Sub-group Members:   Alan Greenberg, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christian Dawson, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, John Curran, Jorge Villa, Julf Helsingius, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Mary Uduma, Matthew Shears, Olga Cavalli, Rinalia Abdul Rahim, Robin Gross, Sebastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Tatiana Tropina, Taylor Bentley, Willie Currie   (21)

Staff:  Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry


**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**




1. Call Admin and Roll Call/ Apologies 

2. Welcome - Opening Remarks  (3min- CLO,  SDB, FB)

3. Review (brief) of last call #1 and any Action Items / Business Arising (5min- CLO, SDB, FB)

4. Discuss and evaluate “Mutual Accountability Roundtable” idea  (25-30min-FB/WC) 

5.  Discuss our work plan (5-10min- CLO, SDB, FB)

       * AI's 

       * Dependencies with other DT's

       * Next Steps

 6.  AOB / Next Meeting (5min- CLO)


Review and approval of the agenda, including a review of DT operating processes while holding a call.

Agenda distribution will be more timely in the future as subgroup Rapporteurs will distribute directly .

Discussion of the Mutual Accountability Roundtable proposal and possible approaches to framing what the roundtable might cover and include. Mighe need to do a level set to see where we are on the roundtable. and how mutual approach might be undertaken between the SO/AC communty, it is sharing best practices, what trying to accomplish in looking at accountaility 

Question posed - is the Mutual Accountability Roundtable a viable option


- need problem statment in order to fully consider

- what problem trying to solve

- will this improve performance, not sure might need to try first before determining

-need to underdatnd the usefulness of the roundtable before proceeding

- what is mutual accountability to one SO/AC and between them all

- need more than a problem statement

Determined to out queston on hold and spend time framng the question 

Suggested work start on concept paper  and having it shared on Google Doc's or other agreed exchange platfor

Action Item

1. Report to the CCWG Plenary in two weeks progress on draft document, wiki to be ultimate repository of subgroups material.

Action Items

Action Item:  1. Report to the CCWG Plenary in two weeks progress on draft document, wiki to be ultimate repository of subgroups material.

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

  Brenda Brewer:Hello all and welcome to SO/AC Accountability Subgroup Meeting #2 on 11 August 2016 @ 19:00 UTC!

  Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Brenda

  Brenda Brewer:Hi Kavouss!

  Kavouss Arasteh:This is my thirtd call today?

  Brenda Brewer:Yours and mine!  :)

  Karen Mulberry:Hello eveyone

  Julf Helsingius (GNSO NCPH NCA):hi

  Farzaneh Badii:hi all

  Mary Uduma:Hello Everyone

  Kavouss Arasteh:Brenda, How long the call lasts

  Brenda Brewer:One hour call

  Kavouss Arasteh:gOOD

  Farzaneh Badii:Thank you

  Tatiana Tropina:hi all

  matthew shears:hello

  Christian Dawson:Hello all

  John Curran:good day all!

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:hello everyone. I am in listen mode as I am in a rather busy room.

  Kavouss Arasteh:Be aware that I am b not  in favour of round table accountabiltz as a formal response to any accountability

  Kavouss Arasteh:Round table is just talk and exchange of views and has no formal conclusions

  Farzaneh Badii:thank you Kavouss. Your comment shall be noted. We will discuss this during our session.

  Leon Sanchez:Hello everyone!

  Leon Sanchez:apologies for lateness

  Avri Doria:please unsynch

  Avri Doria:thanks

  matthew shears:Willie - thanks - is there a concern that "calling one another to account" is going cause reluctance to attend?

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]:In the new bylaws, regarding WS2: Evaluate “Mutual Accountability Roundtable” idea

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:I had read a document that says the mutual accountability round table would replace the public forum. is this correct? If it were in addition to, it would be fine. but to replace is a problem for me. apologies I cannot speak during this call.

  Farzaneh Badii:that was a recommendation Rinalia. some disagreed last session to this proposal as well.

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:ok, thank you.

  matthew shears:I don't think that it is supposed to replace the Forum which is a key element of EC processes

  matthew shears:+ 1 Steve

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]:Perhaps I could respond to Willie on that assumption he states.

  Greg Shatan:This sounds like a finger-pointing contest, rather than an accountability tool.

  Robin Gross:I share that concern, Greg.

