Apologies: Bastiaan Goslings, Paul Twomey.
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/mssi-projects/
The audio recording is available here:
Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
2. Final Discussion on: Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1 (attached and here:
3. General Discussion & Q&A on Ruggie Principles and Ruggie FIFA report (attached and here:
4. Discussion on: Analysis of Ruggie Principles for ICANN – Short presentation by Drafting Volunteers https://docs.google.com/document/d/10XMIVosuEfgmXwr7SQjeNLKI8r_hdONrJNV2ih72V80/edit
SOI changes and updates, concerns with process and procedures for group and with ICANN - Annex 6 procedures
2. Final Discussion on: Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1
2nd reading - No comments recieved on the list, asked for comments from participants on the call. no comments, proposed agreed document and accept it as is. Indication from participants that they support using the document as drafted.
3. General Discussion & Q&A on Ruggie Principles and Ruggie FIFA report
Discussion of the Ruggie Principles and concerns raised during WS1 and how they apply to ICANN and if they can be applied to ICANN. Need to look at framework for applicaiton , note that 1) we still are waiting for the assessment of the meaning of the HR commitment being a "core value"; 2) Last week we agreed to look into the Ruggie Principles, one by one: please let us do so, without making absolute claims as to their relevance. Might be a good idea to discssion the iprincipels one by one for applicablibity and applicaiton. Principels 1 through 10 apply to member states so would not apply to ICANN as ICANN does not have a state role. Sshould start with Principle 11 to determine if apply's to ICANN.In response to a question the Ruggie Principles appear to apply to corporations who are governed/owned by a state, which is different that the role of ICANN which could make them a bad fit to apply to ICANN.
Conclude that ICANN is not a state, ICANN may not be a clear cut organziation that the principles apply. Need to go ahead with the drafting team to have them analyze the appropriate princples as they may apply to ICANN
4. Discussion on: Analysis of Ruggie Principles for ICANN – Short presentation by Drafting Volunteers
Report from the drafting team
1. Drafting team to analyze the appropriate Ruggie princples as they may apply to ICANN
2, Add to the agenda for next meeting the process and procedures to use (PDP) for ICANN hman rights
Yvette Guigneaux: Welcome to the WS2 Human Rights Subteam Meeting #5 | 19:00 UTC | Tuesday, 13 September
John Laprise:Good afternoon all
Kavouss Arasteh:Dear Brenda, Dear NEW Host ,good time ,day or night
Brenda Brewer:Hello all!
Kavouss Arasteh:Good evening Niels
Niels ten Oever:Hi Kavouss, it's morning here in Australia :)
Niels ten Oever:Good evening to you and to everyone on the call of course.
Kavouss Arasteh:sORRY, i THOUGHT YOU ARE IN nETHERLANDD
Kavouss Arasteh:bUT YOU DO NOT aUSTRALIAN aCCENT
Corinne Cath:its the beard kavouss - it hides the aussie accent
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):hi everyone
Niels ten Oever:You are right Kavouss. I am based in the Netherland, but have to travel a lot for work..
Tatiana Tropina:hi all
Kavouss Arasteh:tATIANA AND hUMAN RIGHTS
David McAuley (RySG):Brenda, I am 8222
Brenda Brewer:Thank you David!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):which State / city are you in Nidls?
rudi daniel:hi all
Tatiana Tropina:can't get a dial out from the system, doesn't connect me. Will try to dial in, but otherwise in listening mode for now
Kavouss Arasteh:Any Human Rights meeting without RTatiana and Nigel is not really formal
Chris LaHatte:Hi from Los Angeles
Tatiana Tropina:Brenda, I am 3791.
Brenda Brewer:Thank you Tatiana!
Herb Waye Ombuds:Hello from LA
Corinne Cath:Bonsoir from Brussels
David McAuley (RySG):I think BYlaw 27.2 tells of process to approve - like WS1 and then to Board
Brenda Brewer:no, she called in
Tatiana Tropina:we have to approve like CCWG WS1
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thanks Neils
Tatiana Tropina:May be we ask for the comments on the call?
David McAuley (RySG):please mute if not speaking
Corinne Cath:Can you please mute your mic if you are not speaking
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):please MUTE
Kavouss Arasteh:Niels I disagree to put FOI of Human Rights within the process of PDP
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Annex 6 says we as a group need to determine how the FOI will be reviewed "to ensure broad multistakeholder participation" and consistent with ICANN "policies and processes".
