Members: Avri Doria, Donna Austin, Eduardo Diaz, Elise Lindeberg, Fatima Cambronero, Greg Shatan, Jaap Akkerhuis, Jonathan Robinson, Lise Fuhr, Olivier Crepin-Leblond, Paul Kane, Robert Guerra, Seun Ojedeji, Wanawit Ahkuputra (14)
Participants: Alan Greenberg, Alissa Cooper, Allan MacGillivray, Amr Elsadr, Andrew Sullivan, Brenden Kuerbis, Carolina Aguerre, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christopher Wilkinson, Chuck Gomes, Desiree Miloshevic, Gary Campbell, Gary Hunt, Guru Acharya, John Poole, Jorge Cancio, Keith Davidson, Kurt Pritz, Mary Uduma, Matthew Shears, Milton Mueller, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy, Stephanie Duchesneau, Tony Holmes, Wale Bakare, Wolf-Ulrich Knoben, Yasuichi Kitamura (27)
Staff: Alice Jansen, Bart Boswinkel, Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Grace Abuhamad, Marika Konings
Apologies: Graeme Bunton; Martin Boyle
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Proposed Agenda 24/2:
1. Opening Remarks
2. Finalization of Work Methods
3. Integrated Model
4. Discussion on Proposed Design Teams
6. Closing Remarks
Committed to a refreshed approach
Bernie has been developing a version 2.0 draft:
1. can be used as a map
2. compared to other proposals
3. can be used as a backbone to hang incremental progress (such as work of the Design Teams)
Finalization of Work Methods
- Meet twice per week as CWG (as much substance as possible)
- 3 meeting slots for Design Teams: https://community.icann.org/display/gnsocwgdtstwrdshp/Sign+Up+Meeting+Slots
- Role of Chairs in Design Teams: coordinate and manage the fact that DTs are not all running at the same time and that there are not too many people in one DT, etc.
Presented by Avri Doria
- Idea started at ICANN52
- Wanted to preserve what is most important about IANA as we know it (continuity).
- Didn't expect to build another model, was looking for compromise points (but it turned into another model)
- There is a degree of separation in all of them (today this exists too -- the IANA team is functionally separate)
- Included notion of a community Board including all three operational commnities (sort of a "MRT plus" because accountable to greater community)
- Community Board is an accountability anchor (includes other operational communities)
- This model would make IANA one degree further of separation from what currently exists with GDD
- Model proposers advocate for the model, but have flexibility with the variants. Preference for shared services model.
- Andrew Sullivan: Subsidiary approach is most doable in this year's timeframe
- Elise Lindeberg: Possibility for separation of IANA: how can this be done in this model? Response (Avri Doria): can be done but would require a process (initiated by ICANN or Community Board)
- Milton Mueller: not sure I understand how separability works. Response (Avri Doria): there are different degrees of separation already today
- IAP is something that still hasn't been worked on
- Alissa Cooper: The whole discussion about additional involvement from the IETF/RIRs in oversight seems like a distraction from trying to solve the core issue of contention before this group, which is where the oversight of the names function will end up on the internal-to-external spectrum.
Integrated Model Related Links
- The Integrated Model Description: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SvKDEIaeHdre3BQXHNe1K3hCA95dsFWqWAz2Kg5YZCU/edit?usp=sharing
- Discussion of accountability in the model: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cKpQ3lenL8Gt6qT6r7JRePlujXp9_xM0c1SlrTFFW90/edit?usp=sharing
- Post Transition IANA Community Board discussion: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SwtczN5HzlC5m-IogNQWezDl2sKIHc82ysRnn9yT56Q/edit?usp=sharing
Recap by Chairs
- Favoring of the subsidiary model;
- Lots of mention of accountability (coordination there)
- IAP needs to be further developed
Discussion of Proposed Design Teams
Some ideas that have been discussed:
- Service Levels
Action (Donna Austin) Need list of names for Service Levels Design Team
Action (Paul Kane): proposal needed for Service Levels DT
Action (Allan MacGillivray) submit proposal for IAP
- Propose to have a "funnel" or list of potential Design Teams, but we'll start with 3 and record the rest for future work
- Proposals must be submitted on CWG mailing list but the Chairs are to review
- A liaison from / to the ICANN board: will not develop the idea at this advanced stage of the CWG
- Timetable including F2F meeting in one month: will be producing a fresh version soon. The F2F meeting will take place in Istanbul on 26-27 March.
