Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, good morning everyone. Well, good say everyone because I know it's not morning for everyone. Good day, good afternoon, and welcome to the Secretariat's Call for Monday the 13th of February 2012. So just want to do one more role call. I think Gisella can do the honor.
Gisella Gruber: Actually I'll do with pleasure and today's call we have Tijani Ben Jemaa, Siva Muthusamy, Dev Anand Teelucksingh, Beau Brendler, Charles Mok, Fatima Seye Sylla. We have apologies from Holly Raiche, Aziz Hilali, [inaudible 00:00:47] Jose Arce, and Darlene Thompson. From staff on today's call we have Silvia Vivanco, Heidi Ullrich, and myself Gisella Gruber. I hope I haven't left anyone off the list, if I could also please remind you all to state your names for transcript purposes and an update, Wolf Ludwig will be joining us shortly on the call. Thank you, over to you Dev.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you Gisella. Okay, has everyone looked at the agenda and is okay with the agenda. I just posted a link in the chat to the wiki page. Does anybody want to add anything to the agenda? Okay, then the agenda is adopted.
Okay, so we've done the role call which was item #2 and now on item #3, discuss agenda items for At Large Leadership Meeting in Costa Rica. One of the things that we were discussing in Dakar was regarding inactive or what I [inaudible 00:02:03] non-quorate At Large structures. And as you may remember in Dakar we discussed this and there were two concerns. One, while there was agreement that there should be some sort of method for decertifying the ALSs that are not contributing to the quorum. There was no agreement between the RALOs to actually agree on a common set of criteria and I think what came out of the discussions in Dakar was that each RALO would like to set its own threshold for its measurements of involvement in their RALO.
So that was one thing and the second thing was that we should be sensitive to this because we are all volunteer organizations. You know asking people to be attentive and being monitored and critiqued on their lack of engagement or involvement in their RALO we have to be sensitive to that. And so that was my suggestion during that call in Dakar was to say well maybe you should call it non-quorate ALSs because some ALSs are just comfortable with just receiving information and not ready to be engaged as perhaps some RALO chairs or RALO leaders would like, but they're happy to receive the information and pass it on and so forth.
So that was in the just of the discussions in Dakar. Does anybody have anything to add or have I misinterpreted what was said at the previous call in Dakar because we have not had any call since Dakar? Tijani, I see your hand raised, please go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, thank you Dev. If I remember well in Dakar, we said that we need a common framework. It means a common, if you want, set of criteria, but the threshold inside each criteria will be set by the RALO itself. That means that we all use the same rules, but with different parameters if you want.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thanks for mentioning that. That is indeed correct, that was the difficulty because whether we tried to discuss the threshold everybody had different interpretations. We couldn't really get consensus on the thresholds, so agreed. Anybody else? Okay, well what are our next steps for this criteria to [inaudible 00:05:16]? My thinking would be should try to drop the framework and at least have a discussion in Costa Rica to see whether we can get agreement on the frameworks and then perhaps each RALO by then also have some ideas of the thresholds that are needed for their RALO.
Any thoughts, any disagreements, agreements? Okay, I see an agreement from Tijani and I see Beau has also agreed on this. I'm not seeing anyone objecting, so I guess the next question would be who would be willing to help work on the proposal regarding the framework for dealing with inactive or non-quorate ALSs?
I'll be willing to work on it. I see Wolf has also agreed.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Me too.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Alright, well in that case then let's try to share documents, a Google Document, and let's try to put some text together and see whether we can come up with this draft framework with the document. I don't know if you want to try to do that now. I'm not thinking that's the right thing. I don't know if anyone has prepared for it, but I just put some links in the chat here. So yes, that will be an action item Heidi that we will now work on developing framework for dealing with inactive/non-quorate ALSs. I see Wolf has his hand up. Wolf, please go ahead.