Tatiana Tropina:green ticks may be?
Tatiana Tropina:otherwise we can give it one more week
Kavouss Arasteh:aNNE, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAND TO PUT IT UNDER pdpè
David McAuley (RySG):poor connection?
Tatiana Tropina:Niels you are breaking.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):sound is very bad
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Kavouss - right but likely to GNSO Guidance for example
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):audio is BAD
Tatiana Tropina:Niels, we can barely hear you
Kavouss Arasteh:Niels I can not hear you well
Andrew Mack:line is really breaking
Paul McGrady:I"m having trouble hearing you.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):loosing you Niels
David McAuley (RySG):audio became unintelligible
Greg Shatan:Niels you have degraded signficantly.
Tatiana Tropina:no audio at all now.
Greg Shatan:Your audio, that is.
David McAuley (RySG):Tijani you sound great
Andrew Mack:hear you fine Tijani
Tatiana Tropina:No reds.
David McAuley (RySG):Well done, Greg, making clear it is #2
Kavouss Arasteh:who is chairng the meeting pls
Erich Schweighofer:Hi all, sorry for being late (EURALO call)
Tatiana Tropina:do we have the co-chair on the call?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):lost sound - what's up?
Brenda Brewer:If your phone number is listed in Attendee pod as 202xxx1077, please identify your name for attendance purposes. Thank you!
Kavouss Arasteh:Don't we have the co-chair
David McAuley (RySG):Brenda - can you dial Niels?
Brenda Brewer:I do not hve Niels phone number. Please stand by
Corinne Cath:i have it
Brenda Brewer:Niels has disconnected
David McAuley (RySG):OK thanks Brenda
Corinne Cath:who should i give it to
David McAuley (RySG):to Brenda Corinne
Tatiana Tropina:Greg !
Tatiana Tropina:go to the item 4
Niels ten Oever:am back
Niels ten Oever:Go ahead Greg
David McAuley (RySG):Thank you Greg for filling in
Brenda Brewer:calling Niels now
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):we were not skipping but going back once Niels got back... happy to rrevert to 3 in order now he is back
Greg Shatan:Item 3
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Anne was speaking to 3 Kavous
Tatiana Tropina:David, absolutely. I think some of the questions posted in the doc would be addressed if Paul speaks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):I agree with your gnral points DAVID
Tatiana Tropina:we have a transcript, I can send it to the list if the group wants.
Tatiana Tropina:I mean Paul Twomey's concerns expressed on WP4 call
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):please do so Tatiana
Tatiana Tropina:Jorge, yes, I think it might clarify some of our exchanges on the google doc
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Yes that would be helpful Tatiana
Tatiana Tropina:Alright, will send it right after the call
Niels ten Oever:@Greg - ICANN is a not for profit corporation, right?
rudi daniel:audio is breaking up
David McAuley (RySG):I agree we must disaggregate them - Ruggie for for "corporations" ICANN is unique
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):What can we learn from the application of Ruggie to FIFA? anyone is able to sum it up?
Corinne Cath:That Ruggie can be applied to organizations that dont traditionally fit the Ruggie principles bill so to speak
Greg Shatan:FIFA is much more of a business enterprise than ICANN is....
Tatiana Tropina:The problem is not the application, the problem is the extent of the requirements
John Laprise:Great. "Neither fish nor fowl..."?
David McAuley (RySG):+1 Tatiana
Tatiana Tropina:Agree, Greg. Some of the impact FIFA can address ICANN can't
Tatiana Tropina:yes, parts or I would even say - some wording, the probem is some parts can be good but they contain some wording that is not applicable...
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Could be useful to have a neutral, objective analysis of the value of the FIFA-Ruggie experience...
Niels ten Oever:Audio quality is not very clear unfortunately
David McAuley (RySG):poor connection
Paul McGrady:Andrew you seem fuzzy sounding
David McAuley (RySG):Agree with Andrew that if we do adopt any part of Ruggie we need to specify how, to wha t extend, etc
matthew shears:I think we need to be very careful about picking from this or that text - we can learn from the applicaiton of he Ruggie princples to FIFA but lets be cautoious in bringing over any aspect of that analysis
matthew shears:agree David
Tatiana Tropina:Matt, wise.
Tatiana Tropina:and David.
rudi daniel:Jorge has a point here, it would be good to get view of the Fifa model.
