolling available if need be
Milton Mueller: (12:09) OK to me to use US sanctions
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:09) yup
Robin Gross: (12:10) agree
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:11) we do hear
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:12) my apologies Kavouss
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:12) i let you all do the scrolling and i'll keep the display still
Milton Mueller: (12:12) if the version here is the same as the one sent out at 1:42 pm, Kavouss can download this document and look at it more easily
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:19) if you're on cell - please mute your computer speakers - otherwise we have echo
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:19) thanks everyone
KAVOUSS Arasteh: (12:19) I hear very badly the intervention of Milton
Wale Bakare: (12:19) Hi everyone, I am stepping out now due to health condition
Wale Bakare: (12:19) Cheers, bye
Yvette Guigneaux: (12:19) feel better Wale
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:19) get well soon, Wale!
Milton Mueller: (12:20) we can suggest offline
Milton Mueller: (12:21) yes on the list
Thiago Jardim: (12:24) I apologise for not attending a couple of our previous calls nor having had the time to go through the transcripts. Could the rapporteur briefly develop on the "drafting history" of footnote 5?
Thiago Jardim: (12:25) Ok. We reserve the right to make comments and suggestions about it.
Milton Mueller: (12:25) I had my hand up
David McAuley: (12:26) I think that is about viability of applicant, isn't it
Robin Gross: (12:29) that sounds dangerously "political" for ICANN to do
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:29) that is my understanding as well David
Milton Mueller: (12:30) I don't support that
Thiago Jardim: (12:30) + 1 to Milton's point
Milton Mueller: (12:30) no, i don't want them to be able to decide not to. full stop
Thiago Jardim: (12:30) We're moving away from the 'jurisdictional' problem
Milton Mueller: (12:30) exactly
Robin Gross: (12:30) its a pandora's box
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:31) agree with Milton to a large extent
Farzaneh Badii: (12:31) OFAC sets the criteria not ICANN
Milton Mueller: (12:31) does icann apply for OFAC license before or after it determines they are viable applicants?
Farzaneh Badii: (12:31) yes the ones listed on SDN list in OFAC. those are not eligible
Thiago Jardim: (12:32) ICANN should not be in the business of "validating" or not unilateral sanctions that are themselves are problem for ICANN's accountability towards all stakeholders
Milton Mueller: (12:32) agree with David that it's a waste of time for ICANN to ask for license for registrars that are ineligible
Milton Mueller: (12:32) YES - Greg said it, we have already elinminated unqualified applicants
David McAuley: (12:33) if that the case then ok
Robin Gross: (12:33) I agree with Milton
Tatiana Tropina: (12:34) Agree with Milton too
Farzaneh Badii: (12:34) I agree with Milton
Farzaneh Badii: (12:35) ICANN should not decide OFAC can deny granting a license!
Milton Mueller: (12:35) yeah, so Phil you are indeed asking ICANN to develop its own sanctions regime
Thiago Jardim: (12:35) In that case, Phil, OFAC will deny an ICANN request for a license...
Milton Mueller: (12:35) if they are terrorists they will be on SDN
Thiago Jardim: (12:35) but it shouldn't be upon ICANN to develop these policies.
Thomas Rickert: (12:35) Where the applicant fulfills all eligibility requirements, ICANN should not have any discretion not to apply. Just my 5 cent.
Farzaneh Badii: (12:35) embarassment is an arbitrary criterion ...
Thomas Rickert: (12:36) This makes it much easier for ICANN and ICANN would be less vulnerable
Milton Mueller: (12:36) I think the anti-wiggle faction has consensus and the "wigglers" are a minority of one
Farzaneh Badii: (12:37) no
Farzaneh Badii: (12:37) that is not how it works. those on the list you cannot seek a license for ...
Milton Mueller: (12:37) rights, Greg
Farzaneh Badii: (12:37) ICANN cannot apply for license for the SDN ...
Milton Mueller: (12:40) anti-wigglers unite!
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:41) time check - 20 minutes left in call
Philip Corwin: (12:42) Well, if SDNs are outside the scope of parties that ICANN would seek a license for then my concerns are largely satisfied. That was not clear in the document before us.
David McAuley: (12:43) colorful page 5
Farzaneh Badii: (12:43) oh we had an impact :)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:44) :-)
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:45) Staff is good for another 30 minutes
Thiago Jardim: (12:46) +1 down with the rumination
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:47) well I am now only in 1 meeting so ok for more time
Milton Mueller: (12:47) I want to go on !!!
Farzaneh Badii: (12:49) yeah a brief recommendation would do ...
Farzaneh Badii: (12:49) narrow and clean is nice
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:50) narrower is my preferences
Robin Gross: (12:50) +1
Farzaneh Badii: (12:51) what complexity?
David McAuley: (12:51) I thought Oct 11 was cut off date for our report, is that wrong
Farzaneh Badii: (12:51) we have been discussing this recommendation so many times ...
