Attendees:
Subgroup Members: Avri Doria, Alan Greenberg, Allan MacGillivray, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christopher Wilkinson, Donna Austin, Eduardo Diaz, Elise Lindeberg, Fatima Cambronero, Graeme Bunton, Greg Shatan, Guru Acharya, Jaap Akkerhuis, John Poole, Jonathan Robinson, Kurt Pritz, Maarten Simon, Mary Uduma, Matthew Shears, Milton Mueller, Olivier Crepin-Leblond, Seun Ojedeji, Steve Crocker, Stacey King, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy, Stephanie Duchesneau, Suzanne Woolf, Wanawith Ahkuputra, Paul Kane, Desiree Miloshevic
Staff: Marika Konings, Brenda Brewer, Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb
Apologies: Chris Disspain, David Conrad, Mathieu Weill, Gary Hunt
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Transcript
Recording
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p81nkw51sgt/
The audio recording is available here: https://icann.box.com/shared/static/ow1fa9b1snlyd75ntjug1eewbb70plfg.mp3
Notes
Notes 19/1
Composition (page 2)
- How is the names community defined? Symantic distinction - maybe revert back to 'other MS organizations'?
- CSC focused on direct customers, but with a small number of representatives of other groups/organizations bringing specific expertise to the group (e.g. SSAC, RSSAC).
- Currently customers already review IANA reports and information and report back accordingly. No barriers to issues being raised or brought forward, but focus should be on customers and technical function.
- CSC may not need to meet for more than once every year or every two years
- Functions of CSC should be narrowly focused
- 1 non-customer representative, possibly drawn from MRT (liaison that could also speak on behalf of broader non-customer base?)
- CSC would not be the new authorization function - would meet monthly to have a quick check of reports and if there are any issues, discuss how to resolve these (as currently already happens) by speaking directly to IANA. Only if issues are not resolved would these be escalated to MRT (no ability to interrupt / delay any IANA services).
- Proposal - min of 2 ccTL registry reps/ min of 2 gTLD registry reps, with others able to opt in over time.
How will the member seats on the CSC be allocated?
- By CWG or MRT? Or by registries?
- Registries (gTLD/ccTLD) should allocated registry seats.
- SSAC/RRSAC/MS seats - consider a similar model as used by SSAC? Consider applications based on skills/expertise including peer review.
- Selection process driven by those that have seats on CSC including some form of selection / credentialing.
- Observers should be allowed (e.g. mailing list publicly archived, meeting recordings made available)
- Should ccTLD registry representative seats be allocated by region? - up by each group (gTLD registies/ccTLD registries) to determine how many representatives are needed and whether any geographic diversity is required.
Term length and limits
- Term limit could be aligned with contract cycle - e.g. if term is 5 years, minimum term should be 5 years.
How will decisions be made?
- What would CSC be voting on? Possibly when to escalate something to MRT - but generally it would be expected to be rough consensus driven without any need for votes.
Capture
- Is there anything that this group could do that is beyond its remit? Capture needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. CSC has oversight role, escalation and reporting - what would be there to be captured?
Site visits
- Are part of the current contract - should these be continued by CSC or MRT? Are these still needed?
Action Items: None
Chat Transcript
Marika Konings:Welcome to the RFP3 meeting of 19 January 2015
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:hello
Milton Mueller:Greetings all
Milton Mueller:Happy MLK day
Greg Shatan:Hello, all.
Allan MacGillivray:Hello everyone.
Matthew Shears:evening from Frankfurt
Milton Mueller:Matt, what are you doing there? ;-)
Matthew Shears:keeping Avri and Robin company
Fatima Cambronero:hello everyone
Steve Crocker:Hello, everyone
Milton Mueller:All ICANN all the time
Fatima Cambronero:hello everyone
Sivasubramanian M:Olivier, are you in frankfurt?