Kavouss Arasteh:The discussion is not properly conducted
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Re: Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights document we are discussing, we should refer to p. 19 Principle 18. (b), re assessment of human rights risks in its business activities. Document says "This process should ... (b) Involve meaningful consultation with potentially affected groups and other relevant stakeholders, as appropriate to the size of the business enterprise and the nature and context of the operation." This guiding principle is EXTREMELY important for ICANN because the MS Model operates very differently from other non-profit corporations.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Agree with you Andrew / Tijani they can *inform* us not much more
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):ICANN is a private organization - perhaps not a business enterprise - but it also engages in commercial activity. Let's not exclude the relevance of Ruggie out of a narrow definition
David McAuley (RySG):+1 Tijani, CLO
Kavouss Arasteh:We must merely focus on business enterprises only and examine if ICANN is really falling under business enterprises?
Corinne Cath:+ Jorge
Andrew Mack:Paul, this seems like a simple, good idea
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Jorge that is of course where the Principals can*inform* us
David McAuley (RySG):Various laws apply I think as ICANN has a presence in various places
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):I suspect so David
Niels ten Oever:I only heard the first syllable
David McAuley (RySG):uh oh, just lost Jorge
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, + 10000000000
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, another plus million
David McAuley (RySG):exactlly Greg, good point
Niels ten Oever:Agree with Greg, we need to stick to our mandate, which is the development of a FoI
matthew shears:I am concerned that we are in the weeds on Ruggie - should we not be up a couple of levels and looking at what the FOI is asking us to do?
matthew shears:+ 1 Greg and David
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):AGREE Greg
David McAuley (RySG):and the bylaw mentions applicable law
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yup
Paul McGrady:Agree Greg. We should find out what is already on the page before we go and add additional items.
Tatiana Tropina:I agree with Kavouss!
Tatiana Tropina:we are dealing with two many things in the moment, and it comes to the point Greg brought. About figuring out what we have to do
Tatiana Tropina:what is the scope of our work
Greg Shatan:Good point David. In order to provide a framework to interpret the Bylaw, that framework needs to identify the applicable law.
David McAuley (RySG):yes
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yes
David McAuley (RySG):oh my
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):did he drop again?
David McAuley (RySG):Jorge's line is misbehaving
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):QUE
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):is he getting a dial out then?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):QUESTION: When will we have an answer from ICANN Legal as to commitments pursuant to "applicable law"?
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):sorry and I apologize for the bad audio
Niels ten Oever:Greg - would Princople 11,12,13,14 and 17 work as contribution to FoI ?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@ Jorge - do you want to type your comment and one of us will read it? I will volunteer to read it or Chair can read.
Greg Shatan:Our fundamental scope is to make a Framework of Interpretation so that the Bylaw will be consistently interpreted when it is applied, as much as possible.
matthew shears:+ 1 Tatiana
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):What I wanted to say: 1) we still are waiting for the assessment of the meaning of the HR commitment being a "core value"; 2) Last week we agreed to look into the Ruggie Principles, one by one: please let us do so, without making absolute claims as to their relevance
Andrew Mack:Greg -- it also doesn't include many other key ICANN actors
Tatiana Tropina:Jorge, agree. We better to go one by one and that's what I meant...
Tatiana Tropina:even after listing the general concenrs
Chris LaHatte:why dont we develop our own set of principles-the ICANN principles, which commit to an agreed set of human rights?
Niels ten Oever:We did not get a reply from ICANN legal to our question.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):And in parallel we may have a look at the FIFA paper and see what we can learn from there
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):FIFA: has NO immunity whatsoever in Switzerland
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Please correct that
Greg Shatan:That's a relief.
Greg Shatan:They certainly have no immunity in the US, as we learned recently.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):it's a private association, dealing with a sector, composed by private national associations
Greg Shatan:Thanks, Jorge.
Erich Schweighofer:Host states can give also "private" international organisations privileges and immunities
Andrew Mack:the question of applicable law is important, and sounds messy.
Erich Schweighofer:RedCross may be a better examle
Erich Schweighofer:Applicable law = law of seat or acitvity
Erich Schweighofer:If yu are active worldwide - messy
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):yes Erich - there are a number of such organizations... such as the Red Cross
Erich Schweighofer:therefore privileges and immunities for IOs were crated
David McAuley (RySG):Here is the Bylaw phrase in which reference to applicable law appears (not the entire bylaw): “…respecting internationally recognized human rights as required by applicable law…”
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Many non-profit directors have immunity under applicable U.S. state corporate laws - including in California I think. - based on what Holly and Rosemary said. That is about personal liability.
