Members:   Sebastien Bachollet, Alan GreenbergAthina Fraghouli, Izume Okytani, James Bladel, Jordan Carter, Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Roelof Meijer, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Eberhard Lisse, Par Brumark, Samantha Eisner, Steve Del Biano, Thomas Rickert, Alice Munyua  (16)

Participants:  Eric Brunner-Williams, Arun Sukumar, David Maher, David McAuley, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Carrie Devorah, Avri Doria, Beran Gillen, Edward Morris, Oanh Nguyen Thi, Olivier Muron, Stephanie Duchesneau, Tomohiro Fujisaki, Barrack Otieno, Kavouss Arasteh, Dina Beer, Rudolph Daniel   (18)

Staff:  Adam Peake, Bart Boswinkel, Brenda Brewer, Grace Abuhamed, Marika Konings, Theresa Swinehart; Berry Cobb

Apologies: Martin Boyle; Tijani Ben Jemaa; Olga Cavalli;  Isaque Joaquim

**Please let Grace know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**

Proposed Agenda: 

1. Welcome & Roll Call & Statement of Interest

2. Membership Updates (including Advisors)

3. Discussion regarding interactions with Advisors

4. Coordination between CWG and ICG

5. Work Area Updates

  • WA1 – David Maher / Samantha Eisner
  • WA2 – Steve DelBianco
  • WA3 – Avri Doria
  • WA4 – Eric Brunner-Williams

6. Draft Work Plan: Steps and Milestones (review PDF attached)

7. AOB

8. Closing Remarks


Notes & Action Items

1. Welcome & Roll Call & Statement of Interest

On audio: Carrie Devorah

Wiki Accounts need to be sent for SOIs to be uploaded 

ACTION: contact Grace if you still have not received an account or uploaded your SOI

Brenda Brewer joins the staff support team

ALAC appoints Leon Sanchez as co-Chair


2. Membership Updates (including Advisors)

ATRT Expert has been selected: Avri Doria

Announcement of the 6 Advisors (A seventh member, with expertise in international law/ jurisdiction will be appointed)


3. Discussion regarding interactions with Advisors 

(slides presented)

presentation from the Charter text

Advisors to be encouraged to join the group's deliberations as soon as possible, calls will be held with the co-chairs on early January

Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw): for the chat record: i suggested adding a bullet point for the irs constraints/opportunities, in addition to those arising from the California non-profit status.


4. Coordination between CWG and ICG

CCWG plans to respond in 2nd half of January 

The two Chairs' groups had another coordination call on Friday and the CWG Chairs were eager to get responses sooner (concern with their timeline for submission to the ICG). 

The CWG concern is coming from the fact that the CWG is going into intense work weekend on Jan 10-11. Planned delivery of their final report on 19 January. Coordination with the CCWG would be desirable.


1. Desire to get input by meeting on Jan 10-11

2.  Provide a response with general statements

3. Caveat from our group that we do cannot produce proposals that are not fully deliberated and have consensus.

4. Willingness to provide progress reports

5. Our group provides general advice and should not just support or feed into one community but rather the full proposal.  


5. Work Area Updates

  • WA1 – David Maher / Samantha Eisner

(See latest draft on Wiki)

ICANN staff are not accountable to the ICANN Board. Only 2 people on staff are hired by Board (CEO and Ombudsman)

Disagreement on "Accountable to whom" column: are the processes accountable to the community?

Bladel: add a column about whether each existing mechanism is worth keeping or not in future?

ACTION: DIDP to be added to table per Doria's suggestion

---> No objection to taking this document as interim result.


  • WA2 – Steve DelBianco

Took 45 accountability mechanisms, categorized them into WS1 and WS2 also in to three mechanism types: 

1. Mechanisms giving the ICANN community ultimate authority over the ICANN


2. Mechanisms to restrict actions of the board and management of the ICANN


3. Mechanisms to prescribe actions of the ICANN corporation.

ACTION: Doria to cross check the document and add recommendations from ATRT1 and ATRT2

ACTION: Add a column to flag what has been requested by other communities and specifically the 3 items that were requested by the CWG.

Greenberg: this is input, not interim work result


  • WA3 – Avri Doria

Doria: not much done yet.  20 people signed up.  need to build a table of CWG issues that have a CCWG link. many of the issues have come up in today's discussion.  they need to be captured in that table.


  • WA4 – Eric Brunner-Williams

started with an analysis of the 10 stress tests

Arasteh suggests considering the NETmundial  comments on accountability. 

ACTION: Staff to post comments of EBW and JB to Wiki page

ACTION: All should provide input in contingencies so they can be considered.


6. Draft Work Plan: Steps and Milestones

Second reading of Work Plan

ACTION: Staff to prepare a more detailed timeline


7. AOB

Meeting details:

Note that the CCWG is still in the phase of collecting ideas. No decisions have been made. 


