Sub-group Members: Aarti Bhavana, Agustina Callegari, Andrew Mack, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Bastiaan Goslings, Brett Schaefer, Chris LaHatte, Daniel Appelman, David McAuley, Elizabeth Andrews, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh BAdii, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Harold Arcos, Hibah Hussain, Iren Borissova, Isabel Rutherfurd, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Lousewies van der Laan, Marilia Maciel, Markus Kummer, Niels ten Oever, Paul McGrady, Robin Gross, Ron da Silva, Samantha Eisner, Steve Metalitz, Tatiana Tropina, Tijani Ben Jemaa, Vicky Sheckler
Observers: Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Taylor Bentley
Staff: Bernie Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Nigel Hickson
Apologies: Nigel Roberts
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
The audio recording is available here:
Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
2. Discussion on: the Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_rNkjMVJPOmYwmdr5B1_M_aNMoZb4/edit?usp=sharing
3. Discussion on: Concerns on possible impacts of Human Rights bylaw and FoI https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KcKGRJjuhKEzCh2AZ8PPR_MofOQFBN8CMuJqTG_h9h4/edit?usp=sharing
4. Discussion on FoI draft document
Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
- Cheryl Langdon-Orr currently only on phone.
- Nigel Roberts Excused.
- No changes to SOIs.
2. Discussion on: the Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1
- Tatiana Tropina: document essentially completed.
- David McAuley: I just lost my phone - will change - in meantime I was present in WP4 and have read document Tanya is speaking about and have no issue with it,
- Anne Aikman-Scalese: AGree with those on the list who have remarked that the definition of "respect" is a very important part of developing this FOI.
- Niels ten Oever: Comments on the document as is?
- Kavous Arasteh: We should never approve anything in one meeting especially given this short notice.
- Niels ten Oever: We will leave the document open for comments in the coming week and seek approval at our next meeting if there are no significant issues.
3. Discussion on: Concerns on possible impacts of Human Rights bylaw and FoI
- Niels ten Oever: Paul Twomey is still unavailable and as such the document has not advanced much.
- Greg Shatan: We need to have a plan as to how to add to this document and organize it.
- Kavous Arasteh: Can we have the document on the screen. We seem to still be struggling with respect vs enforcement.
- Andrew Mack: same concerns as KA.
- Tatiana Tropina: the bylaws clearly state we cannot put in enforcement or protection. Some parts of Ruggie go to enforcement.
- jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): As the Ruggie principles are recognized as a standard, we would need to clearly explain when and why we would diverge from them in this in the FoI
- Greg Shatan: We have to be careful not to stumble into default enforcement.
- Kavous Arateh: Need to avoid enforcement.
- David McAuley: I agree with GS and TT. If we develop something we are not developing policy we are interpreting the bylaws which requires us to RESPECT Internationally recognized HR - this is very specific.
- Tijani Ben Jemaa: There is no mention of enforcement in the remit of WS2 for HR. this would be widening the scope and is not acceptable.
- Tatiana Tropina: Greg, I wonder if there is a transcript. We agreed in the WS1 to treat Ruggie with care but it seems that it comes up again and again. So may be finding the discussion makes the things easier (I am afraid to use the word "easy" now)
- Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): agree that we are here for an "interpretation" exercise, not a policy development
- Greg Shatan: Thanks, Niels. I see it is an implementation for FIFA. How ironic.
- Markus Kummer: +1 - for sure. But we have to analyze why and where the Ruggie Principles don't apply to ICANN.
- Tatiana Tropina: Niels, ICANN is not like other non-profit too. there is already the cctld debate on the doc - as one of the points
- David McAuley: We should not assume that the Ruggie principles will be included in an HR FOI until we all agree on which parts apply.
- TatianaTropina: Completely agree. Need to wait for Paul Twomey who has significant experience with the Ruggie principals.
- Tatiana Tropina: Markus, exactly. One of the points I already vocied - in my opinion they do go to enforcement and protection (Ok, mitigation and remedies) and many of these ICANN can't do
- Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): The Mission sets the limits to ICANN actions - insofar ccTLDs are concerned, ICANNs role is very limited
- Anne Aikman-Scalese: Unfortunately the Ruggie definition of "respect" appears to implicate ICANN in content regulation.
- Markus Kummer: +1 David
- Kavous Arasteh: If we are to include the Ruggie principles it should be a consensus of this group.
- David McAuley 2: +1 Tanya, and Paul Twomey's insights as a prior ICANN CEO will be quite helpful
- Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): It would certainly see Paul Twomeys comments again and consider them in light of the wording given to the commitment in the new Bylaws (...as a "core value")
- Tatiana Tropina: Ruggie shall be out unless we decide they are in... Agree that we shall not discuss for a long time about their applicability since we decided not to commit to them :)
- Greg Shatan: Agree with DM and TT that Ruggie principles are out until they are in. Given the lack of other input we need to find alternatives? or do we have to start from scratch. If we do start from scratch, then we have to give a nod to the Ruggie principles. FIFA definition of respect seems very active and bordering on enforcement?
- Kavous Arasteh: we should not discuss Enforce or Protect going forward.
- Niels ten Oever: we should look at the Ruggie principles.
- Tijani Ben Jemaa: Participants should look at the Ruggie principles and given their input on the list as to what is applicable and what is not.
- Niel ten Oever: we need to analyze the Ruggie Principles to see how they could apply, or not, to ICANN. Who would take on doing the first cut of the analysis?
- Tatiana Tropina: Hm, Niels, no, I think co-chairs shall put the doc on and then we all comment
- Tatiana Tropina: I don't think there would be a lack of comments! Rather I percieve an unredable mess
- Niels Ten Oever: PM and TT on point for this. Everyone should familiarize themselves with the Ruggie principles before the meeting next week.
4. Discussion on FoI draft document
- Niels ten Oever: Mostly covered in the previous point and on the list. As such we shall skip this point today.
- Neils ten Oever: review of agenda for the next meeting.
- Kavous Arateh: Can we have an updated version of the plan and when there are meetings schedule.
- Tijani Ben Jemaa: Please send links and documents on the list so everyone can familiarize themselves with those documents for our next meeting.
- Niels ten Oever: Adjourned.