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                                                I know that multilingualism and remote participation is always a big issue, but some people might have missed this when reading the proposal or it was not apparent during the last Program Committee call – we agreed not to offer translation and we also agreed not to offer remote participation.  There are two very important reasons.  One of them is that it’s in face-to-face meetings.  It’s not designed as an outreach program or as a capacity building program.  It is only, and I put this in brackets, it is only face-to-face meetings for incoming ICANN officers.  According to the bylaws, to communicate in English is expected from an ICANN officer, so actually to communicate in English should first of all not be a problem for those people attending the course.

                                                On the other hand I’m very convinced that a program which is not designed for online use or which is not designed as an online program, we should not offer remote participation because this causes frustration on the other types of \[lines\], and I mean the remote participant now.  A face-to-face meeting is somewhere where the key proposal or the key element of the proposal is very much focused on the interaction and the socializing aspect.  So you won’t have the possibility to get translation everywhere because when you’re in a discussion with somebody you want everything \[right\] with you and this is a very important key element of this proposal, to force the cross-constituency discussions.  And on the other hand it also makes a big difference if you have a lively discussion in the classroom or even if it is not in a classroom it can be out, somewhere else.

                                                And we’re trying to avoid any conference style.  It should not be a conference where you take the mic; maybe mics will not even be needed in a small room with fifteen people or twenty people.  And if we don’t have all those technical facilities we cannot offer remote participation, Adobe Connect or a telephone line in an efficient manner which is frustrating for the remote participant on the other line.  The program is not designed for it, and in my point of view we are also choosing money that could be spent on a program which is designed for remote participation that \[would be well used\] then in an outreach capacity for the program. 

But this in our case it is not, so therefore also for budget reasons but budget should not be on the first place; it should be in the second place only, therefore we decided as a Program Committee not to offer translation and not to offer remote participation, Adobe Connect and things like this.  I see these things are generally very important but not for this face-to-face sort of basecamp which we are talking about.  Are there any quick, comments, questions?  Not to open the big discussion but just some comments that anyone would like to make right now?

If this is not the case then quickly…  I see Tijani raised his hand.  So as long as (inaudible) I will hand over the floor to Tijani.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Hello?  Hello? 

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Hello?  There is somebody else on the line.  We can hear you very far away.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Okay, so can you hear me now?

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, we hear you better now.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Okay.  Yes, we decided in the Program Committee not to provide interpretation and not to provide translation, and not to provide remote participation, but we discussed and perhaps we approved that we will translate all the documents of the courses.  So yes, there is not interpretation but there is translation of the documents.

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, thank you, Tijani, for this reminder.  You are absolutely right and this also guides me to a proposal which I think was made by Raquel Gatto when she mentioned in her email on the mailing list that all documents we are using for the Academy should be offered in different languages to make it easier for the participants, for the Fellows, for the trainees to understand the content when they have the chance to read those documents in their own language.  I think we should do this and we are also thinking about offering mp3s and maybe translate them later on.

                                                But I will assume that these things once they are done can also be used for other capacity building programs and this is one of the longer-term proposals to develop all ICANN capacity building programs under one umbrella which could be named ICANN Academy, and then the documents for each course if necessary can be harmonized and synchronized.  And anyway, I think this goes in the right direction.  I see Raquel raised her hand.  Raquel, you have the floor, please.  Raquel, you might be muted.  We cannot hear you.

Raquel Gatto:                          Can you hear me now?

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, we can hear you now.

Raquel Gatto:                          Oh great.  Thanks Sandra, and hello to you and all the participants, and thank you for mentioning the email.  That’s correct – I was mentioning that we cannot make double services of translation because we already do have some documents available.  But my point here now is to make sure I’m not missing one point: this idea to not have translation and remote participation is only for the first training, but it might be developed in further ICANN Academies.  This is the first point.