- Note: Standards of behaviour, tone of discussions: please keep things civil on list. Depending on how you participate, it may limit how robustly you may respond; please be mindful of that
- RFP subgroups: We will no longer run the RFP sub groups. Will meet as committees of the whole instead. RFP coordinators will continue to be relied on for support.
Thank you Avri and colleagues for substantive meeting
Next meeting is on Thursday 26 February at 11:00 UTC
Action (Donna Austin) Need list of names for Service Levels Design Team
Action (Paul Kane): proposal needed for Service Levels DT
Action (Allan MacGillivray) submit proposal for IAP
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p5dy582a0lj/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-cwg-iana-24feb15-en.mp3
Brenda Brewer:Welcome All to the CWG IANA call on Tuesday, 24 February.
Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):hi, all
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:good day all
Andrew Sullivan:Hi. I've foined the call
Robert Guerra:Hi all
Lise Fuhr:Hello all
Jaap akkerhuis (SSAC):Good evening
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Hello all
jorge cancio:hi all
Keith (ccnso):Hi all
Gary Hunt UK Govt.:Good evening (UK time anyway!)...
Greg Shatan:Hi noon.
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Hello all
Grace Abuhamad:the document has scroll control for all
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Thx Grace
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Page 6 is the Shared Services Arrangement Avri is referring to currently.
matthew shears:the diagrams at the end of the presentation are more clear than the rough drawing up front
Grace Abuhamad:Avri do you want me to upload those?
Grace Abuhamad:The links are here: Discussion of accountability in the model: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cKpQ3lenL8Gt6qT6r7JRePlujXp9_xM0c1SlrTFFW90/edit?usp=sharingPost Transition IANA Community Board discussion: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SwtczN5HzlC5m-IogNQWezDl2sKIHc82ysRnn9yT56Q/edit?usp=sharing
Jonathan Robinson:Participants can scroll the document to see other content including diagrams
matthew shears:thanks Avri!
Mary Uduma:Thanks Avri
matthew shears:yes the shared services model
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Yes, SSA seems the most likely to gain supprt IMO
Eduardo Diaz - (ALAC):I read somewhere that the IETF did not want to get into a shared arrangement
matthew shears:we have not cavassed formally either the IETF or the RIRs
matthew shears:but have spoken to some individually
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Andrew: other than the counterparty changing, what issues arise given its the same IANA department?
Alan Greenberg:Cannot hear.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:can you recap Elise comments please
jorge cancio:the three communities are just the three operational communities or would they go beyond that?
Andrew Sullivan:@Brenden: I don't think I fully understand the question. To set up a shared services arrangement among ICANN, IETF, and RIRs, you have to set up a completely new legal agreement
Andrew Sullivan:That seems to me to be something of a significant amount of work. Step 0 would be, "Convince the other orgs to get involved"
matthew shears:we have not prescribed how the board seats would be determined but rather left it to teach community to detemine their representation
Andrew Sullivan:It's not obvious that, e.g. IETF wants to join this kind of arrangement in the first place
Andrew Sullivan:My point is that the subsidiary org could be done independently by ICANN
Milton Mueller:Andrew: but not also obvious that they dont
Donna Austin, RySG:@Andrew, if the subsidiary org is done independently, doesn't that then fit this solution into the 'external' to icann category?
Andrew Sullivan:I actually don't care whether we call it internal, external, or Bob the Wonder Dog. I am interested in something that will provide a structure that achieves the goal
Andrew Sullivan:It seems to me that there are many people who want a clear delineation between the pilicy function and the implementers of that
Andrew Sullivan:I think that a wholly-owned subsidiary that did the operational work would be good
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Under the SSA, it is org wholly owned and directly accountable to the policy authorities via the Community Board
Andrew Sullivan:(Not required, from my POV, but one nice way to do it.) The key thing in my own view is that anything that requires tight co-ordination among the three communities is not going to be successful
Andrew Sullivan:there are _lots_ of people around the IETF who do not want a tight relationship to ICANN, and I think that negotiation would be hard to undertake
Christopher Wilk:ISOC would have to carry the can for IETF, as they do already elsewhere. CW
Milton Mueller:I understand this avoidance of tight coupling, however isnt it also true that keeping IANA inside ICANN involves a form of tightness for all the other operational communities?
