Sub-group Members:   Andrew Mack, Avri Doria, Bastiaan Goslings, Chris LaHatte, Daniel Appelman, David McAuley, Elizabeth Andrews, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Hibah Hussain, Isabel Rutherfurd, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Lousewies van der Laan, Matthew Shears, Nathalie Coupet, Niels ten Oever, Nigel Roberts, Paloma Szerman,  Pär Brumark, Paul McGrady,  Rachel Pollack, Robin Gross, Ron da Silva, Rudi Daniel, Samantha Eisner, Steve Metalitz, Tatiana Tropina, Taylor Bentley, Tijani Ben Jemaa

Staff:  Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry

Apologies:  Paul Twomey

**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**




1. Administrivia

2. Discussion on: the Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1 [0]

3. Discussion on: Concerns on possible impacts of Human Rights bylaw and FoI [1]

4. Discussion on working tools of the Design Team (Wiki, mailinglist, Github, Google Docs, Etherpads, etc)

5. AOB


1. Administrivia

2. Discussion on: the Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1 [0]

  • Tatiana and Greg walk through of the first Google document - Summary of WS1 (WP4) discussion on Human Rights 1st draft
  • Greg Shatan: ICANN will enforce their contracts -- but I don't believe there are requirements relating to human rights (beyond "applicable law' provisions).
  • Nigel: Disagree. Because human rights conventions are not applicable to ICANN as it's not a state actor
  • jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): as for the meaning and effect of article 4 about international law and HR: perhaps an analysis of IRP decisions (and maybe 
    other instances as well) could be warranted, in order to have a clear picture as to what extent HR (based on current article 4 of the Articles of Incorporation) have already been applied?
  • Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Ruggie principles state that business (ie. ICANN) should "not contribute to" human rights abuses.  (See page 21.)  Of course for 
    some, this may conflict with what they see as their free speech rights.  For example, the Hague Criminal Court had testimony yesterday from the perpetrator of 
    crimes of destruction of cultural property in Mali.  This destruction resulted from ISIL occupation and its statement against the culture in Mali that it viewed as 
    heretical.  These videos are accessible on certain Internet sites.  If ICANN permits sites to be used to show destruction of cultural property - or in a more extreme 
    case, to permit authorized Internet urls to be used to display beheadings, is ICANN contributing to human rights violations and failing to respect Human Rights?
  • Niels ten Oever 2: Hi Anne - I think representation on an act and an act is a very different thing. 
  • Nigel: Moreover, respect for human rihghts involve a positive oblgation to carry out the balancing act between several rights that are engaged.
  • Nigel: e.g. free expression versus right to property
  • DavidMcAuley: In WS1 we agreed to punt on enforcement.
  • Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): @Niels -I am not sure what you mean by "representation on an act".  But I agree that respecting Human Rights necessarily 
    involves a balancing act.  It may also be case-by-case.
  • Tatiana Tropina: I think what we are discussing now is actually the FoI issues - and good that we have transcripts. I also would like to offer - anyone - 
    please - go to the concerns document, it still is in the drafting process (in its very inception) and do list your concerns .
  • Niels ten Oever 2: @Anne - Destruction of buildings is not by far the same as showing videos of destruction. On this topic, also see the Manilla Principles.
  • Farzaneh Badii: enforcement question.
  • Tatiana Tropina: Enforcement in this document is about external enforcement. Internal enforcement is a valid point for future discussion.
  • Paul McGrady: Problem of defining Respect and it being punted to WS2. did this get into constituencies etc.
  • Tatiana Tropina: It was more of a policy discussion and drawing border between Respect and Protection.
  • David McAuley: I recall the discussions around respect being about ICANN the organization rather than the commmunity.
  • Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Is providing in the Registry Agreement that ICANN can direct the Registry to takedown any website that is clearly demonstrated  
    or purposed toward Human Rights violations  (e.g. sex trafficing of minors website) a matter of "external enforcment" or a matter of action 
    taken to avoid contributing to Human Rights abuses?  If ICANN supports policies that prevent law enforcement from getting to the perpetrators, then those 
    policies would be contributing to Human Rights abuses.  Or does ICANN say, "not my problem - out of scope".  Good luck finding these people.  We think it's fine 
    if their location and contact information is  completely private.
  • Kavouss Arateh: meeting badly organized.
  • David McAuley: We never really delved into respect neiter did we go beyond ICANN the organization.
  • Greg Shatan: There was some discussion of Respect in WS1.
  • Niels Ten Oever: One more week to work on the document. (Several green Ticks and no comments).. Everyone is invited to contribute tot he document.