                                                And the second point is when we have in the bylaws that English is essential to communicate, it’s not the same as to have the better interpretation or the better expression of a participant.  I am also from a non-English native speaking country so at least I can say by myself that it’s much easier to learn in Portuguese than in English.  Of course I can communicate, I’m speaking right now but it’s not the same, and it might be the difference between the bylaws and the Academy.

                                                I’m not trying to \[bug\] the process; I think it’s fine.  The first one we need to go through and prove it works, then we go for requesting more translation, remote and so on.  So just to make this short point, thank you.\\

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Thank you, Raquel.  Before I comment on this I see that Avri raised her hand.  Avri’s also part of the Program Committee.

Avri Doria:                              This is Avri.  I assume I can be heard?  I hear some echo in the back.  I wanted to give a quick answer to both of those points, and I think that’s entirely correct, the first point, that yes, this is just for the pilot program that is directed purely at those that have been chosen – elected, selected, however that happened for the various leadership roles.  And that’s the reason for the absence of remote participation and the absence of translation.

                                                And I think that’s only that, and I think everyone was thinking that future programs – should this be successful, should we get to expand the program to greater number of participants – then yes, putting in an aspect of remote participation and dealing with multiple languages will become important considerations.

                                                In terms of the language use and the bylaws statement, I think that statement is only valid because we’re dealing with those who have been selected/elected for the leadership, for the bylaws.  They would not be able to function in English and so there’s sort of this emergence into ICANN culture, ICANN language, ICANN issues is well done in the issues that they have to cope in.  But I totally agree that when we start to expand the group that this is aimed at then certainly being able to work in multiple languages and the most appropriate languages – the one or two languages that are always the ultimate language…  We speak of Spanish, and we speak of French and then there’s many others.

                                                And so perhaps we also have to think about languages that match the locality that we’re in so that the local…  But this isn’t that program.  But I definitely see what you’re talking about.  Thanks.

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Thank you, Avri, for this addendum.  And yes, I’d like to underline we are talking about a pilot program with a very limited budget.  We have to look at how this program works and what should be improved.  Personally I am not convinced that this sort of program is designed for remote participation and being multilingual because as I already told everybody it is very much about interaction – interaction during breakfast, during lunch, during dinner, after dinner.  And we will not, or the essential things will happen in between the classroom sessions. 

So this is not only about knowledge transfer, which is an important thing of course, but it’s not only about knowledge transfer – it’s also very much about interaction between people who are supposed to work at least for the next few years with each other; to break down some walls in between those different constituencies to develop good collaborations for the future.  And these things cannot be very well transported or covered by remote participation tools and interpretation.  So that’s my absolutely personal point of view.

And I agree we need to prove the first pilot and make the next decision after the first pilot started.  This could not be an extended ICANN conference in the conference style.  So if there are no other comments I’d like to move to the next point, agenda Item #3 which is summarizing the discussion held in the Program Committee.  And then I would soon hand it over to Avri.  She proposed the very first draft curriculum which was then discussed in the ICANN Program Committee calls, and the \[extent\] of this discussion was forwarded to you on the mailing list.  It is also linked in the Wiki working space -- maybe I can ask staff to post this link right here in the chat so that everybody can easily access the draft curriculum?

The plan is to get this curriculum finalized or a draft curriculum finalized until mid-February, because then we are going to prepare our outreach activities to other constituencies.  We are thinking about having a webinar prior to the Costa Rica ICANN meeting to introduce the idea to the wider community, to the entire ICANN community – not only to At-Large; and to start with a discussion right away in Costa Rica, but I will talk about this later again.  For the moment I would ask the members of the Program Committee, Avri principally but also Carlos and Tijani who commented on this curriculum very actively to explain what the Program Committee has proposed a little bit further.  Avri, you have the floor please.

Avri Doria:                              Okay.  Thank you, and I must say upfront that I did not know that I was going to be speaking at this meeting until just before I was called on.  So I did not come prepared with anything to discuss the curriculum, but if someone could put it up either in the workspace or at least put up the URL for us so that everybody could see it, I think that would be good.

