Sub-group Members: Andrew Harris, Avri Doria, Bartlett Morgan, Cheryl Landon-Orr, Christopher Wilkinson, David McAuley, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Herb Waye, Jeff Neuman, Kavouss Arasteh, John Laprise, Matthew Shears, Milton Mueller, Philip Corwin, Par Brumark, Steve DelBianco, Tijani Ben Jemaa, Wale Bakare (19)
Observers/Guests: Mark Carvell
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Meghan Healy, Nigel Hickson, Samantha Eisner
Apologies: Finn Petersen, Jorge Cancio
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to firstname.lastname@example.org **
2. Review of Agenda (1 minute)
3. Administration (1 minute)
3.1. Changes to SOIs
3.2. Identify Audio Only and Phone Number Participants
4. Presentation by ICANN Legal on OFAC (45 minutes)
5. Discussion with ICANN Legal on lack of “Choice of Law” provisions in registrar and registry agreements (10 minutes)
6. AOB (2 Minutes)
7. Adjourn (next meeting 9 August 1900UTC)
Raw Captioning Notes
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
Kavouss Arasteh: (8/1/2017 07:35) Dear Greg,Dear All, ther time of this meeting has not yet been agreed
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:35) There was some defficiencies to organize the meeting
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:36) I have serious difficulties not being able to freely express my legitimate opinion
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:37) Today, in the NATIONAL and PUBLIC HOLIDAY in the country that I am residing.
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:38) In the past we did our best to respect the National Days of several countries so we did in the past respecting 4TH OF jULY awlways WITHOUT EXCEPTION
Brenda Brewer: (07:39) Good day all and welcome to WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #40 on 1 August 2017 @ 13:00 UTC!
Brenda Brewer: (07:40) If you are not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6). This call is recorded.
Brenda Brewer: (07:40) Reminder to all, please speak slowly and state your name before speaking for the Captioner. Thank you!
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (07:57) nice music!
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:58) What Music,
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:59) Was it Alpine Swiss Music
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:00) I think it was hip hop Kavouss! :) there could be some version of alpine swiss hip hop
Milton Mueller: (08:00) a combination of yodeling and rap?
Nigel Hickson: (08:01) good morning; good weather for Swiss Holiday.
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:01) Greg, Pls kindly note that before strating we have to approve agenda
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (08:01) Hi all!
Herb Waye Ombuds: (08:03) Hello all
Jeff Neuman: (08:03) I think we need to use our time wisely on this call and get down to substance please
Milton Mueller: (08:03) are you trying to prevent us from talking about OFAC, Kavouss?
Milton Mueller: (08:04) OFAC is on the agenda
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:04) We are here to talk about OFAC! sigh. if only one day we could go straight to the point
Brenda Brewer: (08:05) Kavouss, please speak slowly for the captioner.
Wale Bakare: (08:05) Hi all, good morning/afternoon
Milton Mueller: (08:06) Greg you were correct his time is up
Philip Corwin: (08:06) I would like to hear the staff presentation regarding OFAC
avri doria: (08:06) it is not a waste of my time.
Milton Mueller: (08:06) YOU are wasting our time, Kavouss
avri doria: (08:06) i would like to hear the presentation.
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:06) we want to hear this presentation!
Philip Corwin: (08:06) This filibuster is wasting time
Milton Mueller: (08:07) No
avri doria: (08:07) please!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:08) let's proceed
Milton Mueller: (08:08) Please cut him off he is not recognized
Jeff Neuman: (08:08) I would like to hear what Sam has to present with Kavouss objection noted
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:08) mute lines other than Sam
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:08) 8 minutes of our life gone
avri doria: (08:09) lets listen to the presentation, please.
Philip Corwin: (08:09) Am I the only one who discerns some irony that the subgroup member who has been most insistent that we discuss OFAC is now preventing us from discussing OFAC?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:09) hi Sam
Milton Mueller: (08:09) we are all aware of that irony Philip
Jeff Neuman: (08:11) Can we mute ALL lines other than Sam for now. I hear breathing
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:11) These are clearly and comprehensively explained in the background documents
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:11) For the sake of efficiencies and brevity we do not need this general presentation .
