Members: Alan Greenberg, Andreea Brambilla, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Finn Petersen, Fiona Asonga, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Kavouss Arasteh, Michael Abejuela, Olga Cavalli, Robin Gross, Sebastien Bachollet, Thomas Rickert, Tijani Ben Jemaa (14)
Participants: Andrew Mack, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Barrack Otieno, Brian Scarpelli, Christopher Wilkinson, Collin Kurre, David McAuley, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Jeff Neuman, Jorge Cancio, Julf Helsingius, Khaled Koubaa, Kris Seeburn, Lori Schulman, Milton Mueller, Niels ten Oever, Phil Marano, Philip Corwin, Stephen Deerhake, Tatiana Tropina, Wale Bakare (24)
Observers/Guests: Dina Solveig Jalkanen
ICANN Organization: Brenda Brewer, Bernard Turcotte, Elizabeth AndrewsNathalie Vergnolle, Patrick Dodson, Yvette Guigneaux
Apologies: Rosalía Morales, Leon Sanchez, Matthew Shears
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
Agenda
1. Introduction, update to SOIs, reminder on standards of behavior
2. Review of Agenda
3. Administration
4. Legal Committee Update
5. Point on Quorum (held over from last plenary)
6. Second Reading of the draft recommendations of the Diversity sub-group.
7. First reading of the final recommendations of the SOAC Accountability sub-group.
8. First reading of the final recommendations of the Human Rights sub-group.
9. First reading of the draft recommendation of the Ombuds sub-group
10. First reading of the draft recommendation of the Staff Accountability sub-group.
11. AOB
12. Next Plenaries
13. Adjournment
Raw Caption Notes
Decisions:
- The Ombuds report is not accepted by the plenary for a first reading. The plenary asks the sub-group to address the points made at the meeting and re-submit a version which addresses these concerns for the meeting of 11 October if possible.
- Next meeting: 1300UTC - 11 October 2017
Action Items:
- Ombus sub-group – re-submit their draft recommendations for a first reading by the plenary.
Requests:
- Reminder to all that this is the home stretch if documents do not complete a first reading at the 18 October plenary they cannot complete their public consultation in time and will not be included in the final report of WS2.
Documents
AC Chat
Brenda Brewer: (9/28/2017 13:10) Good day! Welcome to WS2 CCWG Accountability Plenary Meeting #22 on 28 September 2017 @ 19:00 UTC.
Brenda Brewer: (13:10) This meeting will be recorded. Please mute your phone when not speaking by pressing *6 (star 6). *6 will also unmute.
Brenda Brewer: (13:10) Please state your name when speaking for captioning/transcription. Thank you!
Kavouss Arasteh: (13:37) Hi Brenda
Kavouss Arasteh: (13:38) hi Niels
Brenda Brewer: (13:43) Hello!
Niels ten Oever: (13:47) Hi Kavouss, Hi Brenda, Hi Yvette
Yvette Guigneaux: (13:49) Hi there Niels & everyone
olga: (13:50) Hello all from Buenos Aires!!
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:52) hi all
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:52) Hi niels...
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:52) how is that PhD working out?
Niels ten Oever: (13:53) I think it's too early to tell :))
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:54) i know... so you got your write up ideas
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:54) I've done two with a PhD and then a Post Doc to another DSc..i know the work :)
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:55) But am used to helping students :)
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:55) I would wish you loads of luck and courage in preparing
Niels ten Oever: (13:56) Thanks a lot! I will probably need it :D
Brenda Brewer: (13:56) Kavouss, we are having trouble reaching your hotel number
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (13:56) Well if you are confident and you get a good guide am sure it works out
Kavouss Arasteh: (13:58) Pls kindly advise the operator to dial me up Abu Dhabi Number
Brenda Brewer: (13:58) I have given that number, Kavouss, and they are having issues today. Yesterday it worked fine.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (13:59) Hi all
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (13:59) hi all
Julf Helsingius: (13:59) hi
Michael Abejuela (ASO): (13:59) Hello everyone
Brenda Brewer: (14:00) Happy to see Kavouss' number has been connected now
Khaled KOUBAA: (14:00) Hello everyone
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:00) we will kick off at 2 past
Julf Helsingius: (14:01) Bit of backjground hiss there
Niels ten Oever: (14:01) Are you more talkative today Jordan?
David McAuley (RySG): (14:02) does anyone else hear pinging in background on phone?