David McAuley (RySG):To my reading, any interpretation would ask at least two questions: is that internationally recognized HR and is it required by applicable law?
Chris LaHatte:+1 Jorge, Red Cross is a good precedent
Greg Shatan:The Ruggie Principles depend on the role of the State as well as the role of the Business Enterprise.
Tatiana Tropina:+1 Greg
David McAuley (RySG):+1 Greg, Tatiana
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@ David - I think you make a very good point that the FOI would be much more helpful to the Community and to the Board if it breaks out framework in relation to the two questions you pose.
David McAuley (RySG):Thanks Anne, much for us to do to get this right
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I also think that if done the way you are framing these two questions, it makes the Board obligations much more clear and it reduces the risk associated with possible Request for Reconsideration and IRP actions.
Chris LaHatte:Ruggie principles are a guide for us to develop our own HR principles
Tatiana Tropina:I agree with Greg. Again.
Greg Shatan:Chris +1.
matthew shears:+ 1 Greg - then lets agree jhow they apply if they do to ICANN the corporation and then move on.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Icann is a special animal. It regulates through contract, applying policies adopted by its community. But it operates under corporate law.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO) 2:that is how I see threm Chris
Greg Shatan:I agree Kavouss, but the Ruggie Principles assume the role of the state interacting with the role of the business in order to accomplish its objectives.
Greg Shatan:That is why the Ruggie Principles are a bad fit.
David McAuley (RySG):With respect, I am not sure I agree @Chris. If we develop principles they have to be internationally recognized as required by applicable law – can we do that?
Erich Schweighofer:Agee with Greg - ICANN is a sui generis organisation corporate law does not apply and regulation by contract is nothing new
Greg Shatan:As an employer it is obliged to follow applicable laws in the jurisdiction of employment, like any other business enterprise. That's why I brought that up -- to contrast it with ICANN's role in other facets of its operations.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Erich: why does corporate law not apply? I feel we have learned the contrary
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Jorge - you have identified one of my big concerns in relation to adopting FOI without GNSO expedited policy process. The Contracted parties CANNOT be bound by contract as far as I know, without development of "Consensus Policy" and Consensus Policy may only be adopted via either full PDP or Expedited PDP.
David McAuley (RySG):Sui generis captures it, good choice @Erich
Greg Shatan:Where it does not have a "state" in clear apposition.
Paul McGrady 2:I think my suggestion of finding out what the California baseline is should be given further thought.
Chris LaHatte:ICANN being unique, gives us the challenge to develop our own set, but based on existing templates like the UNHR and Ruggies
David McAuley (RySG):We need to develop a plan to review Ruggie if that is our intent
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):we conclude that ICANN is not a state :D
Erich Schweighofer:Chris: that is the challenge.
Tatiana Tropina::) that's a good conclusion
Greg Shatan:Corporate law applies to ICANN, but where it stops acting like a traditional corp., the model falls apart.
Chris LaHatte:ICANN is a state of mind :-)
David McAuley (RySG):I will be out of touch Saturday through Tuesday
Erich Schweighofer:ICANN is not a corporation more an assocation
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):or a mind of state?
Andrew Mack:+1 Chris
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Re the subteam draft document, I would suggest we delete all of Roman Numeral I which is applicable only to States.
matthew shears:+ 1 Greg - then lets get that out of the way as a first step[ and move on
Tatiana Tropina:+1 Matt and Greg
Paul McGrady 2:Apologies, but I have to go to the next call.
Greg Shatan:Bye all!
David McAuley (RySG):whoa - we are not developing contract principles are we?
Erich Schweighofer:Bye all.
David McAuley (RySG):we do need clarity here
rudi daniel:by all,
John Laprise:Adavance Anne
Tatiana Tropina:bye all, have a great day or evening
Kavouss Arasteh:I totally disagree to put the FOI in a PDP
Corinne Cath:bye all
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Re the subteam draft document, I would suggest we delete all of Roman Numeral I which is applicable only to States.\
Chris LaHatte:Bye all
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO) 2:Thanks everyone talk again soon Thanks Niels Much more to discuss *clearly*
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):bye