Wolf Ludwig: Yes, I think a good starting point would be compiling some text elements we had already. I remember text Tijani. I'd say it's a text from my side and I think one from Darlene, at least three, four, or even five. And if it takes this input as a basis then we can see what elements are missing because so far we agreed we should have some common basic guidelines for dealing with inactive ALSs, but also allowing some regional particularities. And I think this would be a good way forward to start with a compilation and then a rediscuss what elements are missing, what are the directions and what are the comments. Thanks.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Alright, thank you Wolf. Okay, I just posted in the chat the documents I had from that meeting which was the documents from LARALO, EURALO, and AFRALO. I don't think there were any other documents, but sorry Tijani your hand is raised.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you. First, not all [inaudible 00:08:42] had those to put some rules or some criteria that they are losing [inaudible 00:08:48] more or less, but we can include them. Another point, please Dev don't choose Google Docs. Please use our wiki. We have a wiki page for us, so we can use it. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, point taken. Okay certainly. Thanks Tijani. I see NARALO already has these rules already enshrined in their rules of procedure on how to deal with inactive ALSs, so NARALO has this information already and yes agreed. Okay, let's create the wiki page on this on coming up with the common framework for dealing with inactive/non-quorate ALSs. Okay and we can probably also put these documents that we have so far as a starting point on that wiki page.
So yes, indeed that's an action item, to create a wiki page for coming up with the framework to deal with inactive/non-quorate ALSs and upload those three documents that we have from AFRALO, LACRALO, and EURALO. Alright and perhaps an excerpt from the NARALOs Rules and Procedure on how NARALO deals with inactive ALSs. Okay, so at least we know what we have to do regarding that one.
Another agenda item that was also discussed in Dakar or perhaps probably in great a detail was the criteria to measure involvement in RALO/ALAC. Okay, actually this is probably the same thing, criteria to measure involvement in RALO/ALAC and decertification. It touches on it but I think the thinking is, and I'm not sure if we are the ones that are suppose to do it, but how do we measure the involvement of ALAC representatives from the RALOs in ALAC and should we be coming up with criteria to measure their involvement and so forth. Tijani I see your hand raised.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you. I think that is a Working Group called Metrics Working Group that will work on it and it is chaired by Cheryl. So, I don't think we need to do twice the same thing but we will be under this Working Group with [inaudible 00:11:44].
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, the Metrics Group was formed. I don't think it has had a first call yet. I could be wrong.
Heidi Ullrich: Dev, this is Heidi.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Heidi please go ahead.
Heidi Ullrich: No, it has not yet formed yet. We are preparing for that and Cheryl who will be, at least, interim chair is preparing to do a first call for membership shortly.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Heidi. Okay, so regarding the criteria to measure involvement we'll punt that to this Metrics Group. Similarly I see on the agenda a development of criteria for recall of ALAC members. So, I think then again that the statute should also be in the Metrics Group as well, the development of criteria. I think that what's also very important is improving regional involvement in the policy advice process. And I see Beau has also mentioning in the comments that how to get more members and perhaps get more members involved in our policy advice process. Tijani you are listed as the moderator for this discussion. Are you wishing to say a few words?
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you Dev. I can say, I think I'm not mistaken, that is not the real involvement of the region in the policy advice of ALAC right now. We have some, very few, contribution from LACRALO, sometimes from NARALO. It's really occasionally. There is not a real contribution, so I do think it is an issue that we have to address. It is our job to make them participate. So, AFRALO did Capacity Building Program in Dakar and they have the aim to make people participate because we thought and we knew that they didn't understand well what they received.
All the policy documents that they received they didn't understand it and so I think that we thought that the Capacity Building Program would make them better understand and better participate. What we have not said is that the Capacity Building Program, the face-to-face Capacity Building Program, was very good but it wasn't enough. So, that's why and AFRALO will [inaudible 00:14:40] this year to undertake a virtual Capacity Building Program, a virtual if you want training, via online training, via webinar, etc., to follow-up on the Capacity Building in Dakar.
So, I think that we need to do something to make our region better participate in the policy advice.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thanks Tijani. Just looking at the comments here and I have to say the Capacity Building exercises I think would be a benefit to any ALSs, especially those ALSs that are on the edges so to speak. I think I can relate it to personal experience. I had no real concept of the amount of work that ALAC did and the amount of meetings and so forth until I actually attended them, a ICANN meeting in 2009. And I also will credit the summit actually for that because by being involved in the global At Large Working Groups, and I was in Work Group 3 regarding the gTLD Program, and I think that inspired me to get more involved in it. So, I see some of the comments here and Beau. I don't know if he wishes to speak on it, that you know we do need another summit. I would say definitely that needs to be done. Wolf go ahead.