3. Discussion on: Concerns on possible impacts of Human Rights bylaw and FoI [1]

  • Niels Ten Oever: Paul Twomey is not on this call and will ask him and TT to work on this document over the coming week. I would also invite everyone to contribute to this if they have input.
  • Kavouss Arasteh: general disagreement with process and activities. NTO: explanation of process.
  • Ron da Silva: Board Concerns? These were well captured in the document. Unaware of any additional concerns vs those from WS1.
  • Jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): CHAT - apart from concerns that the HR commitment would go "too far", we should also be careful in not weakening 
    the current level of commitment according especially to article IV of the AoI
  • Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC) CHAT: This was a concern I expressed earlier - being bound to Article 4 without a Framework of Interpretation.
  • jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): I would see that analysis  (of the current level of commitment under current AoI and Bylaws) either as a staff supported 
    endeavour or as a collective effort... not sure whether Lee could cope with it - I'm a bit reluctant to speak on his behalf :-S
  • Tijani Ben Jemaa: we have to go forward with our narrow mission of creating an FOI - we should not add to our scope.
  • Andrew Mack: here here Tijani.  less is more -- it will be challenge enough as a limited mandate
  • David McAuley: Good reminder, thanks Tijani
  • Tatiana Tropina: We agreed during the WS1 that we can not say whether Art 4 of AoI creates the obligation because HR instruments are mostly for the states 
  • Niels Ten Oever:  good point TBJ. I will draft a frame of this document to get us started next week.
  • Kavous Arasteh: Discussion of what is the FOI?
  • Niels Ten Oever:  Annex 6 of the CCWG report describes this quite well and provides some examples.

4. Discussion on working tools of the Design Team (Wiki, mailinglist, Github, Google Docs, Etherpads, etc)

  • Niels Ten Oever: Problems with Googledocs - the only tools for collaborative working on text is Etherpad and Googledocs. Googledocs has more functionality 
    so we will keep using it for now. If you have further comments on this please provide them on the list.
  • Tijani Ben Jemaa: Let us use what ICANN provides so everyone can contribute. The Wiki works well.
  • Niels Ten Oever: lets take this to the list.

5. AOB

  • Neils Ten Oever: adjourned.

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

  Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to the Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #2 on 23 August @ 19:00 UTC!

  John Laprise:Good afternoon

  Tatiana Tropina:hi all

  Farzaneh Badii:Hi

  Paloma Szerman:Hello everyone from Argentina

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue):Hi all!

  David McAuley:sorry to be late

  Niels ten Oever:Hello all

  Tatiana Tropina:we haven't started yet, David :)

  David McAuley:Brenda, I am 8222

  David McAuley:Thanks Tatiana

  Greg Shatan:Hello all from sunny (and finally not boiling hot) New York City!

  Tatiana Tropina:Oh I forgot about colour fonts!

  matthew shears:hello from boiling west sussex uk

  David McAuley:I did not add much to the doc

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg I suggest you start

  Tatiana Tropina:I want to note that the end of the document is still "work in progress" but I hope we will finalise the document soon

  Nigel:No complaint from Kavouss?