Seun:Hi everyone
Seun:I will only be available for the next 30mins... my apologies
Marika Konings:Yes, everyone has scroll control
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Siva - no I am in Switzerland
Alan Greenberg:Is the doc online or was it sent in e-mail?
Grace Abuhamad:In google Docs I think
Grace Abuhamad:I'll find you the link
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):+1 this seems inconsistent with my read as well
Fatima Cambronero:Google Doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kEMsYy6ABffka7G1iONO7VzTRlD4UwB0n05UdV8pAjA/edit
Grace Abuhamad:Thanks Faatima!!!
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):there was support for other technical experts but with a registry focus
Fatima Cambronero:you're welcome :)
Donna Austin, RySG:Agree with Milton.
Matthew Shears:I thought they were going to be liaisons to their respective groups
Elise Lindeberg GAC:Milton - agree, We want to focus om Multistakeholder in MRT
Milton Mueller:Right, we wanted SSAC and RSSAC on there
Elise Lindeberg GAC:I think we are blurring the lines between CSC and MRT
Milton Mueller:RSSAC is in some sense a customer of IANA names
Christopher Wilkinson (CW):Some of us doubt the need for CSC AND MRT.
Paul Kane:Agree with Elise. We need to keep the Customer Group - CUSTOMERS :-)
Donna Austin, RySG:I recall a suggestion by Bernie and Robert during the weekend sessions that technical expertise was key, and Robert suggested an application process similar to the SSAC.
Elise Lindeberg GAC:We need CSC for customers - and by that we need something else for Mulitstakeholder - MRT
Donna Austin, RySG:I really feel we're creating an overly bureacratic beast for what should be a reasonably systematic process as it relates to changes to the Rootzone and WHOIS database.
Milton Mueller:agree, Donna
Elise Lindeberg GAC:one seat - maby..? my focus is to have ONE place for Multistakeholder to dive in
Alan Greenberg:Why do we need to have the same discussion over and over again. If the non-registries actually do the work, they are another set of eyes, and if they don't participate, it doesn't make a difference.
Wanawit Ahkuputra GAC:+1 Elise
Jonathan Robinson:My suggestion during the weekend sessions was to consider MRT as the place for multi-stakeholder and to then view the two in an integrated / wholistic fashion. My personal perspective still leans in that direction.
Avri Doria:we need the et of eye making sure that the policy is properly implemented, even if the registries did not want it to be.
Seun:+1 to paul
Avri Doria:maybe it is becasue i am sitting in an accountabilty mtg, but it seems to me an accountabilty factor to have a full set of eyes.
Matthew Shears:how can it be ad hoc if it has a clear and defined responsibility of reviewing operator performance, etc.
Milton Mueller:Alan, the point is not to proliferate duplicative bureaucracy.
Milton Mueller:Avri: MRT can do that
Elise Lindeberg GAC:CSC must be standing - its important to have some procedures and framework around IANA performance review. How often they meet is something else
Avri Doria:Milton, I do not beleive it can without a set of eye being in the CSC.
Milton Mueller:Registries are not homogenous in their interests
Alan Greenberg:No discussion of MRT has ever assigned policy monitoring to MRT.\
Donna Austin, RySG:@Alan, it's not so much the pandering, but when it becomes interference in operationa issues, it becomes a problem.
Steve Crocker:Avri, what pollicies are you referring to? The IANA function is not the place for recourse about the value-laden judgments inovlved delegation and redelegation.
Avri Doria:yet they do have a common point of view, even with variants.. someone with the policy/implementation skills needs to keep watch..
Alan Greenberg:@Greg, then set time constraints. Rys will have majority to win.
Avri Doria:yes, the fear of mucking up the works, is the light of day.
Avri Doria:Experts iinstead of multstakeholder is the compromise.
Alan Greenberg:Integrate in a holistic fashion. Eaxactly what does that mean????????????????????
Avri Doria:i have not heard so much use of holistic since my hippie days.