Jeff Neuman: (08:11) I think Steve DelBianco's phone is not muted
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:12) Please shorten the presenrtation
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:13) We do not need tutorial presentation by SAM nor we need that she defend OPFAC
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:13) gREG,
Greg Shatan: (08:13) Can 15712998624 please identify themselves?
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:13) OFAC does not only to SDN list Sam. it applies to ordinary people as well
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:13) PLS ADVISE HER TO SHORTZEN THE PRESENTATION AS ALL SHE SAID ARE ALREADY WELL DOCUMENTED
Jeff Neuman: (08:14) @Greg - I think that is Steve
Greg Shatan: (08:14) Can "anonymous" please identify themselves?
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:14) Thanks Sam
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:14) Greg, pls kindly collaborate and be fair . These briefing is not necessary
Jeff Neuman: (08:14) "from that area" or "living in that area"?
Greg Shatan: (08:15) Kavouss, your objections are noted.
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:15) Greg
Philip Corwin: (08:15) I am finding this oral briefing useful
matthew shears: (08:15) I for one appreciate the presentation
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:15) pls kindly listen,
Greg Shatan: (08:15) Kavouss, Sam has so far taken less time than you did.
Milton Mueller: (08:16) national origin not residence?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:16) We give the questions to her and she reply to that in A logical manner and in written form
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:16) well passport holders too, it applies to me. ICANN has to get OFAC license for me when providing travel support :) so I have heard
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:17) Origin or residence of a person is outside the judgement of any of CCWWG outside
Greg Shatan: (08:18) Kavouss, you are correct. That is a matter of applicable law.
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:18) Pls do not interfer with personal affairs of the peopl
Bartlett Morgan: (08:18) Hello everyone
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:18) personal affairs?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:18) All SAM says are already available on the websites
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:18) no it is not Kavouss.
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:19) She is explaining ICANN now and registry registrar agreements and application of OFAC to them
Brenda Brewer: (08:19) As Greg noted above, please identify your name if logged in as "anonymous" or phone number ending with 8624. Thank you!
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:20) Iam not convinced with the replies given to my questions
Milton Mueller: (08:20) US Congress would have to create this general license or Treasury?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:20) The replies are frustrating and disappointing
Jeff Neuman: (08:22) Are licenses by the individual or can you get a "group" license?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:22) These recently replies are outside the issue
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:22) Greg, pls kindly advise her to come to the points abnd not provide her personal views
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:23) yes question
Milton Mueller: (08:24) thanks for the answer
Philip Corwin: (08:24) Has USTreasuey ever denied a specific license requested by ICANN? If so, on what grounds?
Philip Corwin: (08:25) Treasury
Philip Corwin: (08:28) Thx. If you could confirm the absence of denials that would be useful data.
Milton Mueller: (08:30) I don't understand how a root zone change would require an OFAC license?
Jeff Neuman: (08:30) thanks....and I assume those cases are exempted from the SLAs...which I believe would make sense.
Jeff Neuman: (08:30) Thanks!
Milton Mueller: (08:32) so it's only for certain countries like Iran or Sudan?
Jeff Neuman: (08:32) correct...or if an entity was on the SDN list
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:32) I think 6 countries
Milton Mueller: (08:32) got it
Milton Mueller: (08:32) thans
Wale Bakare: (08:32) Can we, for now know the countries? Or just only Iran, Sudan?
Jeff Neuman: (08:33) Currently, sanctioned countries include the Balkans, Belarus, Burma, Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Iraq, Liberia, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, and Zimbabwe.
Milton Mueller: (08:33) 6 countries, Wale.