  Nigel:We need to be somewhat cautious. 'Respect' is a term-of-art in human rights

  Niels ten Oever 2:Taken largely from the Ruggie framework / UN Guiding Principles for Human Rights

  Tatiana Tropina:THis is why the defintion of "respect" obligation has been left for the Ws2

  Niels ten Oever 2:*UN Guiding Principles for Business and Human Rights

  Tatiana Tropina:Niels, I think we had a big discussion whether this term actually refers to Ruggie or UDHR and we decided that it's more of a general term

  Niels ten Oever 2:Agreed - but if one needs to trace back - this is a HR terms of art that was coined by John Ruggie, right?

  Tatiana Tropina:I still remember how we all crossed the swords when some of us said that "respect" is a direct difference to Ruggie :)

  Nigel:We must be cautious nott to reuse words in different senses to that understood outside .. its ripe territory for miscontstruciotn

  Brenda Brewer:Hi all, catching up....thank you David for identifying your phone number.  If others would be so kind to identify your phone number above if listed, I would so appreciate it!

  Tatiana Tropina:"Respect" is used in many documents on human rights. not only in Ruggie

  Nigel:I'm not referrint to Ruggie, but it predates them.

  Farzaneh Badii:so we need to clarify what "respect" means in this context.

  Farzaneh Badii:do we have a core jobs list?

  Tatiana Tropina:I think there is a transcript on discussion we had, we really had almost a whole call where we discussed concerns about using this term. I think when we will be tidying up the document I will go to the records and transcripts, it's an important issue

  Daniel Appelman:"Not enforce or protect"--ICANN has contracts with registries and registrars.  One would hope to be able to enforce those contracts with regard to insisting on some level of compliance with human rights.

  David McAuley:And the term "respecting" is in the bylaw

  Tatiana Tropina:Farzy, yes, actually the starting point is the Aneex 6, it outlines what we have to do in Ws2

  David McAuley:Thanks Greg, good summary

  Rachel Pollack:yes

  Niels ten Oever 2:We hear you


  Greg Shatan:ICANN will enforce their contracts -- but I don't believe there are requirements relating to human rights (beyond "applicable law' provisions).

  Nigel:Disagree. Because human rights conventions are not applicable to ICANN as it's not a state actor

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):as for the meaning and effect of article 4 about international law and HR: perhaps an analysis of IRP decisions (and maybe other instances as well) could be warranted, in order to have a clear picture as to what extent HR (based on current article 4 of the Articles of Incorporation) have already been applied?

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Ruggie principles state that business (ie. ICANN) should "not contribute to" human rights abuses.  (See page 21.)  Of course for some, this may conflict with what they see as their free speech rights.  For example, the Hague Criminal Court had testimony yesterday from the perpetrator of crimes of destruction of cultural property in Mali.  This destruction resulted from ISIL occupation and its statement against the culture in Mali that it viewed as heretical.  These videos are accessible on certain Internet sites.  If ICANN permits sites to be used to show destruction of cultural property - or in a more extreme case, to permit authorized Internet urls to be used to display beheadings, is ICANN contributing to human rights violations and failing to respect Human Rights?

  matthew shears:no

  Niels ten Oever 2:Hi Anne - I think representation on an act and an act is a very different thing.

  Nigel:Moreover, respect for human rihghts involve a positive oblgation to carry out the balancing act between several rights that are engaged.

  Nigel:e.g. free expression versus right to property

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):apart from starting with annex 6 (specific to HR) we should not forget about annex 12 where we established the ws2 lines of work and described what we intended to debate,  including on HR and its FOI

  Nigel:or free expression v right to private and family life

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Niels -I am not sure what you mean by "representation on an act".  But I agree that respecting Human Rights necessarily involves a balancing act.  It may also be case-by-case.

  Kavouss Arasteh:Brenda

  Kavouss Arasteh:I am disconnectzed

  Tatiana Tropina:I think what we are discussing now is actually the FoI issues - and good that we have transcripts. I also would like to offer - anyone - please - go to the concerns document, it still is in the drafting process (in its very inception) and do list your concerns

  Kavouss Arasteh:Dear Brenda

  Brenda Brewer:will callyou back Kavouss

  Kavouss Arasteh:I have been interrupted

  Kavouss Arasteh:Pls dial me again

  Niels ten Oever 2:@Anne - Destruction of buildings is not by far the same as showing videos of destruction. On this topic, also see the Manilla Principles.

