Attendees:
Members: Avri Doria, Donna Austin, Eduardo Diaz, Elise Lindeberg, Erick Iriarte, Fatima Cambronero, Graeme Bunton, Greg Shatan, Jaap Akkerhuis, Jonathan Robinson, Lise Fuhr, Olivier Crepin-Leblond, Robert Guerra, Wanawit Ahkuputra
Participants: Alan Greenberg, Allan MacGillivray, Amr Elsadr, Brenden Kuerbis, Carolina Aguerre, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Chuck Gomes, Gary Campbell, Guru Acharya, Keith Davidson, Lars Erik Forsberg, Maarten Simon, Manal Ismail, Mark Carvell, Martin Boyle, Matthew Shears, Peter Van Roste, Plamena Popova, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy, Tomohiro Fujisaki, Yasuichi Kitamura, Wale Bakare
Staff: Grace Abuhamad, Berry Cobb, Bernard Turcotte, Theresa Swinehart
Apologies:
**Please let Grace know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Proposed Agenda:
Notes and Action Items:
Transcript
The transcript will be posted as soon as it is available
Recording
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p5mt4wrwq87/
The audio recording is available here:
Documents Presented
Draft of Principles_10 December_clean.docx
Draft of Principles_10 December_clean.pdf
Chat Transcript
Grace Abuhamad:Welcome to the 10th CWG-Stewardship meeting on Thursday 11 December (11:00 UTC)
Yasuichi Kitamura (At-Large):hi, all
Robert Guerra:Good day all
Robert Guerra:am connecting via adobe. Will call in via audio bridge if have audio issues.
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:hello - not getting any sound from the adobe room?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:yes
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:quiet before the storm ;-)
Donna Austin, RySG:Grace, can you post the dial in info please?
Grace Abuhamad:I'll send it to you Donna
Donna Austin, RySG:thank you
Wale Bakare:Good day everyone
Allan MacGillivray:Hello everyone
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:Good morning all
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Good pre-dawn, morning, afternoon, evening and night
Keith Davidson ccTLD:Hi all
Grace Abuhamad:You can scroll through this document. It's a "print version from the Wiki tracking page
Donna Austin, RySG:is the audio 'crackling' to anyone else?
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:was, ok now
Donna Austin, RySG:hmm, still pretty bad for me.
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:@Donna - I am on Adobe only
Donna Austin, RySG:ok,
Elise Lindeberg GAC:sorry - i have to fix the sound - move on and i will get back in a second
Chuck Gomes:Have you had your coffee?
Jonathan Robinson:Focus of the report is on the work of your group relative to the work of this (CWG) group not necessarily on the transition as a whole
Donna Austin, RySG:@Chuck, if that question is for me the answer is 'no'.
Grace Abuhamad:Elise do you want a dial out?
Elise Lindeberg GAC:yes - dial out would be ok I think ...;)
Grace Abuhamad:dialing :)
Eduardo Diaz - (ALAC):There is noise inthe line
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Please go on mute if you are not speaking.
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:Donna - hand?
erick iriarte:sorry for delay :)
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt:UK government has held consultations at the national level by circulating key CWG documents to the UK government's Multi-stakeholder Advisory Group on Internet Governance (MAGIG) including the draft proposal and the latest, very helpful, compilation of key questions. A face to face meeting with MAGIG members last month discussed the strawmen proposals. A follow up MAGIG meeting is being scheduled for mid- January .
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:I should perhaps note that interest from registrars not a part of the RrSG was rather limited
Grace Abuhamad:haha nice to be honest Graeme :)
Jonathan Robinson:@Mark Carvell - thank you for that update.
Jonathan Robinson:@Graeme - Acknowledged and participation is desirable but at least you have done the outreach
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:Graeme - hand
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:Thanks Bernie
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:No sound Peter
Peter Van Roste - CENTR - ccTLDs:Apologies headset issues.
Peter Van Roste - CENTR - ccTLDs:Will do.
Elise Lindeberg GAC:The GAC has alredy assembled some substatianl comments on the draft proposal
Peter Van Roste - CENTR - ccTLDs:Regular updates on process and issues to the CENTR community and non-members from EU region. (no feedback from that group which includes for instance Monaco and San Marino)Started visual overview of process with links to all docs, updated at every step of the processDrafting CENTR commentsPlanning CENTR webinar
Martin Boyle, Nominet, ICG:It is a goood and helpful document
Grace Abuhamad:Thank you @Mark and @ Peter
Avri Doria:it is a good indicator of areas we need more work in.
Elise Lindeberg GAC:Yes, thank`s for providing this document - very usefull !