                                                On the other hand I’m very convinced that a program which is not designed for online use or which is not designed as an online program, we should not offer remote participation because this causes frustration on the other types of [lines], and I mean the remote participant now.  A face-to-face meeting is somewhere where the key proposal or the key element of the proposal is very much focused on the interaction and the socializing aspect.  So you won’t have the possibility to get translation everywhere because when you’re in a discussion with somebody you want everything [right] with you and this is a very important key element of this proposal, to force the cross-constituency discussions.  And on the other hand it also makes a big difference if you have a lively discussion in the classroom or even if it is not in a classroom it can be out, somewhere else.

                                                And we’re trying to avoid any conference style.  It should not be a conference where you take the mic; maybe mics will not even be needed in a small room with fifteen people or twenty people.  And if we don’t have all those technical facilities we cannot offer remote participation, Adobe Connect or a telephone line in an efficient manner which is frustrating for the remote participant on the other line.  The program is not designed for it, and in my point of view we are also choosing money that could be spent on a program which is designed for remote participation that [would be well used] then in an outreach capacity for the program. 

But this in our case it is not, so therefore also for budget reasons but budget should not be on the first place; it should be in the second place only, therefore we decided as a Program Committee not to offer translation and not to offer remote participation, Adobe Connect and things like this.  I see these things are generally very important but not for this face-to-face sort of basecamp which we are talking about.  Are there any quick, comments, questions?  Not to open the big discussion but just some comments that anyone would like to make right now?

If this is not the case then quickly…  I see Tijani raised his hand.  So as long as (inaudible) I will hand over the floor to Tijani.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Hello?  Hello? 

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Hello?  There is somebody else on the line.  We can hear you very far away.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Okay, so can you hear me now?

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, we hear you better now.

Tijani Ben Jemaa:                    Okay.  Yes, we decided in the Program Committee not to provide interpretation and not to provide translation, and not to provide remote participation, but we discussed and perhaps we approved that we will translate all the documents of the courses.  So yes, there is not interpretation but there is translation of the documents.

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, thank you, Tijani, for this reminder.  You are absolutely right and this also guides me to a proposal which I think was made by Raquel Gatto when she mentioned in her email on the mailing list that all documents we are using for the Academy should be offered in different languages to make it easier for the participants, for the Fellows, for the trainees to understand the content when they have the chance to read those documents in their own language.  I think we should do this and we are also thinking about offering mp3s and maybe translate them later on.

                                                But I will assume that these things once they are done can also be used for other capacity building programs and this is one of the longer-term proposals to develop all ICANN capacity building programs under one umbrella which could be named ICANN Academy, and then the documents for each course if necessary can be harmonized and synchronized.  And anyway, I think this goes in the right direction.  I see Raquel raised her hand.  Raquel, you have the floor, please.  Raquel, you might be muted.  We cannot hear you.

Raquel Gatto:                          Can you hear me now?

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Yes, we can hear you now.

Raquel Gatto:                          Oh great.  Thanks Sandra, and hello to you and all the participants, and thank you for mentioning the email.  That’s correct – I was mentioning that we cannot make double services of translation because we already do have some documents available.  But my point here now is to make sure I’m not missing one point: this idea to not have translation and remote participation is only for the first training, but it might be developed in further ICANN Academies.  This is the first point.

                                                And the second point is when we have in the bylaws that English is essential to communicate, it’s not the same as to have the better interpretation or the better expression of a participant.  I am also from a non-English native speaking country so at least I can say by myself that it’s much easier to learn in Portuguese than in English.  Of course I can communicate, I’m speaking right now but it’s not the same, and it might be the difference between the bylaws and the Academy.

                                                I’m not trying to [bug] the process; I think it’s fine.  The first one we need to go through and prove it works, then we go for requesting more translation, remote and so on.  So just to make this short point, thank you.