Wolf Ludwig: I recently discussed this issue with Heidi and Olivier in the context of regional requests for the fiscal year and my main point was I'm observing a lack in motivation among our members. We had completely different dynamic at EURALO, I would say two years ago, a lot of more response from let's say at least half of them. But due to the fact that at our last General Assemblies after 2009, where we all had our General Assemblies inline with a Summit in Mexico, 2010 we didn't have a face-to-face General Assembly, 2011 neither, and there are only a few members who could afford to show up by their own means and this was far from being what I would call inclusive. And inclusiveness needs some more incentives, incentives in the way I think for the community building in the region.
It's very important to have as an opportunity for a face-to-face meeting at least every second year over a period of three years. It's getting very difficult and I somehow can bridge this situation when I'm at conferences in Germany where I then have the opportunity to meet several of the members I don't see otherwise or at the [inaudible 00:19:0]. But the incentive point I think is a very crucial one, otherwise a lot of our members slowly by slowly will lose interest and with losing interest they will lose commitment. Thanks.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thank you Wolf. Beau, pleas go ahead.
Beau Brendler: Thank you. You know I can't really say it any better then Wolf did. Pretty much everything he just said is exactly the situation we're in. I mean I just feel like, you know, we're not giving the ALSs enough of a stake in the process and I'm not saying we're necessarily at fault for that. I just think the way that the system has been setup I don't really see a big give and take between the RALO Leadership and the ALSs and that's not to take anything away from the ALSs and any RALO.
I mean they're all good people and that sort of thing, but I don't think there's enough being done to communicate with them why they should be involved. And, you know, I just think back to the summer when everybody was together and I just think about how many contributions came forth from people who I didn't even know were in a RALO you know and if we don't give the ALSs some stronger stake in taking part I'm not entirely sure that this system is working too well at least in NA. Again, that's not a criticism of NA or of any of the leadership or anything like that. I think it's more a criticism of the system.
So you know, and I see Heidi has put up a question, "More work on Outreach is where the reach is needed." Yeah, I mean to me it's Outreach at this point and my colleagues. Evan has put in a request for more money to have a presence at some consumer type tradeshows to interest people in ICANN activities and we have a NARALO General Assembly probably coming up in Toronto, but to me nothing matched what we got out of the summit so.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: No, I agree Beau. I mean and the thing for the summit is because we met for the first time people from other regions and I think that's important too. Because I think by having that summit, for me anyway, I felt like okay this is a really a global thing and I'm seeing here different view points about different issues and I think that would stir the interest I think. I saw Tijani had his hand up.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you. I absolutely agree with Wolf when he said it is more difficult to keep our ALSs then to recruit new ones. But I have a question, is it the condition to have a face-to-face meeting to make the ALSs and members of RALOs active in the process? Is it the only way to make them active?
It's a problem because I know that it is very costly and we are trying now to make the ALSs have a General Assembly once every three years, but I hope it will work, but I don't know if ICANN will accept it. But if we don't have this how to do?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, the Financial Budget Subcommittee did send a document to Xavier of ICANN Finance regarding a timeline for how RALOs want their General Assemblies and a possible idea for having a summit in I think it was 2016, but I don't have that document in front of me. Beau sorry, your hand is up. Please go ahead.
Beau Brendler: No, that's okay. I just had kind of an add-on comment to what I --
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Sure, go for it.
Beau Brendler: You know may I suggest a radical idea for the future, which is in NA we don't even really have a bench of people for leadership. I mean nobody. You know I was elected to the Chairmanship of NARALO because no one else wanted to do it and that's a fairly common situation in North America. And maybe if there was some way that we could combine the elections of our officers with a summit, you know what I mean?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I think so, yeah.