  David McAuley:I don't agree - I think internal enforcement is open to debate in this group.

  Tatiana Tropina:I can answer

  Tatiana Tropina:Agree with David

  David McAuley:sorry Farzaneh, i thought it was statement

  Andrew Mack:absolutely agree -- we need to define who we're talking about

  David McAuley:I recall the discussions around respect being about ICANN the organization rather than the commmunity

  Tatiana Tropina:can cover this

  Andrew Mack:"ICANN" can mean many things to different audiences

  Farzaneh Badii:that's true Andrew

  matthew shears:agree David

  Brenda Brewer:phone number ending with 1077 belongs to whom please?

  Paul McGrady:Tatiana - thank you for this great background information!  Much appreciated.

  Farzaneh Badii:can we pick the cherries internally ?

  Brenda Brewer:phone number ending with 0700 belongs to whom please?

  Brenda Brewer:phone number ending with 7014 belongs to whom please?

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Is providing in the Registry Agreement that ICANN can direct the Registry to takedown any website that is clearly demonstrated  or purposed toward Human Rights violations  (e.g. sex trafficing of minors website) a matter of "external enforcment" or a matter of action taken to avoid contributing to Human Rights abuses?  If ICANN supports policies that prevent law enforcement from getting to the perpetrators, then those policies would be contributing to Human Rights abuses.  Or does ICANN say, "not my problem - out of scope".  Good luck finding these people.  We think it's fine if their location and contact information is  completely private.

  Farzaneh Badii:I think what we are discussing is quite real

  Tatiana Tropina:I think what we are discussing is basically "recap" - we have new people in the group and without being on the same page re where we are it's hard to move on

  Paul McGrady:Thanks David.  Very helpful.

  Chris LaHatte:when I was the Ombuds I came across a number of issues like this. I had no power to intervene, but perhaps there should be someone with such power. it's not a theoretical problem, but real

  Bastiaan Goslings:Thanks Tatiana - for me as a newbie the discussion -and the doc- is very valuable

  Tatiana Tropina:would anyone mind if I will pick up some of the discussions from this chat and (with attribution to the transcript" out them into the "concerns" document (whuch is still work in progress)?

  Tatiana Tropina:Thanks Greg and David - and sorry that I took this over!

  Paul McGrady:Very well explained.  Thank you all.

  Tatiana Tropina:at least happy to hear that we are on the same page re our recollections of what happened

  David McAuley:Thanks Paul

  Greg Shatan:Tatiana, nothing to apologize for IMHO.

  David McAuley:+1 Greg, thank you Tatiana

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, except voluntolding you to the doc :))))

  Greg Shatan:For that, I forgive you. :-)

  Paul McGrady:Agree to this process.  It is a great way to get us new folks up to speed.

  Tatiana Tropina:It's a doc in progress!

  matthew shears:yes, much appreciated

  Tatiana Tropina:no, was concentrated on the first doc.

  John Laprise:the latter rather than the former

  Tatiana Tropina:I can't speak more, you have to give the floor to others.

  Tatiana Tropina:I will come back to the group on the list. The discussions on this chat would have added a lot to the document. So again - a plea to contribute. Or just drop me a line on the list if ou don't want to add directly ot the doc

  Tatiana Tropina:*to

  Tatiana Tropina:a week of work, Niels

  matthew shears:yes, work and contemplation

  John Laprise:I added already but am in a loud environment and cannot speak

  David McAuley:a week of work and perhaps more insights from Paul Twomey

  Tatiana Tropina:I assume this person is me

  John Laprise:

  Lousewies van der Laan:Niels, my connection keeps dropping, but I'll pass your request on to the board