Andrew Sullivan:@Christopher: I don't understand that claim. The IETF has mechanisms to appoint (e.g.) its current liaison to the ICANN board.
Milton Mueller:in other words, seating people on a board with ICANN and having shared governance of IANA is actually more arm length than current arrangements from one perspective
Andrew Sullivan:it doesn't involve ISOC
Andrew Sullivan:"shared governance of IANA" involves us in IANA-facing disputes from the names community
Andrew Sullivan:Whereas if we mantain the status quo for protocol parameters, we don't have that problem. It's an ICANN-PTIANA problem
matthew shears:CSC has the SLA day to day management for namesw community customers in the model
Milton Mueller:Andrew, I don't see how it involves IETF in disputes from the names community, it would merely allow for cross-community issues (e.g. reserved names) to be coordinated more readily. what kind of disputes are you talking about ?
Brenden Kuerbis 2:@Andrew, not sure that would be a problem if IANA remains completely implementation, but perhaps IETF would be beneficial objective voice in those situations.
Andrew Sullivan:@Milton: I'm not sure what disputes; there seems to be a lot of worry about accountability around here where
Andrew Sullivan:AFAICT the IANA doesn't have accountability problems -- th probs are all on the policy side
Seun Ojedeji:can you hear me
Andrew Sullivan:The reserved-names case is a good example: that seems like a policy co-ordination problem
Grace Abuhamad:No, are you muted on your end
Milton Mueller:@andrew but IANA has been subject to NTIA oversight. it is not logical or not good institutional design to say that because there were few accountability problems with NTIA oversight that there will be no problems without that oversight
Seun Ojedeji:i am not @Grace
Grace Abuhamad:I'm am not sure what the issue is then Seun. We see your line as open... Can you work with Brenda to perhaps be redialed?
Andrew Sullivan:The IANA co-ordination problem is a straightforward registry collision. I agree that there is oversight that is necessary. I just haven't seen a clear threat model that tells me what we're trying to defend against
matthew shears:the model asks more of the ietf and RIRs than just a cusmtomer role but we flet it important to discuss here
Andrew Sullivan:I understand why it asks more of those other communities. I'm just trying to understand why we'd do it.
Andrew Sullivan:That is, I get what's in it for names. I don't get what's in it for anyone else.
Alissa Cooper:The whole discussion about additional involvement from the IETF/RIRs in oversight seems like a distraction from trying to solve the core issue of contention before this group, which is where the oversight of the names function will end up on the internal-to-external spectrum.
Milton Mueller:@Andrew - it extracts IANA functions from entanglement with DNS policy
Sivasubramanian M:Thank you Avri. On your answer to the second question, I got the impression that you were viewing CSC more as a Customer Support function, to be given imporrance. CSC as we have discusssed in the proposals is more of a Customer Access ( or oversight by Customers ) concept. The nature of IANA fucntions is such that the impact of IANA functionality is significant on its Customers. So, with the required privileges for interface WITH FUNCTIONAL and Executive STAFF, Customer Standing Committee could be positioned as a highly privileged Cusstomer Committee, but not as part of the hierarchy, but on the other side of the table, or somewehere along the IETF / RIR overssight, somewhat detached as in the Subsidiary model.
Seun Ojedeji:okay since mic is not working i will post my questions here
Andrew Sullivan:@Milton: but you could get that in the more modest suggestion I made on list. I agree wit Alissa as well.
Milton Mueller:@Alissa agree, but they are related because the more external you get the more it makes sense to have an independent IANA board, and an independent IANA board should probably involve numbers and protoclls
Seun Ojedeji:- The ICANN in subsidiary version is what SO/AC?
Seun Ojedeji:- Considering ICANN is signatory to all existing contracts/agreement what level of oversight does ICANN board have on community board?
Seun Ojedeji:- How does "community board" handle IANA staff i.e does it for instance escalate to ICANN management who employs or sacks a staff?
Seun Ojedeji:- Can the seperation intent in the subsidiary version be maintained without need for community board?If there is a name specific issue how does the community board decide on that?