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Thank you, Raquel.  Before I comment on this I see that Avri raised her hand.  Avri’s also part of the Program Committee.

Avri Doria:                              This is Avri.  I assume I can be heard?  I hear some echo in the back.  I wanted to give a quick answer to both of those points, and I think that’s entirely correct, the first point, that yes, this is just for the pilot program that is directed purely at those that have been chosen – elected, selected, however that happened for the various leadership roles.  And that’s the reason for the absence of remote participation and the absence of translation.

                                                And I think that’s only that, and I think everyone was thinking that future programs – should this be successful, should we get to expand the program to greater number of participants – then yes, putting in an aspect of remote participation and dealing with multiple languages will become important considerations.

                                                In terms of the language use and the bylaws statement, I think that statement is only valid because we’re dealing with those who have been selected/elected for the leadership, for the bylaws.  They would not be able to function in English and so there’s sort of this emergence into ICANN culture, ICANN language, ICANN issues is well done in the issues that they have to cope in.  But I totally agree that when we start to expand the group that this is aimed at then certainly being able to work in multiple languages and the most appropriate languages – the one or two languages that are always the ultimate language…  We speak of Spanish, and we speak of French and then there’s many others.

                                                And so perhaps we also have to think about languages that match the locality that we’re in so that the local…  But this isn’t that program.  But I definitely see what you’re talking about.  Thanks.

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Thank you, Avri, for this addendum.  And yes, I’d like to underline we are talking about a pilot program with a very limited budget.  We have to look at how this program works and what should be improved.  Personally I am not convinced that this sort of program is designed for remote participation and being multilingual because as I already told everybody it is very much about interaction – interaction during breakfast, during lunch, during dinner, after dinner.  And we will not, or the essential things will happen in between the classroom sessions. 

So this is not only about knowledge transfer, which is an important thing of course, but it’s not only about knowledge transfer – it’s also very much about interaction between people who are supposed to work at least for the next few years with each other; to break down some walls in between those different constituencies to develop good collaborations for the future.  And these things cannot be very well transported or covered by remote participation tools and interpretation.  So that’s my absolutely personal point of view.

And I agree we need to prove the first pilot and make the next decision after the first pilot started.  This could not be an extended ICANN conference in the conference style.  So if there are no other comments I’d like to move to the next point, agenda Item #3 which is summarizing the discussion held in the Program Committee.  And then I would soon hand it over to Avri.  She proposed the very first draft curriculum which was then discussed in the ICANN Program Committee calls, and the [extent] of this discussion was forwarded to you on the mailing list.  It is also linked in the Wiki working space – maybe I can ask staff to post this link right here in the chat so that everybody can easily access the draft curriculum?

The plan is to get this curriculum finalized or a draft curriculum finalized until mid-February, because then we are going to prepare our outreach activities to other constituencies.  We are thinking about having a webinar prior to the Costa Rica ICANN meeting to introduce the idea to the wider community, to the entire ICANN community – not only to At-Large; and to start with a discussion right away in Costa Rica, but I will talk about this later again.  For the moment I would ask the members of the Program Committee, Avri principally but also Carlos and Tijani who commented on this curriculum very actively to explain what the Program Committee has proposed a little bit further.  Avri, you have the floor please.

Avri Doria:                              Okay.  Thank you, and I must say upfront that I did not know that I was going to be speaking at this meeting until just before I was called on.  So I did not come prepared with anything to discuss the curriculum, but if someone could put it up either in the workspace or at least put up the URL for us so that everybody could see it, I think that would be good.