Milton Mueller: (08:34) oh, more than 6
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:34) time check - 27 minutes left in call
Wale Bakare: (08:34) Thanks, Milton and Jeff
Jeff Neuman: (08:34) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.treasury.gov_resource-2Dcenter_sanctions_Programs_Pages_Programs.aspx&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=ph851Jh6RyHQWxiJ6uRIFVwVWEtuMtU36_1HuXf1u2s&s=0sVxkTqGj3MAS2K8eLngqxvrP7-89EMjzOQNGDi29mo&e=
Jeff Neuman: (08:35) Venezuela was just sanctioned yesterday, but I think that is limited to a person
Jeff Neuman: (08:35) or people
Milton Mueller: (08:35) yes, it's individuals not the country
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:36) Thank you
Jeff Neuman: (08:36) It seems like Burma and Ivory Coast sanctions ended last year
Christopher Wilkinson (CW): (08:36) Sorry, that has to be rephrashed. It sounds just like a copout by ICANN.
Wale Bakare: (08:36) How would the registrars, registries of the sanctioned countries and/or individual affected now with ICANN activities?
Philip Corwin: (08:37) What I am hearing is that ICANN does not provide legal advice to contracted parties or act as a law enforcement body.
Greg Shatan: (08:37) I note that the "copy and pasted" registrant agreements also have the following language, though neither are in India: " All dates and times relevant to this Agreement or its performance shall be computed based on the date and time observed in Mumbai, India (IST) i.e. GMT+5:30"
Milton Mueller: (08:38) that is weird
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:40) Sam , Greg, The areas that ICANN has no answer rthen sub Group should answer g
Steve DelBianco 2: (08:40) contract parties may do business that does not involve ICANN contracts in any way, and these activities may be restricted by various sanctions in multiple countries
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:41) yes Steve. but can ICANN clarify that because of its contract with registrars they don't have to follow OFAC?
Wale Bakare: (08:41) I think, the idiscussion around immunity, raised in previous meetings may not just fade away
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:41) May answers given stemmed from the applicability of US Law then we have to find a way to resolve thaose area
John Laprise: (08:41) Kavous: ICANN can't. The particulars of each case vary too widely.
Christopher Wilkinson (CW): (08:42) Well, I have some doubts about the omnisceince of the business operators. Could ICANN survey all ccTLDs as to whether or not the law appliss to them and in which way?
John Laprise: (08:43) Christopher: I'm not sure operators would be willing to disclose particulars of business operations.
Steve DelBianco 2: (08:44) Sam, can you say "Contract parties are not obligated to follow OFAC solely on the basis of their havinga contract with ICANN. " ?
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:44) oh yes that was my question Steve
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:44) thanks for putting it accurately. I will lower my hand
Steve DelBianco 2: (08:45) Thanks, Sam. I think that statement, provided in writing from your office, could clear up some problems
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:45) Sam, several questions tha I raised were neither replied properly and completely or they were not answered at all or the answers given were irrelevant
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:46) yes I think it does Steve. I agree
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:46) Sam, Greg, I nned writrten convincing answers to my questions in a logical, legally valid and in written form
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:46) this is all helping me understand more thanks Sam
Christopher Wilkinson (CW): (08:47) "John Laprise: This is not about their business operations. It is a question of the appliccability of OFAC to their domestic situation. CW
Greg Shatan: (08:47) Kavouss, it was hard to discern the questions in your intervention. Staff will go through the transcript and try to identify the questions.
Wale Bakare: (08:49) Ea
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:49) I think it should be a requirment for ICANN to seek an OFAC license
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:49) The questions that I sent to you plus those raised or being raiswed during the call as well as those in the chat
Wale Bakare: (08:50) Exactly, ICANN should shoulder the responsibility
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:51) time check - 9 minutes left in call
Bartlett Morgan: (08:52) having a hard time following kavous
Milton Mueller: (08:52) he asks is DNS an asset or not?
Milton Mueller: (08:53) but it takes 5 minutes
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:53) hmm we could write a 200 page on that
Bartlett Morgan: (08:53) @Milton thanks
Wale Bakare: (08:54) @Farzaneh, "a 200-page" on what, if i may ask?
avri doria: (08:54) Is it ICANN's question to ask?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:54) Sam , fair enough . tHEN if ICANN CAN NOT TAKE ACTIONS ON THIS WHO COULD OR MUST ADDRESS THAT? nO DOUBT , ccwg AND ITS jURISDICTION SUB GROUP
John Laprise: (08:55) ICANN can't assume that responisibility: they don't have the standing. The US Govt and the operator are the ones.