Beau Brendler: If we can have like elections take place physically as suppose to the way that they're doing now maybe that would help also, to give people a since of franchising, but we don't really have a developed leadership bench. I don't mean to be airing any RALOs dirty laundry in public here and it's not a criticism of anybody. It's actually more sort of an endorsement of all the hard work that a small group of people have done, but that's the situation we're in.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I understand. Well and in the At Large Improvements Taskforce I think that there's been a recommendation. I can't remember and don't quote me on which number that it is. I can't remember the document, but they were to create a Working Group on Outreach to try to deal with it, to try to grapple with this issue on how to reach perspective new ALSs. And also reach our existing ALSs, those who are not really getting involved as we would like them to be involved in the policy process. So that's one thing, the proposed Outreach Group. I believe that group would then be decided by the ALAC in Costa Rica. Tijani please go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, but I think that the face-to-face meeting if not as efficient to make [inaudible 00:26:13]. I think that we need to make the people aware of the policy status are dealt with in ICANN during the period. So, we need to give them information and education if you want to be able to comment, to be able to participate even if they come and attend the General Assembly or the summit. If they don't have the necessary knowledge they will not contribute in a good manner. Thank you.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thanks Tijani. Indeed I think obviously we have to try to find ways. I mean face-to-face is important yes, I think everybody has agreement on that. But as you said it is a costly exercise and we have to look at ways especially as a lot of the work happens not face-to-face like calls like this, that we try to get more people involved and try to figure out other alternatives to getting those ALSs involved. So, I do agree. I don't know if I have an answer for it, but this is something where I think we all have to put our heads together and try to solve.
Heidi has posted a link to the event roadmap. Thanks Heidi. That was submitted from the Finance and Budget Subcommittee. Okay, so let's see. What will be our next step on this? Is our next step to work on the At Large improvements on these related items or when the Outreach Working Group is formed then join that group and then see how we can effectively do Outreach to all these ALSs, perspective and new. Tijani go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Are you speaking about item #4 of the agenda?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Not yet, improving regional Involvement in the policy advice process.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: I just wanted to close it off and move on to that.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: My suggestion would about the next steps. If I wanted to take an action item out of this was to be to, well, let's work on the improvement plan. And where it calls for Outreach Working Group, if you agree with the concept of having an At Large Outreach Working Group, let's join that and then see how best we can provide Inreach and Outreach to perspective ALSs and to existing ALSs. Okay, Tijani please go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, I agree with you. The Outreach Working Group is necessary. I think it's a very good starting point, but also we have to work with the Subcommittee on finance and budget and try to find a way since you say that the face-to-face meeting is the most important thing to make people participate. So, we have to work with this Subcommittee to see how we can convince the ALAC [inaudible 00:29:51] to permit or to look for General Assemblies very often.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, agreed. Alright great, any more comments on this topic because I just want to move ahead to the next one because its 24 minutes passed the hour. Okay great.
Alright, let's move on ahead to agenda item #4, review and next step of the Secretariat Improvement Plan. Now actually I don't know if the link is in the agenda. Yes, it is in the agenda. Now this Secretariat Improvement Plan actually started in late 2009 and the idea was to try to have a spreadsheet of our day's proposals and improvements and that this would be used to track how we are implementing these proposals and hopefully cross them off.
I'm beginning to think at looking at this that perhaps the amount of good that went into the At Large improvements has superseded this document because I have to admit that we don't really around to really clearing items off. But I just want hear persons thoughts of whether we should just not do a Secretariat Improvement Plan because the At Large improvements has superseded it and many of the implementations coming out of the At Large improvements is, I think, already covered. It covers all of the items in the Secretariat Improvement Plan and then more. Any initial thoughts to this or do we think we still need to keep it and update it and modify it? Tijani.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you Dev. I think that the improvement of Secretariat is something very important and that you are right, our previous work has to be updated. It's really now old work and we have to update it according to the At Large improvement and according to our own needs, our own things. We have a lot of things that are particular to the region and each region has its particular item, so if we try to find a way to improve our work as regions it could be a good thing.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, thank you Tijani. So, if I understand you correctly, it's really to update this document inline with the recommendations coming out of At Large improvements is essentially what you're saying. So, you're saying we should keep this proposal and look to update it too. Okay, is that right if I understood you correctly? Does anybody have any other thoughts on this? Okay Wolf, please go ahead.
Wolf Ludwig: I think this document, if I remember where it was created at the daily meeting in the spring of 2008 if I'm not wrong, and we updated this in the following year according to our discussions, etc., and if I compare this document now which is more then three years old, I think it's a EURALO level at least. There are some emphasizes, what has changed in the time between and I'm thinking more and more about a particular strategy for how improving Outreach and Inreach which are two different issues.