Milton Mueller:its part of the ecosystem, Avri ;-)
Elise Lindeberg GAC:What we discussed on the weekend was good communication between CSC and MRT - not to mix them up
Paul Kane:https://www.iana.org/performance/root-audit
Milton Mueller:a holistic groovy ecosystem
Paul Kane:Performance short fall is NOT acceptable
Greg Shatan:@Paul -- absolutely not., and that is what CSC is there to deal with on the front lines.
Avri Doria:I am looking for people who are experts at understanding policy/implementaiton - there are indeed technical people that do policy.
Paul Kane:IANA is very responsive to our technical needs
Matthew Shears:seems to me we have had this very discussion a few times already
Milton Mueller:really
Avri Doria:and i am looking for 1 or 2 people, not bunches mucking about.
Alan Greenberg:Set rules that reviews need to be in within some deadline, have more Rys that peasants so that they can be overrulled.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):YES Really
Milton Mueller:lets agree on one
Alan Greenberg:I'm glad that we have now gotten down to just the GNSO and eliminated the rabble.
Milton Mueller:we're taking a holistic view....
Paul Kane:ok - small group of 1 is fine :-)
Elise Lindeberg GAC:This one person - a liason ?
Milton Mueller:Just rabbling your cage, Alan
Paul Kane:Milton :-) Holistic :-)
Elise Lindeberg GAC:Liason from the MRT, that is ..?
Milton Mueller:reasonable? ALAC? rarely do those things occur in the same phrase
Milton Mueller:Idea of liaison from MRT makes sense, Elise
Alan Greenberg:I'm quite sure the GNSO (non-Ry) and GAC will be happy to have the ALAC represent them. A ssign that we have been accepted at last.
Matthew Shears:Elise - makes sense
Matthew Shears:in addition to the RSSAC and SSAC
Avri Doria:whenever i see a group of people working so hard to keep others out, i get curious, and concerend.
Milton Mueller:whenever i see people clamoring to get into something they don't quite belong in, i feel the same way
Greg Shatan:Avri and Milton may both be right....
Milton Mueller:If there were no MRT, I would understand these concerns. But there will be a MRT. And it will have more authority over who is the IANA functions contractor than CSC
Matthew Shears:is the CSC open? can others participate/observe?
Milton Mueller:yes
Milton Mueller:well, observe at least
Alan Greenberg:Last I heard we would only let sonmeone on CSC if they passed the (rigorous) test!
Matthew Shears:if we limit the "members" then transparency and open meetings are key
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):agre e Donna we are not looking at a "gatekeeper' function
Milton Mueller:Matt: key to what?
Alan Greenberg:I don't think anyone said anything about the CSC doing
Milton Mueller:accurate and secure root zone changes?
Alan Greenberg:approvals"!
Paul Kane:Matthew +1 - reports are open for ALL to review
Donna Austin, RySG:@Greg--if that is the case then there should be no way that the CSC could impact real time operational changes.
Donna Austin, RySG:Which would make me happy.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):agree @Donna
Alan Greenberg:@Donna, I thought we determined long ago that it was just review and complain (if necessary)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):yup @Alan that is my recall also
Donna Austin, RySG:@Alan--there are a number of things I thought we had determined long ago, but we continue to discuss them. so I just wanted to make the point explicitly.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):tell me / us aboitbit @donna :-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):should read about it
Alan Greenberg:@Donna, that seems to be our style.
Alan Greenberg:I did not hear convergence around one rep from the rest of the MS world.
Avri Doria:Dont registries get as many as they want?
Elise Lindeberg GAC:Dona and Alan - I agree that we are discussing things that was determined one the "working weekend"
Matthew Shears:If the CSC is not the authorization function what is?
Alan Greenberg:@Matthew, a detail we haven't gotten to.