Fatima Cambronero:+1
Carolina Aguerre:In terms of outreach in LACTLD we have held in house webinars, as well as disseminating all the relevant information from the CWG and the process in general. We have also addressed non-LACTLD members in the Caribbean with individual invitations to attend our meeting last month in Aruba, as well as to communicate the importance of the issue in late June. We did get acknowledgement of receipt of a couple ccTLDs in the Caribbean to these personal emails/invitations. We will be submitting a report to Bart today on our actions regarding outreach and capacity building since the IST was announced in March. We will be also submitting comments before Dec 22.
Grace Abuhamad:Thank you @Carolina
erick iriarte:only to add to @carolina words. We share information in spanish (large language in our region).
Robert Guerra:have calendar invites been sent for the 23th & 30th?
Grace Abuhamad:not yet
Robert Guerra:ok. thanks
Avri Doria:holiday meetings are fine for me. schedule is emptier, easier to fit them in.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Avri -- that is the multistakeholder version of the holiday spirit!
Donna Austin, RySG:I'll just note that 3am is not conducive to best work.
Robert Guerra:for RFP 4 - sent Grace possible time(s) for call(s) next wk
Robert Guerra:was a bit quiet this week as have been hit by a terrible flu/fever
Donna Austin, RySG:can the agenda be put back on the screen please?
Grace Abuhamad:It's in the notes Donna
Donna Austin, RySG:thanks Grace
Chuck Gomes:Scroll to top for agenda
Lise Fuhr:Co-chairs are Matheiu Weill and Thomas Rickert
Grace Abuhamad:@Donna -- do you have scroll ability with the Notes? Just want to be sure
Donna Austin, RySG:yes i do
Lise Fuhr:Sorry I mean Mathieu
Grace Abuhamad:Ok Noted @Alan!
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):Thanks.
Jonathan Robinson:If you need to provide input or comment to Martin Boyle on these principles, please raise your hand.
Sivasubramanian M 2:On What Chuck suggested, if anyone deputes someone already familiar with the work of the CWG and has been following the CWG closely, it would be easy on the CWG, but otherwise, in the interest of consistency, it may be easier for the member himself to follow the recordings of the meetings missed and make comments by email. Just a general thought, any member could make his own decision depending on situations unique to him or her
Keith Davidson ccTLD:Thanks chairs, all, I have to sign off now for ccNSO Council call
Jonathan Robinson:Thank-you Keith
Matthew Shears CDT: we probably need to check that the current proposal meets/is consistent with the principles... for example the issue of capture
Sivasubramanian M 2:Good idea to delete that portion
Fatima Cambronero:agree @Matt
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:We seem to have lost Martin
Avri Doria:it is a threshold decsion on capture. the wisder version is tough to judge.
Chuck Gomes:I am fine with Alan's broader definition
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I am concerned by how far Alan's definition could go if unchecked.
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt:Capture: a dysfunctional situation in an oversight or regulatory structure that advances the commercial or special concerns of a specific interest group or groups which dominate the industry , sector or sphere of activity - often against the interests of others.
Chuck Gomes:It sounds to me like some of what we may be talking about limitation of mission rather than capture.
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):I was not suggesting that we try to decide on a definition here. It is a relatively complex issue. I was just suggesting that we work towards adding a definition.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):My last point was that "capture" should be defined/limited by deviation from the intended set-up/mission.
Chuck Gomes:Agree with Greg
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Mark Carvell: Is there a source for that definition, or is that your contemporaneous creation?
Sivasubramanian M 2:In ICANN or IANA it might not be a Corporate Hostile Takeover kind of scenario, but a slow, calculated processs of the capturing entity / entities taking Community and/or staff positions one by one, often in a manner that is not easily visible or even in a manner that is invisible. This is how Capture by one stakeholder group or capture by a rival organization could happen
Avri Doria:but that is not capture, but is being insufficinetly inclusive which is another principle.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Avri: agree.
Avri Doria:thia (in the above) == a voice not being heard
Sivasubramanian M 2:Could work by the hostile entity placing people as well as by blocking pro-interner people
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Siva: that seems rather sinister. Also rather far-fetched. Do you have real life examples in the multistakeholder context?
jaap akkerhuis SSAC:Apologies, I had anemergency visit to the dentist
Matthew Shears CDT:capture is not just about a single stakeholder but also organisations that may have sway over or influence over the function through management Board etc.
Sivasubramanian M 2:@ Greg It is not sinister, it is not far-fetched either, happens everyday, the degree to which the other forces implement it or the degree to which they succed is limited. I have actually talked about it as a milder form of capture, which happens everyday
erick iriarte:could be better delete "third-party intervention in these decisions should not be possible except in the agreed use of trusted/impartial third party assessors"
Sivasubramanian M 2:@ Greg I was sying it generally, there are no names, no specific stakeholder at the back of my mind, when I said this
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:yes
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt:@ Greg: no source for that definition - adapted from regulatory capture risk.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Mark -- Nicely done, then.