Those are big challenges for us, but I think you cannot just approach this, let's say, in a bureaucratic way. I think for the RALOs to improve such a problem I think each RALO needs to have its own strategy according to the regional, cultural, or whatsoever conditions and circumstances. And I would like to see a discussion on a strategic element of the Secretariat in the future.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, does anybody have any thoughts regarding the Improvements plan? So the thing to keep it lets us really update it properly and to keep it inline with what's happening in improvements and to our specific RALOs. So any other further thoughts? Alright, so let's then look to review the Secretariat Improvement Plan, but I think I do want to see some of these things that they have already implemented in Improvements. Let's at least take them out so at least we know that this is being worked on and so forth. So, that's our action for to do in Costa Rica.
Very well item #5 on the agenda, the LAC RALO Costa Rica events. Well, I guess I'll give the update to this. The last two weeks we've just received the very wonderful news that ICANN has agreed to fund a series of LAC RALO events in Costa Rica, namely a Capacity Building Session for ALS structures attending, a Showcase, well the LAC RALO Showcase, and a General Assembly for us to discuss our previous issues. So a lot of work is already starting on this because we had a very late notice, so now you know we put together the list of ALSs that are attending.
There are at least 20. I would say only like out of the 38 I think only 5 ALSs are not attending, so we have a good number of ALSs attending. And right now we have a lot of meetings scheduled essentially because what we're going to do is work with the Fellowship. So the Fellowship meetings will also have interpretation, so that will be that from 7:00 to 9:00. We'll split the time between attending the Fellowship meeting and having our own session on Capacity Training. We will then have like three meetings for discussions from 13:00 to 15:00 hours on Monday General Assembly. The second General Assembly session from 10:30 to 12:30 on Wednesday and on Thursday we have a third General Assembly from 10:30 to 1:30.
One of our difficulties is that our ability to understand each other and this has lead to like well more a lack of understanding between each other, so I'm looking forward to trying to having these Capacity Sessions, to having the face-to-face discussions to try to breakdown the reasons why people aren't participating and so forth. I hope to come with some sustainable solutions, to [inaudible 00:39:06] after Costa Rica. I'm not being this is just a one-off event.
So, we should be updating a lot of our wiki spaces during this week and we're having like at least two calls a week actually to try to implement the details of the Showcase and of course all of these events. And there is a lot of discussion because practically all the ALSs are very happy that this has happened. So, we are grateful to ICANN obviously and to the ALAC staff and to ALAC and to the staff for pushing hard to make this happen. So it's going to be a very busy three weeks and then a very busy Costa Rica event, but I think its going to be fantastic. Any thoughts, any questions? I'll be willing to answer. Tijani please go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Thank you Dev. If I understood you well you will do, for example, from 7:00 to 8:00 the [inaudible 00:40:27] Fellowship Training and then you would do from 8:00 to 9:00 the LAC RALO Capacity Building?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, that is to try to combine the sessions because there would have been a lot of overlap, but, yeah, that's the thinking so far.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Okay, did you speak with Janice?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yes, we have made contact with Janice. The only thing is that we don't know exactly what her speaker schedule is during those things and she's actually working on that as well. I think behind the scenes At Large staff and Janice have met and agreed to collaborate, so we're not springing any of this on Janice. She's aware of this. She's welcomed it and I'm sure as she comes up with her schedule she will inform us so we try not to overlap on each other.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: The problem I had with this concept is because I wanted to collaborate with the Fellowship Program in Dakar, but the problem was that at the last minute they didn't have their schedule. They didn't give the program of their Capacity Building Program, so we were obliged to do our own program [inaudible 00:41:57] from there. But if we can collaborate with them it will be very good because we will make use of the efforts of everybody to make everybody well served.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Thanks Tijani. Yes indeed because I hope it doesn't come to that situation because I mean then we would have to possibly duplicate efforts there because we're just simply not too sure of the scheduling. I know its three weeks, but hopefully within this week it will be a finalization or affirming up of the Fellowship schedule and then we could affirm up our schedule on our end and make sure we're coordinated to that aspect so indeed. Tijani please.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, I have another question, not a question but advice perhaps. Please try to inform the [inaudible 00:43:02] Chairs, the people who we give the [inaudible 00:43:04] to do them in a [inaudible 00:43:09] way to be well in this to. Because they made a lot of it fun for us, but the problem is that the presentation was a standard presentation that we do for us and for others. So, it is not for Capacity Building. It is not done for Capacity Building, it is done for presentation understand?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Yeah.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Try to make them aware that you need them to deliver special material that will be taught to people who are, I would not say newcomers, but almost newcomers.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Indeed. Thanks Tijani. We will have to try take that into mind. Yes, agreed. In fact as Cheryl has also mentioned that one of the things proposed was to do workshops on the Thursday sessions. So, we'll breakup into like 3 or 4 groups on the previous topic issues and then have a discussion on it. It's similar to what happens at IGF, I guess, or a pre-IGF meetings, so that is also being looked at. We are getting all the ALSs involved and in the fact that it's not just keeping quiet but actually getting them involved in a topic issue. So that's one of the things we're also looking at. Okay, any other business?