Milton Mueller:Jonathan: subsidiaries can have independently appointed boards.
Christopher Wilk:Correct: the communities appoint the IANA Council/Board.
Alissa Cooper:@Milton, that seems like a detail to be worked out after determining whether there is support even just among names stakeholders for the independent board, not the central issue to discuss before that is clear.
Milton Mueller:@Alissa Yes, but Andrew brought it up
Wale Bakare:I think, the proposed model without IETF and RIR, the protocol parameters and numbers may render name proposal one sided
Milton Mueller:cant hear her
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Can Elise speak louder please?
matthew shears:we have noted in the text that the community board can have more tha the operational communities represneted
Alan Greenberg:No idea what Elise is saying. Can someone please summarize?
Sivasubramanian M:Elise please repeat, louder please
jorge cancio 2:in the end if the new IANA Board ony represents operational communities it would difficult to understand where the role and voice of governments is placed
Donna Austin, RySG:so at a minimum a 9 member board?
Milton Mueller:Jorge: As IANA does not make policy, it is not clear what you mean by "voice"?
Eduardo Diaz - (ALAC):@Jorge: multistakeholder should include having other interested parties involved
Milton Mueller:Also, govts or govt-owned ccTLDs could be part of the ICANN contingent on the board of IANA
matthew shears:understood elise and thanks
Grace Abuhamad:Yes Seun we can hear you
Seun Ojedeji:thanks Grace
matthew shears:yes, we welcome thoughts comments suggestions
jorge cancio 2:I guess this will need to be discussed - in order to obtain a balanced multistakeholder representation as Avri just said
Brenden Kuerbis 2:To recap Avri, perhaps a MRT (with participation of government stakeholders) within ICANN could select representatives to a Community Board of indepdent IANA entity. Up to each community and their multistakehodler mechanisms.
Andrew Sullivan:on this "accountability" argument, it seems to me that if people actually thought that sort of diversity were important then the PTI board could just appoint people of those diverse backgrounds
Andrew Sullivan:s/PTI board could just appoint/people could just appoint to PTI board. Sorry for misstatement.
Milton Mueller:@Andrew agree, but also agree with Alissa that we should settle on level of external before those questions become relevant
Donna Austin, RySG:I think once we get into discussion about the Board composition we start down the same road of discussions we've had about the MRT. Once the Board expands to make a place for everyone the risk of mission creep increases. I appreciate this may remove the need for a Contract Co, but I am not so sure that it brings us any closer on the other points. Adding the IEFT and the RIRs to the mix only has the potential to make it more complicated.
Milton Mueller:Donna: My understanding is that the names part of the PTIANA board would be appointed exclusively by the names community
Brenden Kuerbis 2:That was our assumption
Seun Ojedeji:- The ICANN in subsidiary is what SO/AC? - Considering ICANN is signatory to all existing contracts/agreement what level of oversight does ICANN board have on community board?- How does "community board" handle IANA staff i.e does it for instance escalate to ICANN management who employs or sacks a staff? - Can the seperation intent in the subsidiary version be maintained without need for community board? - If there is a name specific issue how does the community board decide on that?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:THANK YOU @Avri, Brendan & Matthew
Milton Mueller:Jonathan, how did you get that?
Elise Lindeberg:honestly - I have a hard time understanding how this bring us further on separaility ...
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Actually, Jonathan many serious questions about the viability of the subsidiary model were raised.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Thanks @Avri, Matthew & Brendan - very interesting proposals
Paul Kane:Evening all
Milton Mueller:Elise: all variants involve structural separation of the IANA
Carolina Aguerre:@Cheryl +1
Christopher Wilk:Agree with Jonathan's summary to date. CW
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I must admit I personally feel warmer to this proposed model than the external Contract Co. model.
Elise Lindeberg:structual is one thing - total separability in the end another
Mary Uduma:Great job Avri, Brendan and Mathew. Some meeting points here for the work of CWG
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Agree TOTALLY there @Olivier
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Glad we could help move the debate foward, happy to have more feedback on list.
Alan Greenberg:Paul has faded
Avri Doria:BTW, I am willing, as I am sure my partners in the effort are, to engage in follow on discussions with people who have more questions.