Milton Mueller: (08:55) There are two others in the queue
avri doria: (08:56) John, it can't for the Rr & Ry, but it can for the functions it provides.
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:57) sAM ,OFAC was not designed to cover DNS
Philip Corwin: (08:57) As this is a subgroup of the Accountability CCWG, isn't the most important question whether the existence of OFAC frustrates any aspect of ICANN accountabilty? I'm not seeing any reason to believe that it does.
Wale Bakare: (08:57) @John, who are the maintainers of the DNS root server?
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:58) thanks
Jeff Neuman 2: (08:58) The only thing I think that really relates is to codify this existing practice
Wale Bakare: (08:58) *servers*
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:59) we should probably change this language in registrar accreditation agreement? "However, Applicant acknowledges that ICANN is under no obligations to seek such licenses and, in any given case, OFAC could decide not to issue a requested license"
John Laprise: (08:59) Avri: only to the extent that it has knowledge and standing, right?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:59) Sam, We are hearing contradictory statements, on the one hand we have heard that ICANN has no obligation to require Registries and Registrar to prevent providing DNS to the requesters and on the other hand you said OFAC applies to all cases in regard with the countries subject to OFAC.
Jeff Neuman 2: (08:59) In other words, I am not a fan of the language that says that ICANN is not under an obligation to even try and seek a license. I know legally that protects them, but I do think that ICANN should have an obligation to seek the license
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:59) I have another question from Sam about the lenght it takes to receive a licence for new gtld applicants
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (08:59) but I can ask it on the mailing list?
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:59) wHICH IS RIGHT AND WHICH IS WRONG, Pls answer that issue ion reply you willé provide
Jeff Neuman 2: (09:00) obviously it cannot control what Treasury does
Brenda Brewer: (09:00) This presentation is posted on the Jurisdiction Meeting wiki page here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_QAIhB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=ph851Jh6RyHQWxiJ6uRIFVwVWEtuMtU36_1HuXf1u2s&s=7NaC88ZywMM0h0AtPLA0qEJQUen_9AqwbKO7waPytRk&e=
Jeff Neuman 2: (09:00) This has been great!
avri doria: (09:00) yes, thank you Sam.
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (09:01) Yes very good, thanks a lot.
Nigel Hickson: (09:01) thanks so much
Philip Corwin: (09:01) Thanks Sam!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:01) very helpful indeed... Thanks Sam
Bartlett Morgan: (09:01) appreciate the input Sam
Kavouss Arasteh: (09:01) Iam puzzled and confused by the replies and do not understand why the whole group should be sub ordinated to ICANN staff thoughts
Jeff Neuman 2: (09:01) We should ask Sam to see if there is anything she would like us to address on this issue
Milton Mueller: (09:02) Philip: if basic decisions about who can and cannot reeive DNS service are made by the USG and not the community, we have an accountability problem
Jeff Neuman 2: (09:02) @Milton - That's a little too broad
Milton Mueller: (09:03) Nope
Jeff Neuman 2: (09:03) It's not receiving DNS Services....its receiving services from ICANN
Wale Bakare: (09:03) @Milton, thanks for that.
Kavouss Arasteh: (09:03) Greg, Pls kindly note that we need written answers to the questions raisedeither before the meeting or during ther meeting
John Laprise: (09:03) Milton, at that level there will always be an accountablity issue
Farzaneh Badii (Badiei): (09:03) thanks a lot . Thanks Greg. Bye for now
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (09:03) Thx! Several interesting points. Have a Good Day/Night all!
Kavouss Arasteh: (09:03) SAM ,PLS CONFIRM MY REQUEST
Milton Mueller: (09:03) OFAC can stop innocent people from receiving contracted pary service. Not all that broad
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:03) bye all
Milton Mueller: (09:03) very focused
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:03) bye ð