Paul Kane:Yes - Donna. We monitor occasionally
Milton Mueller:good idea Donna
Milton Mueller:people who want to push functions on CSC should put them in MRT
Alan Greenberg:@Donna, who has proposed adding responsibility/function for the CSC?
Donna Austin, RySG:@Alan--Avri has mentioned it in the context of whether an MRT is required.
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:I'm here
Avri Doria:i mentionaed that there those who wanted to eliminate MRT and we could not assume it existence.
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:I suspect Rrs might grumble about it
Alan Greenberg:@Donna, sorry, yes, But I don't recall a lot of support...
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:And i'll take that back to them
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:but I think in the spirit of keeping it lean, we can make that work
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Re: whether there should be an MRT I sense we should really go back to the survey results. We are just repeating the points which people answering the survey have made
Elise Lindeberg GAC:CSC lean, MRT also lean - We have discussed this
Milton Mueller:yes
Seun:@Olivier what will we have been discussing to fill this time ;-)
Paul Kane:There are many ccTLDs are NOT members of the ccNSO
Seun:bye for now
Donna Austin, RySG:@ Paul the same is becoming the same for gTLD registries
Paul Kane:Each Registry community can run processes for selection
Paul Kane:Olivier +1
Alan Greenberg:Us micromanage? No, that would never happen.
Stephanie Duchesneau (GNSO/RySG):agree that ccs and g's should be designing their own processes
Eduardo Diaz - (ALAC):So, What was decided about the final compositionn of the CSC? Did I miss that?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:From the working weekend we talked about a two stage process to ensure there are valid candidates
Avri Doria:is 1 multistakehjolder seat an oxymoron?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:Home groups naminate and some other independent group validates
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:CLO suggested the Nominating committee in an ICANN Internal solution
Alan Greenberg:1 miltistakeholder seat certainly will send a message to those who oppose the multistakeholder concept.
Milton Mueller:nonsense
Matthew Shears:So to understand where we are - we have a minimum of 2 seats for the gtlds and 2 for the cctlds, one for the RSSAC, the SSAC and the MRT liaison? Can we confirm where we are on seats and composition?
Alan Greenberg:See avri's message above.
Milton Mueller:it's the CSC. There is a MRT too, remember? The MRT's first inital stands for....what?
jaap akkerhuis (ssac):Note that SSAC has no operational role in ICANN processes so one wonder whether a permanen ole will be accepted by SSAC
Avri Doria:Milton: maybe
Milton Mueller:An AC is by definition an operational role. the role is to provide advice
Donna Austin, RySG:@Jaap - I think Martin said some time ago said that this task would be largely boring -- so that should see considerable drop off over time.
Milton Mueller:M for Maybe. Good one, Avri
Milton Mueller:Dial M for Multistakeholder
Paul Kane:I think we should not prescribe how/when CSC reps meet
Donna Austin, RySG:agree with Paul, this is becoming far too prescriptive and seems to go beyond what is reasonable.
jaap akkerhuis (ssac):Boring is a silly argument whrne talking about fulfilment of futies.
jaap akkerhuis (ssac):duties
Donna Austin, RySG:apologies, I didn't mean to be disrespectful, I was just trying to make a point that this should not be overly complicated and we should build on the experience of the ccs and to some extent NTIA in their management of performance against SLAs.
Paul Kane:May I suggest that we are getting VERY bogged down in prescriptive details. People frequently change jobs within 5 years!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):huge presumption on the contract cycle Milton
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:Avg length of an employees tenure in IT is less than 24 months, so five is pushing it
Paul Kane:Performance facts speak for themselves.
Milton Mueller:Avg length of ICANN people seems to be 15 years. ;-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):agree @donna
maarten Simon, SIDN:+1 @donna
Milton Mueller:agree w CLO agreeing with Donna
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:+1 Donna
Paul Kane:NO - secretariat needed. Starting to get top heavy
Paul Kane:ok but need to be light weight
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (ALAC-AP Region):hell yes @paul way too so...