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (14:03) no, I don't, David
Bernnard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:03) no
David McAuley (RySG): (14:03) Thanks - must be my line
David McAuley (RySG): (14:04) Now lost line completely - will dial back in
David McAuley (RySG): (14:05) Phone battery dead - only on adobe
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:06) @David - Getting you a Lewis Roca promo charge bank for next ICANN meeting.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:06) O do not remember that being said rather the oposite in fact
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:06) We hope that this call will take only an hour, but it is up to all the participants
David McAuley (RySG): (14:08) thanks @Anne
Bernnard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:08) Sebastien you are now a presenter
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:11) Sebastien if you use the arrows at the bottom left of the screen it will skip full slides
Lori Schulman: (14:14) Hello
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (14:15) HI Lori
Lori Schulman: (14:15) My apologies for yesterday. Glad I could make it today. Only 5 hours of ICANN calls today....
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (14:15) Thanks for joining under these cuircustances, Lori
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:16) MY LINSE IS INTERRUPTED
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:17) Hi Lori
Yvette Guigneaux: (14:17) working on getting your line back Kavouss
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:17) TKS
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:18) WAITING FOR DIAL
Yvette Guigneaux: (14:19) understood Kavouss - working on dial out now
Yvette Guigneaux: (14:21) ok Kavouss, your line should be good now
David McAuley (RySG): (14:21) Milton makes a fair point
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (14:21) I agree.
Milton Mueller: (14:22) oh so it's not an accountability function it's about personal disputes?
David McAuley (RySG): (14:22) OK, good to know
Farzaneh Badii: (14:22) well we should say that it won't resolve policy disputes. clearly
Milton Mueller: (14:23) well does the Ombuds overrule policy decisions made by SOs?
Farzaneh Badii: (14:23) no it should not
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:24) The Ombuds office could not :overrule" anything
Farzaneh Badii: (14:24) it should not give an opinion about any substantive poicy matters.
Stephen Deerhake: (14:24) Any effort by the Ombuds attempting to make a policy decision (or overrde same) of the ccNSO is a non-starter.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:25) Not being proposed at all STephen
Farzaneh Badii: (14:25) regardless of the nonbinding nature it should not recommend anything regarding substantive matters . we should be clear on that
Wale Bakare: (14:25) Hi all
Milton Mueller: (14:26) Hello Wale
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:26) there is no chance of that, Stephen
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:26) Noted NP
Milton Mueller: (14:26) same should be true for GNSO
Wale Bakare: (14:26) Thanks Milton, good afternoon/evening
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:27) Good edit suggestions Laoi .... Happy to support
Milton Mueller: (14:28) What's a KPI?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:28) Lori (sorry typos)
Tatiana Tropina: (14:28) Key Performance Indicator
Milton Mueller: (14:28) thx
Brenda Brewer: (14:28) Reminder: Please state your name when speaking for captioning/transcription. Thank you!
Milton Mueller: (14:28) yes, hard to measure fairness
Tatiana Tropina: (14:29) Milton this is why I kinda always have problems with KPIs they are mostly quantitative
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:29) Time taken to respond and report all sorts of things can be "measured? as performance indicators
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:29) deffinatly Seb
Jeff Neuman: (14:29) KPIs can be stablished on things like responsiveness, processing complaints, etc
Jeff Neuman: (14:29) Cheryl i should have read your response :)
Jeff Neuman: (14:30) But there are plenty areas of KPIs
Lori Schulman: (14:30) thank you
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:30) time check - 90 minutes left in call
Jeff Neuman: (14:30) MTTR (Mean time to respond)
Jeff Neuman: (14:30) Satisfaction survey results
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:33) The Scope of the Ombuds Office is quite clear IMO
Jeff Neuman: (14:33) Isnt ICANN working on that to distinguish between the Ombudsman and the Complaints Officer
Farzaneh Badii: (14:33) I agree with Kavouss
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:33) Yes Jeff I believe so
Jeff Neuman: (14:34) We should not reinvent the wheel and look at that
Farzaneh Badii: (14:34) report should say what is not within the scope of ombuds (including substantive policy)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:34) there is no reinvention intended
Farzaneh Badii: (14:34) it should be in the report
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:35) it is a set of imporvements suggestions to ensure our ICANN Ombuds practice is based on the External Review input to continuously improve and be in line with Ombuds Best Practices
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:35) Lori
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (14:37) Agree with Farzaneh about the need to clarify scope (including limitations) in the report.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:38) If there is only 1 person in the office it's hard to have gender diversity
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:38) if there is 3 then some diversity is expected
Lori Schulman: (14:38) Agree on gender mix especially given ICANN's harassment policies
Tatiana Tropina: (14:38) Agree with Farz
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:38) + 1 farzaneh
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (14:39) Agree with Farzi
Niels ten Oever: (14:39) +1 Farz
Dina Solveig Jalkanen: (14:39) +
Milton Mueller: (14:39) So as I understand it Farzaneh is saying that gender diversity is required, but other forms are subject to practicality?