  Tatiana Tropina:page: 42

  Tatiana Tropina:sorry for insensitive reference

  David McAuley:I recall the board's concerns as ststaed in WS1 were very clear

  David McAuley:stated

  Tatiana Tropina:I can go through transcripts and emails

  Tatiana Tropina:it was all at the end of the work

  Tatiana Tropina:yes, sure.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):apart from concerns that the HR commitment would go "too far", we should also be careful in not weakening the current level of commitment according especially to article IV of the AoI

  Tatiana Tropina:we are not really sure to which extent the art IV covers the HR

  Tatiana Tropina:and whether it actually creates obligations for the ICANN in this regard

  Tatiana Tropina:but agree that the commitment shall not be watered down significantly

  Greg Shatan:There was a fair amount of "dialogue" with the Board on this point, if I recall correctly.

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):This was a concern I expressed earlier - being bound to Article 4 without a Framework of Interpretation.

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:Note: we have 10  minutes to the top of the hour

  Niels ten Oever 2:Thanks Bernard, noted.

  Chris LaHatte:and who looks at breaches of HR?

  Tatiana Tropina:I lowered my hand - wanted to answer Jorge but think it's too much time

  Tatiana Tropina:Jorge, can we take this discussion on the list?

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):I would see that analysis  (of the current level of commitment under current AoI and Bylaws) either as a staff supported endeavour or as a collective effort... not sure whether Lee could cope with it - I'm a bit reluctant to speak on his behalf :-S

  Andrew Mack:here here Tijani.  less is more -- it will be challenge enough as a limited mandate

  Andrew Mack:hear hear, actually, right?

  David McAuley:Good reminder, thanks Tijani

  Tatiana Tropina:We agreed during the WS1 that we can not say whether Art 4 of AoI creates the obligation because HR instruments are mostly for the states

  Farzaneh Badii:but based on annex 6 we have other missions than coming up with FOI

  Tatiana Tropina:I hope the "concerns" document is considered as moving forward :)

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):agree with Niels on this third doc

  Tatiana Tropina:Agree with the 3rd doc too

  Andrew Mack:sorry, now I'm confused.  which doc is the 3rd one?

  Farzaneh Badii:other activities ... to use the annex "term"

  Farzaneh Badii:FOI Andrew

  Niels ten Oever 2:3rd document = Draft FoI document

  Tatiana Tropina:Rather brainstorming

  Tatiana Tropina:I assume. At least on this stage (not page!)

  Tatiana Tropina:Google DOCS!

  Farzaneh Badii:noooo etherpad

  Tatiana Tropina:I won't sign up for anything will lower functionality.

  Farzaneh Badii:nooooo . it is against human rights to use etherpad . (spelling ...)

  Tatiana Tropina:Farzy, yes

  Tatiana Tropina:Google docs only. Niels please.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):is this the commerciales? :P

  Tatiana Tropina:we are volunteers we need functionality, I don't want to fight with etherpad - enough problems in my life

  Tatiana Tropina:I can't volunteer on etherpad.

  Tatiana Tropina:Wiki shall be updated by the chairs

  Tatiana Tropina:For the drafting process it shall be google doc.

  John Laprise:apologies: I need to run to another meeting

  Farzaneh Badii:ICANN itself does not use its own tools sometimes

  Andrew Mack:also need to run.  thank you all

  Farzaneh Badii:other tools are not as functional

  Tatiana Tropina:Exactly. I can't suffer and spend my precious volunteer time on tools that give me less productivity

  Paul McGrady:Great call today!  I greatly appreciate that the brisk pace at which we are moving doesn't preclude time being set aside to answer some of (my) basic questions.  Thanks everyone.

  David McAuley:Thank you Niels, Nigel, staff and all

  Tatiana Tropina:thanks all!

  Farzaneh Badii:thanks

  Farzaneh Badii:good bye

  Greg Shatan:Bye all!

  Nathalie Coupet:bye

  Bastiaan Goslings:thamks all!

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):thank you all and good night (in Europe)!

  matthew shears:bye

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