Matthew Shears CDT:I don't see the harm in reinforcing the key principles of bottom-up processes in the principles
Matthew Shears CDT:they are rather key to the ways in which we are and should be working
Sivasubramanian M:8 ii ccTLDs are provided IANA services, and the contract-free arragnement could continue, but can't we atleast have the lightest form of some documentation even in non-legal terms as a formality ? Or is there such a documentation modality already in place?
Matthew Shears CDT:works for me
Martin Boyle, Nominet, ICG:iii. For gTLDs: the IANA function should continue to provide service notwithstanding any on-going, previous or anticipated contractual disputes between ICANN and the gTLD operator. No additional requirements for prompt delivery of IANA services should be imposed unless they are directly and demonstrably linked to global security, stability and resilience of the DNS.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Fine with me, with removal of previous.
Sivasubramanian M:+1 Martin Boyle
Amr Elsadr:@Martin: Could you repeat the question again?
Grace Abuhamad:This is how the principle reads with proposed deletions: h. Separability: any proposal must ensure the ability:i. To separate the IANA Functions from the current operator if warranted and in line with agreed processes; andii. To convene a process for selecting a new Operator.
Matthew Shears CDT:thanks Grace - difficult to see on the screen
Sivasubramanian M:Discontinuation or suspnsion of services to gTLDs should be a process that can only follow an elaborate multilevel decision, even in time sensitive security sitatuions. i.e It shoudl be a most unusual situtaion, with a lot of attention to such a decision by responsible people within ICANN.
Sivasubramanian M:Where there is an emergency need to suspend a gTLD, even in such time senistive situation, the most responsible people should be involved, even if by a conference call
Gary Campbell 2:Who determines the full range of stakeholders?
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):Extraneous word BE in i.
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):And IT should be ITS
Grace Abuhamad:thanks Alan will fix
Matthew Shears CDT:in terms of oversight we should retain the multistakeholder principle
Matthew Shears CDT:+ 1 chuck
Jonathan Robinson:Please note: 15 minutes remaining. We need 10 minutes to wrap-up.
Matthew Shears CDT:also believe that separabilty should persist - does not mean that it should occur but that it exists as an option - the MRT or whoever would decide
Elise Lindeberg GAC:This is principles for this groups work - not for all future
Brenden Kuerbis:Agree with Matt
Lise Fuhr:@Elise I agree
Amr Elsadr:Also agree with Matt.
Amr Elsadr:@Elise: +1
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):There's also a drafting mismatch between the Separability chapeau text and the text of iii -- it doesn't "flow."
Grace Abuhamad:I can fix that Greg
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I disagree with "then-current"
Elise Lindeberg GAC:in this round/these principles - separability should persist
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):That has the same future effect I am objecting to.
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):Greg if the current operator is ICANN, does iii mean that any future transfer must keep it separate from ICANN?
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):Why pick out ICANN as opposed to some other entity?
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):No, I don't see it meaning tat.
Chuck Gomes:Agree with Avri on persistance
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):that.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Okay with a "should" but not with a "to".
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):@Greg, then it is unclear gramatically what the "To persis{ is referring to in iii.
Lise Fuhr:Thank you for the good work Martin
Grace Abuhamad:Can you suggest an alternative @Alan
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):All I am asking for is clarity
Chuck Gomes:Time was well spent on the principles.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I object to iii in any version that is prescriptive rather than hortatory.
Alan Greenberg (ALAC):I did suggest. reference to THEN CURRENT. It was not accepted
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):hortatory = words of encouragement but not an absolute.
Chuck Gomes:How would you word iii Greg?
Matthew Shears CDT:"to consider separability in any ..." ?
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I have asked Grace to schedule a meeting of RFP3 for early next week.
Martin Boyle, Nominet, ICG:@alan: I have noted
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):@Matthew -- sounds good to me.
Amr Elsadr:Going back to an earlier point made by Greg, I would also like a multistakeholder composition of the MRP in the CWG's proposal, but not sure it belongs in the principles.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Maybe i should just say "(i.e., ICANN)" after "current operator".
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Got kicked off phone.
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):But I think the next level of detail falls into RFP3 and to an extent RFP4.
Chuck Gomes:I need to exit Adobe but will stay on the audio.
Lise Fuhr:Thank you Jonathan
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):I certainly expect that RFP3 will be dealing with a lot of details in the coming days (some much more critical than the term details implies).
Bernard Turcotte - staff support:bye
Greg Shatan (GNSO/CSG/IPC):Bye all!
Fatima Cambronero:thanks all. Bye
Tomohiro Fujisaki:Bye.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr:bye
Martin Boyle, Nominet, ICG:Thanks and bye
erick iriarte:bye
Graeme Bunton - RrSG:thanks all
Matthew Shears CDT:bye
Sivasubramanian M:bye
Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Bye.
jaap akkerhuis SSAC:OK, bye
Robert Guerra:bye all
Allan MacGillivray:G
Gary Campbell 2:bye