  Tatiana Tropina:Yes, it is not clear what this has to do with accountability

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]:a roundtable of the Board, CEO and all supporting AC/SO chairs. Pick a key issue to examine. Each describes how their constituency addressed the issue, indicating what worked and didn’t work. Then a discussion to create a space for mutual accountability and a learning space for improvement.

  matthew shears:I think that there is value in an accountability roundtable to share experiences and challenges and how various approaches - which do differ - have worked or not.  I don't believe that space exists in ICANN

  Tatiana Tropina:Matt, is it accountability roundtable or "good practices" roundtable?

  matthew shears:that works

  Farzaneh Badii:that depends on the topic Tatiana

  John Curran:It might be worthwhile to have a a roundtable  where each SO/AC presents the results of its respective accountability review.   This certainly would not be strong or foolproof accountability mechanism but it might reinforce the consistency/quality/responsiveness of the reviews.

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:I  believe there is value in having a round table. I have encountered situations in the course where org reviews were not able to "call out" specific weaknesses within specific structures.

  Tatiana Tropina:I see the value in the roundtabe certainly.

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]:Sorry, Alan -- I was correcting your misperception.  I said the Org Reviews are NOT effective today

  matthew shears:but one that exchanges experiences and best practices on accountability

  Tatiana Tropina:but I do not understand how sharing best practices on selected topic will solve accounatility issue as a whole thing

  Tatiana Tropina:as one of the measures - sure, might be useful

  Farzaneh Badii:yes it is one of the measures

  Tatiana Tropina:ok, if this is practices on accountabiluty - this is ok, as one of the measures. I am getting it now, thanks.

  Olga Cavalli:Hi apologies for being late

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]:It was for being "excessive", Greg !

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)::-)

  jorge villa (ASO):any SO/AC is different to the rest of the SO/AC. Accordingly is different to try to compare which one is doing it better. I think that the most interesting thing is to know that each SO/AC is accountable (respect to any specific topic) or is doing good steps to be accountable.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Hi Olga

  Tatiana Tropina:I still share Greg's and Robin's concerns they raised here on the chat

  Olga Cavalli:Hi Cheryl!

  jorge villa (ASO):+1 John Curran

  matthew shears:sharing best practioces "could be" part of the mix

  jorge villa (ASO):challenge each other on their performances is not effective because you can't compare things that are different by nature, and the spirit is to enhance icann accountability as a whole, not to create a competition between SO/ACs

  Kavouss Arasteh:The chair Shall not insist on the idea that the chair of so /AC getting together and decid on something

  Kavouss Arasteh:Pls abandonn that idiea

  Kavouss Arasteh:There is no such delegation of authority to represt any ac or so by its chair

  Kavouss Arasteh:You want to have a taking table do it but noIMPACT AT ALL

  Brenda Brewer:Kavous's line is open on this end

  Kavouss Arasteh:no output at all

  Kavouss Arasteh:Pls listen to the people and do nopt insist

  John Curran:I believe it would be helpful to have a brief statement of the problem that we're trying to solve with the RoundTable...  Depending on that problem statement, the particulars of the RoundTable might be very different.

  matthew shears:+ 1 John

  jorge villa (ASO):+1 John

  Tatiana Tropina:+1 more to John

  Kavouss Arasteh:We need to clearly mention the objective, composition and status of the outcome if any

  Robin Gross:I agree that we need to discuss the "problem" or the issue before we proopose specific solutions.  Perhaps a roundtable is best, but maybe there is something better.

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:agreed, John Curran.

  Farzaneh Badii:the recommendation says topics are chosen based on the roundtable discussions.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Remember you all have scroll control

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:GOal is to improve performance, by sharing what worked and did not work

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:that is from Willie's text and slide 3

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:what would be the incentive for each SO-AC to be honest about weaknesses/what didn't work?

  Tatiana Tropina:I am asking myself the same question as Rinalia. What is the insenctive? From my experience it will work only if there is real trust built between participants of the round table

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:that "honesty" might be encouraged if we allow SO/AC members to attend and talk about their experiences.