8. Closing Remarks

Co-chairs will engage with Advisors to bring them on asap

continue to exchange with CWG co-chairs

Group has feedback to provde re: WA1 and WA2. Will discuss with WA4 to get way forward

Staff/Chairs will work to provide more detailed timeline



The transcript is available here: Meeting3_23Dec.pdf


The Adobe Connect recording is available here:

The audio recording is available here:


Documents Presented

20141219 Engagement with Advisors.pdf

20141214 Accountability steps milestones.pdf


Chat Transcript

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:Hello everyone

  Marika Konings:Welcome to the Enhancing ICANN Accountability CCWG meeting of 23 December 2014

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):audio?

  Marika Konings:@Eric - did you just hear Grace speak?

  Roelof Meijer:Good morning / good day everyone

  Marika Konings:Audio should be working via Adobe Connect

  Roelof Meijer:audio is working my side

  Pär Brumark (GAC) Niue:A very Good Morning to you all!

  Marika Konings:Thanks for confirming Roelof!

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):@marika, yes

  Grace Abuhamad:great!

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):Helllo all

  James Bladel-GNSO:Good evening/morning everyone.

  Marika Konings:Please mute your lines when not speaking

  Leon Sanchez:hello everyone

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:A couple of minutes and we'll start

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):Hello

  Leon Sanchez:I listen fine

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):yes

  CCWG ACCT:hello all Rudi Daniel

  Marika Konings:@Rudi - I will update your name in the AC so others can 'see' you.

  Rudi Daniel:thank you

  Marika Konings:As a reminder, if you need to update your name in Adobe Connect, you can do so by selecting 'edit my info' in the menu in the attendee pod.

  David McAuley (Verisign):Waiting for wiki password as well

  Grace Abuhamad:Noted @David. Working on it.

  Avri Doria:apologies for being late.

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):apologies I am late - tech trouble

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:Apologies for being late too

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):How can we be confident the Advisors will only do what their role is? :) It is important that they do not try and advocate for their ideas, but just provide advice

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:That is true for every oe involved members, liaisions and participants

  Thomas Rickert (m, NCA to the GNSO Council):can you please mute your microphones when not speaking?

  Alan Greenberg:When they are sharing their understanding of some issue or accountability measure, it will not necessarily be "advice"

  Roelof Meijer (ccNSO):Since each of the advisors is supposed to be expert in a particular field, can we not better limited the subject of their advice to be in that area?

  Grace Abuhamad:Please mute your lines or I will need to temporarily remove audio access for all in the AC room

  Arun Sukumar (CCG Delhi):Agree with the proposal,  only add that questions or requests be phrased as precisely  and concisely as possible

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:I have principal objecctions to be hampered by deadlines from investigating anything pertinent/important.

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):In my opinion these are some good initial topics, and I support the general approach set out. Agree Roelof's point of making sure advisors are advising in their area of expertise

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):+ 1 Roelof and Jordan

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):for the chat record: i suggested adding a bullet point for the irs constraints/opportunities, in addition to those arising from the california non-profit status.

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):Agree

  Thomas Rickert (m, NCA to the GNSO Council):These topics are tagged "initial", so I guess we should get the advisors involved with the points mentioned on the slide and as refined by your comments and then further refine  our questions, maybe  direct them at individual advisors  according to their expertise.

  Roelof Meijer:Good point made by Steve, I agree

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:I would have to oppose a consensus of providing "general" unreflected advice.

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:Even, and/or especially due to time constraints

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:we also have a F2F in the week of the 19 Jan Greg there would be more opportunity for input after that I suspect

  Alan Greenberg (ALAC):Certainly we will be in a much better at the end of our f2f.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:+++ to that @samantha

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:Great work Samantha & al !

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:that Keith s for this

  Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I believe there were some specific points mentioned in the CWG communication to the CCWG. It might be useful to focus on those.

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:@Greg : yes, they were discussed with the Co-chairs

  Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Thank you, Mathieu

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:Very relevant to our discussion re: what is WS1 vs WS2

  David McAuley (Verisign):Wouldn’t it be useful to add a column on whether outcome is binding on board or advisory?

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):+1 to James's suggestion

  Roelof Meijer:@David: I think so yes. Steve has a valid point, the existing problem is that presently, to community rarely has the final say. The ICANN Board has. Or, behind the scene, on crucial issues the USG/NTIA..

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):+1 to Kavouss's point

  Avri Doria:should the DIshouldthe DIDPbe included in the list?

  Samantha Eisner:it's not there

  Samantha Eisner:but we can add it

  Avri Doria:transparency mechanisms were part of the accountabilty mix in the atrt.

  Grace Abuhamad:Nice ATRT expert move @Avri ;)

  Barrack Otieno:no objection from me

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):I'm happy with the suggested approach

  Barrack Otieno:+1 Izumi

  Roelof Meijer:I will do the rest of the call from my car, so will not be avble to raise hand or chat

  Thomas Rickert (m, NCA to the GNSO Council):please then do just speak up, Roelof

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:@Roelof : ok, let us know via voice if you want to speak up

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):I do not think that any items should be removed at this point

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):this is to review and bring input together.