I think that we can move on to the other action item which is any other business? Does anybody have any questions, comments, concerns, or think that the Secretariat should be, should do, now's the time to say it.
Okay, no other business. I think what we have covered in our agenda, the action items coming out of this meeting regarding developing a framework for dealing with inactive/non-quorate ALSs and looking to improve the Secretariat Improvement Plan in Dakar to bring it more inline with RALO needs and also inline with the At Large Improvements. There's no other thing that the Secretariat actually needs to look at. Any questions or comments?
Okay I think we can then conclude this call. Let me ask a question though, I do have one question regarding this framework. Do you think we can work online and on the wiki directly or do we need another conference call? Any immediate thoughts on this?
Fatimata Seye Sylla: This is Fatimata.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Hi Fatimata, please go ahead.
Fatimata Seye Sylla: We have incomplete [inaudible 00:46:35] issues that we have to [inaudible 46:38].
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, so you think we do need another meeting to discuss the framework and so forth. Any other thoughts or comments on this, to have another conference call just before Costa Rica? Tijani please go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: I am asking you is there any required item to discuss before Costa Rica?
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well, the one item would be Tijani, if I would say, to look at the framework. I mean is it that we need to have a conference call to really discuss that in any detail or do we need to just work online with it and we just post to comments and we use the wiki space to make comments and make adjustments?
Tijani Ben Jemaa: I do think that we need to work on the wiki and perhaps on the mailing list, but I don't think we need another call.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Okay, I'm seeing in the chat, only another conference call only if necessary. Okay, well I suspect then the thing to do will be as we work on this document and if there's a real need to have it then we'll try to have or organize a conference call before Costa Rica. There's not much time, I mean it's literally three weeks left really when you think about it. There's only three weeks left so there's not that much time, so we do have to really work on that framework probably at least at the beginning of this week and see how much progress we made on it. And then only to like say towards the end of the second week if we wanted to have a quick call in the third week, so now we won't do it. Let's work on the wiki for now and then only if there's a need to then we'll have a conference call before Costa Rica. Okay, Tijani go ahead.
Tijani Ben Jemaa: Yes, one action item that we have to put is that once the wiki pages is already done and the proposals of the RALOs are already put in, we need to make a call for all the ALSs, a call for all the RALOs to comment and to provide input. Because the three regions have already gave their point of view, so we need comment on them already.
Dev Anand Teelucksingh: Well it's also integrating those frameworks, well integrating those comments into one document, into one proposal really is what we need to do between now and Costa Rica. So, I think we just have to study it, I mean we have not really looked at it since Dakar. But as the meeting is coming up we should really take a good look at this document, at all three documents, and then try to come up with a proposed framework and see. So, once the wiki page goes up and let's start working on it online and see whether we can really get a common framework and then leave the framework up to RALOs themselves to, parameters I should say as to the upper limits or the lower limits on which the criteria is evaluated for ALSs and LAC RALOs.
Okay, well great we have five more minutes, so we can end the call the cal early and everybody can have five minutes to get a cup of coffee or tea and carry on the rest of our day. Well with this I'll close the meeting and thank you all for attending the call. Okay and see you all soon in Costa Rica and online. Bye-Bye.
