Attendees: Andreea Brambilla, Andrew Harris, Bartlett Morgan, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christopher Wilkinson, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, John Laprise, Milton Mueller,  Phil Marano, Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix, Steve DelBianco, Thiago Jardim, Thomas Rickert, Tom Dale, Wale Bakare.

Sub-group Members:   


Staff:  Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Nathalie Vergnolle, Yvette Guigneaux. Tina-captioner,

Apologies:  Herb Waye

 ** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to **




1.     Welcome

2.     Review of Agenda (2 minutes)

3.     Administration (1 minute)

3.1.   Changes to SOIs

3.2.   Identify Audio Only and Phone Number Participants

4.     Review of decisions and action items from last call (2 minutes)

4.1.   Decisions:

4.1.1.      Thomas Rickert, speaking for the CCWG Co-Chairs, reminded the Subgroup of the method used in WS1 of narrowing alternatives at difficult junctions by focusing on the option that had the most traction.  Applying this method, the Co-Chairs concluded that the Jurisdiction Subgroup will take “California jurisdiction” (i.e., law, place of incorporation and headquarters location) as a baseline for all recommendations, and will work on solutions founded on this.  The Subgroup will not pursue recommendations to change ICANN's jurisdiction of incorporation or headquarters location or seek immunity for ICANN, recognizing there is no possibility of consensus for an immunity-based concept or a change of place of incorporation.  This does not eliminate any issues; the Subgroup can discuss all issues that might arise during deliberations.  This will be taken up at the CCWG Plenary F2F at ICANN59.

4.2.   Action Items:

4.2.1.    None

5.     List of Proposed Issues (10 minutes)

6.     Questionnaire (20 minutes)

6.1.   Response of Mohammad Reza Mousavi (Iran) (Erich Schweighofer).

7.     Review of ICANN Litigation (10 Minutes)

7.1.   Bord v. Banco de Chile (Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix)

7.2.   Arbitration: Employ Media v. ICANN (Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix)

7.3.   Commercial Connect, LLC v. ICANN and ICDR (Greg Shatan)

7.4.   Economic Solutions, Inc. v. ICANN (David McAuley)

8.     AOB

9.     Adjourned

Raw Captioning Notes

Please note that these are the unofficial transcript. Official transcript will be posted 2-3 days after the call

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

  Brenda Brewer: (6/20/2017 11:33) Good day all and welcom to Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #36 on 20 June 2017 @ 19:00 UTC!

  Brenda Brewer: (11:33) If you are not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6).  This call is recorded.

  Brenda Brewer: (11:33) Reminder to all, please speak slowly and state your name before speaking for the Captioner.  Thank you!

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (11:57) hello all

  d: (11:58) i am listed as 'd' and dialed in as 4154

  David McAuley: (11:58) I am being joined again today by two policy interns here at Verisign: Jonathan Peyster and Garrett Hinck.

  David McAuley: (11:58) but will also rejoin with real name

  David McAuley: (11:58) oh - already done

  David McAuley: (11:59) thanks

  Brenda Brewer: (12:01) Dialed out to Kavouss at his hotel, no answer thus far.

  Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (12:02) Hi all!

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:03) hi

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:03) starting?

  Wale Bakare: (12:04) Hi all

  David McAuley: (12:04) I am going to move to a new room and phone – will dial back in momentarily

  Milton Mueller: (12:04) Greetings

  Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (12:05) yes yes I'm there!

  Milton Mueller: (12:06) are you here or are you there? ;-)

  Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (12:06) ah! you got me on my ESL haha

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:07) congratulations Greg

  Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (12:07) congrats, Greg!

  Milton Mueller: (12:10) A question about Thomas's statement in 4.1.1.: when and where was it made?

  Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (12:11) at the last two meetings of the jurisdiction subgroup

  Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (12:12) I have explained this in detail

  Milton Mueller: (12:12) OK, I missed those meetings, Thomas

  Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (12:12) We will go through it in Joburg and explain thoroughly

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:13) indeed you have but it seems need to again Thomas

  Andreea Brambilla: (12:13) Apologies, was running late from another meeting.

  John Laprise: (12:14) Agree with Greg

  Thiago Jardim: (12:15) Thomas proposal gives an incentive for people not to work toward consensus. If people are interested in maintaining the status quo, all they have to do is to oppose everything. So that nothing gets traction. Indeed that's what some have being doing.  This perverts the rule of consensus, which requires consensus for solutions to be adopted and rejected. Now, with Thomas proposal, only solutions to be adopted would require consensus. But to reject and stop the group from doing any work, a handful of objections would be enough.

  David McAuley: (12:16) +1 @Thomas, Greg, John

  Thiago Jardim: (12:16) Leaving this for the record. I'm not hoping it will change people's minds.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:17) Unfortunately, I feel often relevant points we make fall on deaf ears.

  Milton Mueller: (12:18) Thiago: what alternative to California jurisdiction do you think a) actually exists now and b) is clearly superior?

  Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (12:19) Agreeing on taken California jurisdictions a baseline for all recommendations. But we should discuss the question on partly immunity for ICANN, if some would like to discuss this  - I am not one of them.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:19) Milton, personally, I would not favour a change of places

  Brenda Brewer: (12:19)

  David McAuley: (12:20) Brenda, 3349 is the number I moved to

  Brenda Brewer: (12:21) Thank you, David!

  Milton Mueller: (12:21) where is the list?

  Milton Mueller: (12:22) All is see is a blank spreadsheet

  Greg Shatan: (12:22) This is a new document.  It needs to be populated by the Subgroup.

  Milton Mueller: (12:23) OK, got it. So we all have write privileges

  Milton Mueller: (12:25) Very good analysis, Erich

  Milton Mueller: (12:26) Can the transcriber ask Erich to flesh out the critical points that were left out?

  Christopher Wilkinson (CW) 2: (12:28) I find that I have nothing more to add to this group. I shall join the CCWG Plenary remotely next week. I have already stated that any ccTLD court cases must be heard in the jurisdiction of the country concerned.

  Milton Mueller: (12:28) That's wrong Greg

  Thiago Jardim: (12:28) That's wrong Greg (2)

  Bartlett Morgan: (12:29) yes

  Milton Mueller: (12:31)  mostem fat tickically :-)

  Milton Mueller: (12:32) Transcription should not say "the court mostem fat tickically did not decide it was an asset" but rather the court most emphatically did not decide that it was NOT an asset.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:32) audio dropping

  Yvette Guigneaux 2: (12:32) Thiago - you're cutting in and out

  John Laprise: (12:35) It doesn't matter where the jurisdiction is: every juridction has its own idiosyncrasies and ICANN as a legal construct requires rule of law to function.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:36) John, should this prevent the subgroup from identifying the idiosyncrasies, as you call it, of the jurisdictions to which ICANN is subject ?

  John Laprise: (12:36) It's like a discussion about air/water quality

  Yvette Guigneaux 2: (12:36) hi all - we're getting feedback on the line so it was muted - please feel free to speak - star 6 (*6) to unmute your phone

  Thiago Jardim: (12:36) How will you come up with a way of mitigating them if we do not discuss them.

  John Laprise: (12:38) Mitigation isn't really an option Thiago. Mitigation is effectively a conscious attempt to circumvent jurisdictional law which most jurisdictions take a dim view of.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:38) So now not only should we not discuss remedies, but also we should not enter into substative discussions...

  John Laprise: (12:39) We can certainly identify and prepare fule them but those indiosyncrasies are constraints accepted with the jurisdction

  Thiago Jardim: (12:39) What

  Thiago Jardim: (12:39) What's your point then.*

  John Laprise: (12:40) Idntifying potential issues is fine and maybe something to keep on the shelf and even, where possible be aware of the potential pitfalls but actual active mitigation just isn't in the cards.

  Greg Shatan: (12:41) We will be looking at potential issues, determining if they are in fact issues and within our remit, and if so, discussing potential recommendations for dealing with the issues.

  Greg Shatan: (12:42) I would not get hung up on the word "mitigation".

  Thiago Jardim: (12:42) Greg, in sum, there was no need to get into that co-chair's proposal that  you will be submitting to the plenary.

  Milton Mueller: (12:42) He's a nut job

  Greg Shatan: (12:43) Thiago, I'm not sure what your point is.

  Greg Shatan: (12:43) For the record, Milton is referring to Mr. Schreiber in his chat comment above.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:43) I'll be please to tell you more, just ask me what you do not understand.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:43) pleased*

  Milton Mueller: (12:44) thanks for the clarification Greg! :-)

  Greg Shatan: (12:44) I don't understand why you say there was no need to get into the Co-Chairs' decision.  Our practice is to restate the decisions from the prior meeting.  I agree there was no need to use that as a jumping off point to discuss the decision further in this meeting.

  Thiago Jardim: (12:45) I apologise I was not clear. What I meant was that we did not need to decide anything alongside the lines of thomas's proposal for us to do what you said we should be doing.

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (12:46) time check - 15 minutes to the top of the hour

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (12:46) thanks

  Thiago Jardim: (12:47) I have heard many times, from a group of people, that the views contrary to theirs are a "minority" view. But these views have never been really tested. If the rapporteur had, in due course, taken them up for consideration by the Subgroup, in a similar fashion as he did to adopt the Co-chair's proposal last week, I'm fairly confident that there would be no more objections to them than there were against the Co-chair's proposal.

  Steve DelBianco 2: (12:48) thanks to Andreas for those excellent case summaries

  Milton Mueller: (12:54) Less than 10 minutes left....

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (12:54) Time check - 5 minutes left to the top of the hour

  Milton Mueller: (12:56) please, lets get it over with

  Milton Mueller: (12:59) well done, David

  Thiago Jardim: (13:00) we started 6 min late

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (13:00) thanks everyone bye for now then,  safe travels to those who are attending JNB...

  Yvette Guigneaux 2: (13:00) safe travels all

  David McAuley 2: (13:01) safe travels all

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (13:02) bye all

  Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix: (13:02) A nice meeting to those attenting! and safe travels

  Andreea Brambilla: (13:02) Thank you


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