Farzaneh Badii: (14:39) yes Milton
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:40) Agree with Farzaneh
Milton Mueller: (14:40) OK, would agree then
Farzaneh Badii: (14:40) gender should not be subject to practicality
Farzaneh Badii: (14:41) I am talkijg about gender diversity.that's it
Farzaneh Badii: (14:42) the opportunity has to be there! ombuds should become an office!not a one person hired by board
Dina Solveig Jalkanen: (14:42) Whoever is selected should be aware of gender issue being real and have basic understanding that it is not limited to male or female - all diversity should have respectful and understanding approach and possibility to address the issues if not.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:42) COMMENT: Two Ombuds are better anyway - in case one has a conflict
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:42) +1 jeff
Tatiana Tropina: (14:43) Anne that is a good point
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:43) Absolutly My view Jeff I don't go for quota's either though
Farzaneh Badii: (14:43) at least one woman yes
Milton Mueller: (14:43) two women is as non-diverse as two men. I don't get it, Jeff
Wale Bakare: (14:43) The language "should" not necessarily comprises of two
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:43) Okay if at least one woman
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:43) I think the way the wording is on the screen summons up a commitment to diversity that is right and proper, without causing any problematics
Farzaneh Badii: (14:44) I didnt say fifty fifty I just said gender diversity should not be subject to practicality should be there by default!
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:44) I have a question, what is /are those issues that IOO shall not deal with?
Jeff Neuman: (14:44) 2 women and 1 men
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:44) Our WG believes this langguage allows for the aspirations and intentions of building Diversity in the office of the Ombuds quite well Thoma
Wale Bakare: (14:44) It is an open two selection
Jeff Neuman: (14:44) man :) All I am saying is that we should not disctate a quota
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:44) Thomas
Farzaneh Badii: (14:44) yes . subject to practicality should not be there for gender
Wale Bakare: (14:44) Exactly, the language seems confusing
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:44) yes . subject to practicality should not be there for gender
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:45) "subject to practicality" is redundant anyway, because it says ideally right in front of it.
Jeff Neuman: (14:45) i agree
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:45) "subject to practicality" may apply to NFL football players, not professional Ombudspersons
Dina Solveig Jalkanen: (14:45) :)
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:46) +1 kavouss
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:46) that is a good way....because it opens a can of worms
Wale Bakare: (14:46) +1 Kavouss
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (14:46) the clock makes me feel like in a NBA game...
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:47) @jorge LOL!
Wale Bakare: (14:47) And i think that statement should completely reworded, IMHO
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:47) You have a uniform
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:47) Sebastien, pls kindly reply to my question ,tks
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:48) i like the proposal
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:48) simple enough change
Milton Mueller: (14:48) Jorge: 1 second left to make a shot!
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:49) deleting "(subject to practicality)" is the proposal
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:49) correct
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:49) I support this change
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (14:49) i support that
Wale Bakare: (14:49) Supported
Farzaneh Badii: (14:50) eh I don't like "ideally" I know what will happen. but I dont have an objection
Dina Solveig Jalkanen: (14:50) I would love to see more gender diversity but not tying up the options in the statement. Two people are better than one, which does not necessarily mean any of them can not be of not standard gender at any point in the future.
Dina Solveig Jalkanen: (14:50) So +1, yes
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:51) Sebasiten, I repaet again , what are the uissues or areas that IOO shall not intervene?
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:52) isn't it the same as today, Kavouss? I haven't read anything that suggests otherwise so far
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:52) The line is distorted
Farzaneh Badii: (14:52) so 5-6 members from within the community? or are they outsiders
Milton Mueller: (14:52) there is all kinds of language in the slides Jordan about "reconfiguring" the office
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:53) QUESTION: Can the Ombuds take diversity complaints? (Relates to the issue yesterday re "Office of Diversity". QUESTION
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:53) @Kavouss see this https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_ombudsman&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=moRikC7OmK473qXzvzzlBw2hKbr9mlZVQ8xd1qW4B1o&s=pRInE5iVYHxo39qQgn-9Lh1VKaoNH1eojQmRIFFV7nk&e= => The Ombudsman's function is to act as an informal dispute resolution office for the ICANN community, who may wish to lodge a complaint about ICANN staff, board or problems in supporting organizations. The purpose of the office is to ensure that the members of the ICANN community have been treated fairly. The Ombudsman is impartial and will attempt to resolve complaints about unfair treatment, using techniques like mediation, shuttle diplomacy and if needed, formal investigation. The Ombudsman is not an advocate for you, but will investigate without taking sides in a dispute. The process is informal, and flexible.