                                                Anyhow, first Sandra mentioned this is a process, and since we’re already more than halfway through the meeting without having gotten to the content yet, basically the process was something was created on, I believe it was an [ether pad].  There were various comments going back and forth.  I tried to integrate as much as I could of the comments within a [path], and always keeping the comments.  A lot of the discussions and comments we had were similar to the discussions we’ve just had – why not more people?  Why not a greater class?  Why not a greater scope?  Why not translation?  Why not Wiki Markup                                                Anyhow, first Sandra mentioned this is a process, and since we’re already more than halfway through the meeting without having gotten to the content yet, basically the process was something was created on, I believe it was an \[ether pad\].  There were various comments going back and forth.  I tried to integrate as much as I could of the comments within a \[path\], and always keeping the comments.  A lot of the discussions and comments we had were similar to the discussions we’ve just had -- why not more people?  Why not a greater class?  Why not a greater scope?  Why not translation?  Why not remote?

                                                And we went through all of those discussions and tried to pare the curriculum down to be something that A.) could be done in the short amount of time, B.) would be concise enough but give people something.  So we basically looked at the three…  And I see that no one has put the URL there.  I would ask except I don’t know what it is…  So what was sent out to this group was basically my attempt to integrate the comments that people had given.  Since then we’ve had a couple discussions online; certainly Glenn and others went through and gave a very detailed set of comments.  I’ve tried to respond to them.  I haven’t made any changes in the curriculum based upon those comments yet. 

...

                                                I think it’s important to make sure that when you are talking about internet governance you’re not just talking about ICANN and the RIR holding pattern; you’re talking about the full dimension of it, the sensitivities, the political nature, the development-driven, etc.  So I think that that’s a good point about sort of the next level in terms of topics that are included.                                                The right juxtaposing property and human rights, and the same thing was actually intentional – and it’s intentional based upon that pretty much being the way it being exposed in ICANN; and it also actually being one of the ways in which it can be approached.  But again, it’s a top-level topic that breaks out and so the discussion won’t center around property rights or human rights, though I’m sure that argument could be made, but why there are human rights beyond property rights.are included.

                                                The right juxtaposing property and human rights, and the same thing was actually intentional – and it’s intentional based upon that pretty much being the way it being exposed in ICANN; and it also actually being one of the ways in which it can be approached.  But again, it’s a top-level topic that breaks out and so the discussion won’t center around property rights or human rights, though I’m sure that argument could be made, but why there are human rights beyond property rights.

                                                One of the problems, and this goes partially to things Bill talked about – one of the problems that I’ve seen in my [tenure] with ICANN is that people talk about “rights, rights, rights,” and you look at the second recommendation from the GNSO – “People’s rights must be defended.”  And then you say “Yes, I agree with that, and that includes human rights,” and we go “Whoa, human Wiki Markup                                                One of the problems, and this goes partially to things Bill talked about -- one of the problems that I’ve seen in my \[tenure\] with ICANN is that people talk about “rights, rights, rights,” and you look at the second recommendation from the GNSO -- “People’s rights must be defended.”  And then you say “Yes, I agree with that, and that includes human rights,” and we go “Whoa, human rights??”

                                                So I think that letting people know that whenever they say the word “rights” there’s many kinds that are in that and it’s a very important thing to get across to any new ICANN leaders, that “rights” is an expanded notion.

...

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Thank you, Avri.  From the discussion here we can even get an imagination or we can get how lively the discussion will be among the Fellows, and that the three-days’ program will not cover all of the topics in detail and there is not the possibility to go into the deep.  So therefore we should think or we should consider that the learning process does not stop after those three days, and there are quite a few very good tools proposed or proposals made on how to extend or what else can be used during the ICANN Academy. 

Wiki MarkupI just want to mention a few of them which were also mentioned here in the chat already: to use a \ [Moodle\] to set up a curriculum and to work after the ICANN Academy together.    It was also proposed peer-to-peer mentoring; video coverage was proposed which is available online after the Academy.    And I think these are all very important tools which will help us to support the learning process not only over those three days but to continue after the Academy as well.