Milton Mueller: (12:51) we are trying to simplify this subrecommendation
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:52) I think there is a lot of common ground on this rec
Milton Mueller: (12:52) yes
Milton Mueller: (12:52) Wed is 20 September
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:52) yes
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:53) documents are due 7 days prior to a plenary
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:53) next plenary is 27 September 1300UTC
David McAuley: (12:54) narrower and cleaner sounds right
Milton Mueller: (12:55) that scenario sounds fantastic Greg
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (12:55) Documents for the Sept 27 call are due Sept 20 23:59 UTC
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:55) great plan Greg
Milton Mueller: (12:56) clarification by ICANN
Milton Mueller: (12:57) we don't need a survey
David McAuley: (12:58) Our questionnaire was like a survey of sorts
Milton Mueller: (12:58) what language?
Thiago Jardim: (12:58) what language?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:59) what language?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (12:59) we need to look at this with a bit more of time
Milton Mueller: (12:59) YES there is opposition
Herb Waye Ombuds: (13:00) I have to leave. have a good day all... Herb
David McAuley: (13:00) Farzi makes a good point, a clarification is not dependent on a survey, at worst it could be redundant
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (13:01) Time check - top of the hour
Milton Mueller: (13:01) has Kavouss been recognized?
Robin Gross: (13:01) I oppose also
Tatiana Tropina: (13:01) Me too
David McAuley: (13:01) I don't see then need though Kavouss
David McAuley: (13:01) the need, not then need
Thomas Rickert: (13:01) I do not see the need, too.
Milton Mueller: (13:02) he is out of order
Thiago Jardim: (13:03) Is it necessary to say that "something has not occurred?"
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (13:04) isn't "inappropriate" too vague?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (13:05) what are the parameters of that concept? and how is that decision taken?
Thiago Jardim: (13:07) I'm against that we recommend that ICANN undertake studies
Milton Mueller: (13:07) a general license is the most fundamental and constructive outcome we can seek for
Thiago Jardim: (13:07) there's enough common ground to recommend that ICANN should seek general licenses for DNS-related transactions.
Thiago Jardim: (13:08) Let us recommend this and let ICANN consider how and whether to implement it - whether or not by undertaking studies, etc.
Milton Mueller: (13:09) yes, we recommend, ICANN implements
Thiago Jardim: (13:10) Farzi, how about : "ICANN should report back on how it is implementing the subgroup recommendations"
Thiago Jardim: (13:12) It must apply.
Thiago Jardim: (13:12) Whether it will be granted is another mather
Thiago Jardim: (13:12) matter
Milton Mueller: (13:12) right
Robin Gross: (13:12) ICANN should be required to apply.
Farzaneh Badii: (13:12) we should require ICANN to apply.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (13:13) makes sense - in the end it is a recommendation - it won't be an obligation anyway, right?
Milton Mueller: (13:14) it should be an obligation to try
Greg Shatan: (13:14) No, a recommendation becomes an obligation once it is approved by the Board.
Finn Petersen,: (13:14) Should be require to apply
Philip Corwin: (13:14) If we have not analyzed the costs, benefits, and other factrs relating to requests for general licenses we should not be requiring ICANN to apply for one or more.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (13:15) we recommend - if the Board accepts it becomes an obligation b/c of their acceptance
Philip Corwin: (13:16) I have no problem with recommending that they do so, and that they should report back to community on whether they have identified any serious downsides to doing so.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (13:17) I am atad concerned about requiring ICANN to do rather than explore
Robin Gross: (13:19) Agree with Phil's proposal
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (13:19) Phil I like that approach
Milton Mueller: (13:19) we could have the community review and make a decision
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (13:19) exactly Milton
Robin Gross: (13:20) board could come back with proposal to address their concerns
Thiago Jardim: (13:21) There is perhaps disagreement as to what we/icann should do next after being recommended to seek a general license. So let's us recommend that, i.e. that icann seek a general license, and then we can draft some language afterwards to tackle the other concerns.
Thiago Jardim: (13:22) I'm not confortable with "unless there is downsides.."., because it should be not left for ICANN to decide that and ditch away a recommendation upon their finding
Milton Mueller: (13:23) right, they would return to the community with a serious risk, not just a "downside"
Thiago Jardim: (13:23) for the community to consider what to recommend / how to react / etc.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (13:25) we have to wrap up for staff including captioners
Milton Mueller: (13:26) looking forward to your next draft, Grec
David McAuley: (13:27) OK, thanks Greg, staff, and all, good bye
Farzaneh Badii: (13:27) thank you
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: (13:27) thanks Greg, thanks everyone, bye for now...
Philip Corwin: (13:27) Bye all
Robin Gross: (13:27) Thanks, Grec, and all. Bye!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (13:27) thanks Greg, and all - bye all!
Tatiana Tropina: (13:27) Thank you all - bye
Erich Schweighofer: (13:27) Bye