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:I am becoming quite upset about repeated interventions without "raising hand"

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:It is the same participant and it should not be tolerated

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):i could do without the misuse of "imperialism"

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:I should note that additional suggestions and comments for this list arrived after we published Draft v4.  (Izumi, Castro, Donkor, , etc)

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:@eberhard : Carrie is not in Adobe room

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):Thank you Steve for recogizing our comments

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):I think one question is whether we will do a public call for further suggestions, exposing this list as a "so far we have these ideas"

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:Mathieu, why not?

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:don't know ut that is perfectly acceptable

  Barrack Otieno:a public call is ideal for transparency

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:The Adobe Tool is there for a reason and easy to use

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:so it is enough to say "opposition noted" for now?

  Thomas Rickert (m, NCA to the GNSO Council):Eberhard, can I ask we not dwell on this further? People might not have connectivity, a computer in front of them or other issues keeping them from joining the adobe. I am very appreciateive of  everyone that take the time to join, regardless through what channel.

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:@Avri: as ATRT expert could you check whether everything from the recs in Onboard ?

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:we relied upon staff summary of public comments to create the list.  We did not specifically dive into the ATRT1 and ATRT2 recomendations.   But that is a good idea for next meeting

  Avri Doria:ok, will do (btw, apologies i have a real lag communicating with AC t

  Avri Doria:... today

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:thanks Avri

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):very good discussion thanks Steve and all.

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):OK, that makes sense

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):Thank you Thomas for clarifying

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):I agree with this approach

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):i think these are severable

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):nor do they soleley depend upon a change in the form of the corporation, adding members.

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:ok thanks

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):I apologise but I have to leave this call now

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:@Steve: I just sent you the note from Jonathan

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):I agree with Alan of this being the purpose of this list

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):+ 1 to Alan

  Alan Greenberg (ALAC):It might be useful to understand if Steve agreed with me..

  Rudi Daniel:+1 to Greenberg

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:Enumerated powers of the Members DOES NOT IMPLY that the Community/Members must exercise those powers.   If that's what Alan said, I agree wholeheartedly

  Alan Greenberg (ALAC):I have a problem describing this as an "interim work result" At this point, it is input into our deliberations!

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):can someone specify clearly what the purpose of this doc is - if it stands as Alan suggests as a list of the suggestions and an initial allocation into categories, that's OK

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):but I agree w Alan that it is there to inform us further

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):not tbe our final statement about which category things are on

  Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs):or our only view of what can be a possible option

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):I have the same understanding as Jordan

  Greg Shatan:This is a tool .

  Avri Doria:on WA3: not much done yet.  20 people signed up.  need to build a table of CWG issues that have a CCWG link. many of the issues have come up in today's discussion.  they need to be captured in that table.

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:@ebw:  Could staff post the comments of you and James to the Work Area 4 Document page? 

  Adam Peake:NETMundial documents:

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):@steve, of course.

  Grace Abuhamad:@Steve sure. will do

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):yes

  Thomas Rickert:All should provide input in contingencies so they can be considered.

  Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):Sorry, i was away. about wa3, can i get what kind of issues came up later?

  Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):by notes?

  Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):national holiday here in Japan. :-)

  Avri Doria:Yasuichi: the main issue was that we have not started yet, but that a table will be assembled before the next meeting. 

  Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):thank you avri

  Grace Abuhamad:

  Barrack Otieno:thanks Grace

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):excellent!

  Grace Abuhamad:All -- please review the meeting details here:

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):who is it?

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:Are we talking about David Johnson?

  Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair:Yes, on IGP blog

  Grace Abuhamad:This is the blog:

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:David not only misunderstood our methods, but he also made his own suggestion for accountability (a Contract)

  Steve DelBianco [CSG]:I suggest we invite David into our CCWG.  He is very experienced

  Arun Sukumar (CCG Delhi):Anyone is free to join this group - surely bloggers or other individuals can engage with it institutionally?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:I like that appre@Steve

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:should read approach

  Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]:But, we ARE discussing this...

  Izumi Okutani (ASO):My apologies - I have to leave for another call

  Avri Doria:hearing and understanding are sometimes realties apart.

  Rudi Daniel:very good discussion thank you all. 4am here.

  Barrack Otieno:no comments from me Chair

  Barrack Otieno:thank you for steering the meeting well

  Arun Sukumar (CCG Delhi):second Mr. Arasteh's suggestion. That would be great, if possible..

  Alice Munyua (GAC):+1 to proposal by Kavoss

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Seasons Greetings to you all then talk next week bye for now...

  David McAuley (Verisign):thanks

  Athina Fragkouli (ASO):thank you!

  Barrack Otieno:Seasons greetings all, bye

  Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw):bye all.

  Pär Brumark (GAC) Niue:Happy holidays to all of you and your families!!

  Bart Boswinkel:Bye al

  Beran Gillen (ALAC):bye

  Rudi Daniel:happy holidays all

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