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:53) There is strong distortion when Jeff Spoke
Wale Bakare: (14:53) @Farzaneh, likely from within the ICANN
Milton Mueller: (14:53) and isn't ICANN Corp responsible for commissioning independent reviews of all other ACs and SOs? Why a special arrangement for Ombuddy?
jorge villa (aso): (14:53) hi folks, unfortunately i have to go to another meeting. have a very productive meeting
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:54) and from same page => The ICANN Ombudsman has jurisdiction over complaints which arise from things which happen in the communityThe Ombudsman cannot make, change or set aside a policy, administrative or Board decision, act, or omission, but may investigate these events, and to use ADR technique to resolve them and make recommendations as to changes.The Ombudsman cannot investigate issues between a domain name registrar and a domain name holder, nor can the office help with website content or spam or malware. However the Ombudsman will try to find the best place to help with these issues and refer the visitor.
Farzaneh Badii: (14:55) the page should be cited in the report
Milton Mueller: (14:55) agree
Jeff Neuman: (14:56) I just do not understand the need for people with "ICANN experience"
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:56) Easy enough to do it is referenced of course in the IE's full report I believe
Jeff Neuman: (14:56) Skilled Ombudspersons can do their job in any environment
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (14:56) COMMENT: I tend to agree with Jeff - if what he said is that confidential matters should no be discussed by the Advisory Panel with the ICANN Board.
Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (14:56) Wow – yet another Panel with a unclear role
Milton Mueller: (14:56) Agree Finn
Farzaneh Badii: (14:56) yeah
Jeff Neuman: (14:57) I agree that there are way too many panels
Jeff Neuman: (14:57) even if the role is clear
Stephen Deerhake: (14:58) Time to hire more Staff!
Jeff Neuman: (14:58) We need more volunteers in the policy process in dealing with the matters ICANN was commissioned to do. Now there are more volunteers for accountability functions that for doing what ICANN is here to do
Farzaneh Badii: (14:58) panels don't solve real problems. but we have panel and advisory fetish at ICANN
Wale Bakare: (14:59) Would rather give that to staff than volunteers
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:59) That is specifically stated as NOT the purpose Kaviuss see my coy of text above
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (14:59) Kavouss, nobody is proposing any changes from today
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:00) Kavouss sorry typo of your name
Jeff Neuman: (15:00) I see one of the key roles of the ombudsperson is to help with ensuring the Code of Conduct / Standards of Behavoir
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:00) if there is no problem today there would be no problem tomorrow
Jeff Neuman: (15:00) is adhered to
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:00) INdeed Jeff as do many of us
Greg Shatan: (15:00) "I don't think this means what you say it means"
Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: (15:01) A Panel could also potentially undermine the role of the Ombudsman
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:01) Today ,we have also serious problem with the authority og OM
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:01) Time Check - 59 minutes left in call
Milton Mueller: (15:03) Either I missed it, or there was never a very strong justification for what problem this Advisory Panel solves
David McAuley (RySG): (15:03) Bernie, maybe we need a game clock along with the shot clock
Milton Mueller: (15:04) :-)
Jeff Neuman: (15:04) Unless it is Advising the Board on matters on how to comport itself when there are complaints against the board for violating things like the expected standards of behavoir
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:04) @David working on it
Jeff Neuman: (15:05) OR adivising the Board on what it could do to make sure the community is made more aware of improvements that can be made to comport with the standards of behavoir
Milton Mueller: (15:05) maybe we need a cuckoo clock, too
Milton Mueller: (15:06) Jeff, is the Ombuds office currently not subject to regular review?
Brenda Brewer: (15:06) Tics are on upper menu bar far right
Greg Shatan: (15:06) @David, the "game clock" would be a good idea. After all, one can eat an elephant in small bites, if one is allowed enough bites.