  Tatiana Tropina:Of course we assume good will and bona fide, but I kind of have concerns whether we can imply good will and bona fide always when we talk about accountability

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:Then again, that could turn into a big Gripe session

  Tatiana Tropina:I am not really sceptical that much, I think it +can work+ as an additional measure, but it is rather supplementary. To real accountability measures, If we want them, of course

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Indeed Greg  we are just *starting* the discourse :-)  But  all good interchnge  IMO

  matthew shears:+ 1 Greg

  Tatiana Tropina:absolutely, Greg.

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:We have seen the car, Greg.    It is the prenset process of SO/AC considering and deciding on their positions

  Tatiana Tropina:We are trying to solve something with some solutions which value we don't understand yet

  Robin Gross:Agree with Greg.

  Tatiana Tropina:Agree with Greg too

  Tatiana Tropina:May be we can discuss what we are trying to achieve first to ensure we are on the same page? It seems we are not.

  Tatiana Tropina:and then move to the roundtable idea?

  Tatiana Tropina:without writing it off now?

  Greg Shatan 2:Another question, not considered here: if we were to get the SOAC chairs together, or the SOACSGCRALO chairs together, what is the best use of their ltime?

  Greg Shatan 2:Is this it?

  Tatiana Tropina:@Greg, you just broke the longest achromyms record...

  Greg Shatan 2:ROFLMAO

  Greg Shatan 2:I see fields of green,

  Greg Shatan 2:Red roses, too,

  John Curran:The term "Mutual Accountability" may be part of the problem.   If one considers the SO/AC's as accountable representatives of segments of the global community, and that it is valid to ask the SO/AC's to positively assert periidically that they are indeed accountable to same, then when would such representations be made at ICANN, and what would we call that session? 

  Tatiana Tropina:nothing is real... greeeeen fields forever....

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:Good point, John. 

  Tatiana Tropina:May be we can discuss on the list? Or google doc?

  Tatiana Tropina:including the point made by John

  Tatiana Tropina:so on the next call we can just move on...

  John Curran:"SO/AC Accountability Presentations" ? 

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:THe WS2 bylaw says it this way: Supporting Organization and Advisory Committee accountability, including but not limited to improved processes for accountability, transparency, and participation that are helpful to prevent capture;

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:that's on page 35 of the new bylaws

  John Curran:Hmm.  Thanks Steve - very helpful to review that.

  Robin Gross:we may want to discuss if we want this roundtable document to be our first order of business

  Greg Shatan 2:Starting with mutual accountability strikes me as the wrong starting point, much less starting with a roundtable to deal with it, whatever it is.  We may get there, but not yet.  And when we get there, we should know more than we do now.

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:John: how SO/ACs are accountable to global public of Internet users session. :)

  Greg Shatan 2:A more basic question: Who are SOACs accountable to?

  Avri Doria:no objection to us getting started

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:I guess rapporteurs are the ones who volunteered to draft the text, right

  Greg Shatan 2:or "To Whom are SOACs accountable?"

  Leon Sanchez:I have to leave the call now. Sorry for not staying till the end.

  Robin Gross:"In what way should SOACs be accountable?" is another question.

  Leon Sanchez:Thanks everyone!

  Greg Shatan 2:I think there are more than 2 accountabiilty vectors.

  Rinalia Abdul Rahim:Greg - to whom are SOACs accountable to and how...

  Greg Shatan 2:We need to identify the vectors first.

  Robin Gross:we should be discussing things like transparency, representativeness, etc.

  Tatiana Tropina:+1 Robin

  Robin Gross:For example, does a SOAC have a responsibility to be transparent beyond its members?

  Greg Shatan 2:Robin, that's another vector "What are SOACs accountable for?"

  Kavouss Arasteh:plse let the speaker finishes its intervention

  Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG] 2:@Robin -- that was the focus of what I presented on our first call, and the Lightning Talk in Helsinki.   Just getting that started



  willie currie:Sure that's fine, Cheryl.

  Farzaneh Badii:Robin, our other task is Develop a detailed working plan on enhancing Supporting Organization and Advisory Committee accountability. I think your  questions should be discussed there. we have taken note of the suggestion to not start with MAR

  Farzaneh Badii:Thanks Willie

  Julf Helsingius (GNSO NCPH NCA):Thank you all!

  Farzaneh Badii:bye all

  Mary Uduma:Bye All

  Tatiana Tropina:thanks all

  Avri Doria:bye y'all

  Olga Cavalli:by all thanks

  Sebastien (ALAC):thanks

  Greg Shatan 2:By all

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