And this is actually a point which brings me to the latest development.  Cheryl and Olivier were so kind and introduced be to Eberhard Lise from the ccNSO, and he is the one who is in charge of the so-called Tech Day which takes place every Monday during an ICANN meeting.  And Eberhard proposed for instance to use also the Tech Day, which is a very meaningful day to understand the technical background of running a ccTLD, to implement this day into the ICANN Academy.  And I think this is also a very valuable element of an Academy to say “Okay, we can give you an introduction here.  We cannot go into the deep on every topic because this is just not manageable in three days.  But you have the possibility when you attend the ICANN meeting, after the Academy you can go to the Tech Day, you can go to the beginners’ sessions.”  And I don’t know how many other possibilities can be used – also the peer-to-peer mentoring could start during that ICANN meeting.

...

Sandra Hoferichter:                 It’s a little bit better now but please speak very slow and clear, and go close to the mic.

Wiki MarkupSivasubramanian Muthusamy:           Muthusamy:           (inaudible) lessons of the Academy and make it available to the community, and \ [open the community for the landscape.    Do the lessons in a local language so ICANN will get the (inaudible) to act.

                                                The second point is we can simultaneously look at (inaudible) Framework.  That person could have it as a visual aid.

...

                                                So the purpose of this segment of the Public Participation meeting will be to explain the ICANN Academy to the rest of the community and to collect feedback, to fine tune the proposal for the ICANN Academy.  And Sandra, I’m sorry if you might be just learning this now but you will have to be in attendance for this.  I’ve just received this from Sebastien.  I gather Sebastien is on the line – are there a few more words to say on this?
unmigrated-wiki-markup

Sebastien Bachollet:                Thank you, Olivier, it’s Sebastien Bachollet.  I have nothing, not too much to add, just to tell you that my goal in pushing for that was to have this I will say \[en deux\] as a preliminary endorsement by the Public Participation Committee and fully by the Board, and that we can outreach to all the constituencies during the Bachollet:                Thank you, Olivier, it’s Sebastien Bachollet.  I have nothing, not too much to add, just to tell you that my goal in pushing for that was to have this I will say [en deux] as a preliminary endorsement by the Public Participation Committee and fully by the Board, and that we can outreach to all the constituencies during the meeting.

                                                One of the problems, I know that it will be very difficult to find slots to talk about any subject.  We would like, too, and I was hoping through the PPC that it will be easier to have a slot and a slot with not too much competition on that subject.  Of course as the PPC we have to discuss some other topics, but the other topics could also interest you very broadly because it’s around the question of the comment period.  And I know that you already have started to think about this subject, and some of you participated with the trial on the next way of doing comments.

...

Sandra Hoferichter:                 And circulated later on in the Working Group for approval. Okay, so Tijani, any additional comments please?

Wiki MarkupTijani Ben Jemaa:                    Yes, Sandra.  May I ask that when we have our next Committee meeting we should have already the text to discuss about, so we will not come to the next call of the \[Committee without something on the docket\].\\ Wiki MarkupSandra Hoferichter:                 Okay.  That’s a good suggestion, I take note of that.  Maybe I’ll come back to you.  \[laughing\]  Okay.  So are there any other questions which need to be clarified in this call?  Please raise your hand or raise your voice.  If not…&nbspJemaa:                    Yes, Sandra.  May I ask that when we have our next Committee meeting we should have already the text to discuss about, so we will not come to the next call of the [Committee without something on the docket].

Sandra Hoferichter:                 Okay.  That’s a good suggestion, I take note of that.  Maybe I’ll come back to you.  [laughing]  Okay.  So are there any other questions which need to be clarified in this call?  Please raise your hand or raise your voice.  If not…  Fatima, Fatima raised her hand.  Fatima, you have the floor please.; Fatima, Fatima raised her hand.  Fatima, you have the floor please.\\

Fatima Cambronero:               Hi, Sandra, can you hear me?

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                                                Thank you, everybody.  Have a good day, sleep well, have a good rest of the working day wherever you are based.  And thank you for joining us tonight.

Wiki Markup\[End of Transcript\]\\