Donna Austin, RySG:I can't really envisage a situation where travel would be required.
Matthew Shears:+ 1 Donna - although check ins at ICANN meetings might be useful
Matthew Shears:Meet once a month is fine - if performance is fine no need for a meeting
Avri Doria:seems already captued by registries.
Avri Doria:who else is there to capture it.
Paul Kane:review of reports ...... impacted parties .... hmmmm
Milton Mueller:right, it's like saying the NCSG has been captured by noncommercial interests
Donna Austin, RySG:I also expect that IANA sessions will continue at ICANN meetings and regional ccTLDs meetings, which will be part of the monitoring of IANA performance as a whole. IIt iss expected that the RySG will start do the same moving forward.
Alan Greenberg:@Avri, I tried and failed!
Donna Austin, RySG:not captured, just managed.
Milton Mueller:CSC should be "captured" by IANA customers
Elise Lindeberg GAC:capture for CSC....?:)
Alan Greenberg:Perhaps we need to talk about capture of the CWG.
Avri Doria:i generally do not beleive in capture. but if there is a notion of capture it is difficult to figure out who could when only one stakeholder group corntols something..
Alan Greenberg:Do we need <JOKE ON> and <JOKE OFF> buttons on adobe connect?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:If the CSC sets the SLAs then we could imagine a scenario where a captured CSC would create unrealistic SLAs?
Milton Mueller:did we lose sound?
Donna Austin, RySG:have we lost sound or just me?
Matthew Shears:hello?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:If that is even anywhere near a realistic possibility
Alan Greenberg:See my message that just scolled off the screen!
Alan Greenberg:scrolled
Desiree Miloshevic:Can everyone hear? Lost audio here
Alan Greenberg:I suggest that the CSC conduct site visits on site.
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:audio good here
Paul Kane:Site visits are not needed. it either works or doesn't
Donna Austin, RySG:Representative or, does not need to be the whole.
Paul Kane:If it does not work - then IANA contractor needs to be replaced
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:+1 Donna
Matthew Shears:why were they undertaken then?
Avri Doria:there was separation? in the current arrangement? I know it was requried, but i did not notice that it ever actually occured.
Paul Kane:+1 Donna
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:I feel site visits are useful in order to resolve anything that can be resolved in a F2F meeting. Replacing the contractor is the last step but there should be other steps before reaching this.
Mary Uduma:@ Donna What of the Registries that do not attend ICANN meetings?
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:Donna's suggestion of having this at an ICANN meeting makes sense
Paul Kane:+1 Mary - there are MANY ccTLDs that do not attend ICANN meetings
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:this is a CSC site visit, not a huge number of Registries
Donna Austin, RySG:IANA has in the past also attended regional ccTLD meetings.
Paul Kane:IANA staff do attend regional meetings and give briefings regionally
Matthew Shears:+ 1 Olivier
Milton Mueller:let's adjourn!
Matthew Shears:Site visits and being on hand at ICANN meetings are two different things
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:+1
Paul Kane:Happy to end this call. When will MRT call be discussed
Avri Doria:this meeting will drive me to drink. ass soon as it ends.
Olivier Crepin-Leblond:@Matthew: but a meeting between the CSC & IANA Staff at an ICANN meeting would probably work as a site visit
Milton Mueller:you mean continue drinking?
Milton Mueller:;-)
jaap akkerhuis (ssac):Having a beer right ow ...
Milton Mueller:I would like to start
Avri Doria:i am drinking a coke. industrious attenidn gthis very depressing meeting.
Paul Kane:Thanks all ...
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:bye
Mary Uduma:Thnaks All and bye
Matthew Shears:thanks Greg!
jaap akkerhuis (ssac):By all
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:thanks all
Allan MacGillivray:Night all
Greg Shatan:Thank you all and good bye.
Greg Shatan:And prosit where appropriate.