Paul Kane:Wonderful - thanks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:great @Donna :-)
Paul Kane:Will do our best
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):am getting an echo
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):will type
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):i only have one line open
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:usually it's the audio picking up the sound from the computer's speaker
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):my question is whether escalation path and SLAs are being addressed as the part of a single design team or as separate ones
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):makes sense to me - thanks jonathan
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Gree with CSC and IAP as DT focusses for next couple of weeks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:along with SLAs
Kurt Pritz:The authorization function is 99% of the NTIA oversight task; it needs a replacement
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Agree @ Kurt but is it 1st cab off the rank?
Greg Shatan:CSC and IAP were heavily discussed and progressed in RFP3, so there's already a lot to work with.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:still needs a DT @Greg
Greg Shatan:Yes, @Cheryl, but to pick up where left off, not to reinvent wheel.
Donna Austin, RySG:@Jonathan, I'm willing to be involved in the CSC scoping.
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):could moving too far on IAP bar possible integration with mechanisms being discussed by the CCWG Accountability?
Allan MacGillivray:I would be willing to get involved in the IAP.
Greg Shatan:I will volunteer for CSC and IAP teams.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:then we agre with the 1st priority of them @Greg
Kurt Pritz:An authorization replacement is required in the rare event that there is governmental or public protest to a legitimate change. The replacement’s most important role will be to approve legitimate changes despite pressure to do otherwise. The root zone change management role is relatively simple and easy to accomplish. The benefit the USG has provided is to act as a backstop to IANA decisions when there is controversy. A replacement dedicated to the multi-stakeholder approach is the best model for retaining the backstop.
Greg Shatan:I think the first question for IAP is scope.
Alan Greenberg:For the IAP, a key issue is WHAT are the Appeals about?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:indeed @Alan
Greg Shatan:We 3 are in violent agreement.
Greg Shatan:I can be lead on CSC or IAP (but not both...).
Robert Guerra:legacy issues - .INT and perhaps other items ?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Happy to assist in CSC
Alan Greenberg:Other that IANA failing to follow a request from one of its customers, and failing to resolve when it is pointed out, I am not sure there is a lot more to appeal.
Greg Shatan:@Robert, I think that can be in the queue, but there may be nothing to do ti that case.
Greg Shatan:Queue = funnel.
Sivasubramanian M:Greg, It is necessary to define the scope of the IAP, but at the same time, not making the process of definining scope a Limiting process
Greg Shatan:By definition, scope is a limiting process.
Sivasubramanian M:I wish to volunteer for IAP design
Alan Greenberg:I will be offline for a good part of the next 3 weeks, so I am not volunteering at this stage. Sorry.
Greg Shatan:@Alan, some proposals for IAP scope had quite a lot more in mind....
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:there will be plenty on when your back online @Alan
Greg Shatan:your = you're :-)
Alan Greenberg:@Greg, yes, but further discussions either removed them (such as ccTLD redelegation from some ccTLD's perspective) or were actually appeals of things prior to them getting to IANA.
Alan Greenberg:Greg = pedantic! ;-)
Greg Shatan:@Alan -- I hope that is understood by all.
Greg Shatan:@Alan, I will take that as a compliment.
Greg Shatan:Having been employed as a professional proofreader (twice), old habits die hard.
Allan MacGillivray:Jonathan - is it expected that the CWG members would be in Istanbul on the 25
Jaap akkerhuis (SSAC):I 'm afraid I have too manu commitments that week (and already booked non-refundable fligts etc. to Dallas). I'll check for possible replacemants
Grace Abuhamad:Please remember that alternates need to be current partipants of the CWG and be approved by SO/AC
Robert Guerra:meeting coincides with IETF meeting, which is puzzling
Jaap akkerhuis (SSAC):Yup, I noticed that condition
Grace Abuhamad:Thank you @Jaap
Robert Guerra:Jaap & I will coordinate on possible alternate
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:thanks all talk again soon... bye for now
Lise Fuhr:Thank you Avri and Jonathan very productive
Andrew Sullivan:thanks & bye
Mary Uduma:Bye All
Robert Guerra:bye all
Elise Lindeberg:thanks :)
Brenden Kuerbis 2:Thanks all
Wale Bakare:thanks, bye all
Grace Abuhamad:Next meeting is on Thursday 26 February at 11:00 UTC
Jaap akkerhuis (SSAC):bye