Brenda Brewer: (15:06) under raised hand icon
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:06) Issue is scope of panel's role
Jeff Neuman: (15:06) But 11 red from a pretty diverse set of groups
Jeff Neuman: (15:06) GAC members, RySG members, IPC members
Jeff Neuman: (15:06) erc,
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:06) there were fifteen red crosses
David McAuley (RySG): (15:07) @Greg, LOL ;-)
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:07) there are five green hands
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:07) 5
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:07) six
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:07) But NOT to advise both the Ombuds and the Board at the same time on the same matter
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:07) 6 now
Milton Mueller: (15:08) She supports the idea of a Panel, though
Farzaneh Badii: (15:08) that was counted Milton
avri doria: (15:09) and a bunch that could accept it but are not strong propo nents
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (15:10) + 1 jeff
Wale Bakare: (15:10) Thanks, Jeff
Lori Schulman: (15:11) good point Jeff
Jeff Neuman: (15:11) thanks
Wale Bakare: (15:11) That is a good observation
Jeff Neuman: (15:14) The determination of "for cause" should be ratified by the empowered community
Jeff Neuman: (15:14) But I am not sure how that could be done practically
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (15:15) it has to be very very indepedent agreed
David McAuley (RySG): (15:15) I often agree w/Farzi but on this it seems to me that fixed term contract is one good step – perfect independence may not be achievable if the Ombuds is to be paid
Milton Mueller: (15:15) But it's not fixed term
Milton Mueller: (15:15) It's got a 1 year probationery and a 3 year extension
Milton Mueller: (15:16) Anyone seeking job security would make sure they keep the board happy
Farzaneh Badii: (15:16) it's not the lenght of contract that will fix the independence problem. livelihood should not be dependent on it
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:16) This is a point (from Farzi)nI just object to and have dine so cinsistently each tie she raised it
David McAuley (RySG): (15:16) i do see concern with 'probationary' period - who judges that
Farzaneh Badii: (15:16) I have to go now I hope my concern is addressed
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:16) Agree with David - what are the terms of the probation?
Milton Mueller: (15:16) if your case for independence rests entirely on the term, then make it 5 years flat and then it ends, no discretion
Farzaneh Badii: (15:17) yes cheryl I will repeat it I talk from my expertise with working on dispute resolution systems and I know ICANN too well to have a valid opinion
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:17) we dn't need the EC to do that. because the EC can do other things if the Board does something strange with the Ombuds
Farzaneh Badii: (15:17) now I have to go will raise the independence issue of ombuds until it is actually solved
Farzaneh Badii: (15:17) bye
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:18) indeed we did extensively discussed Seb
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:18) Jeff hand?
Jeff Neuman: (15:18) yes
Jeff Neuman: (15:19) new one
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:19) ok
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:19) What is her amendment exavctly?
Farzaneh Badii: (15:19) I am back. my meeting is not now apparently. have another 40 minutes to spend on ICANN
Milton Mueller: (15:20) Does the panel HIRE the Ombudsman? As well as rule on cause?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:21) Good Idea Jeff
Milton Mueller: (15:22) Can we wait I have a point to make
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:22) and Remember when Thomas is saying as "suggested by Sebastien" he should be saying the IOO WG
Milton Mueller: (15:22) We need to discuss it more
Jeff Neuman: (15:23) I agree with recommendation 9; I agree that the contract may not have enough protections, i do not agree on the anti fraternization rule
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:23) Green if it is supported *as is* on the screen
Jeff Neuman: (15:23) and then propose the panel solely for ratify that for cause
avri doria: (15:23) btww, is this voting or polling.
Farzaneh Badii: (15:23) this paragraph 9 does not add anything to ombuds independence we have to change the whole design of ombuds
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:24) @Cheryl - what is red? That we don't support without amendments?
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (15:24) we do a poll
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (15:24) @avri
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:24) And Jeff I AGREE with you (on this)
avri doria: (15:24) i guess if they are decsional they are votes. if not they are polls.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:24) Red as I interpreted was if you seek to make a change either as outside at arms length office or anything else
avri doria: (15:25) aren't they for informing the subgroup of the temperature in the room on various issues?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:25) COMMENT - agree - maybe Advisory Panel should both HIRE and then advise the Ombudsman and determine probationary period and "for cause" termination. COMMENT
avri doria: (15:25) so they wouldn't eliminate a recommendation but would let the subgroup know they had something to further consider. and maybe change.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:25) exactly Thomas => lets remember these were recommendations by a specialist contractor who does this for a living and compared against industry best practices.
Farzaneh Badii: (15:26) we need to work on independence more. this recommendation does not add anything to independence.
Jeff Neuman: (15:26) ONly reason I have an "X" is because I would like to see some improvements on the notion of "good cause"
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:27) and I trust we will watch the diversity of where the views cime from as well Thomas
Jeff Neuman: (15:27) I dont care about the term or only allowing the ombudsman to be terminated by cause
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:27) Remember people that we only have a couple of calls left to land everything, including this topic
avri doria: (15:27) and remeber the silent group. who are not on either side.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:27) Can you suggest some text Jeff
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:28) There appears to be an even split among those participating in the poll.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:28) Kavouss, that question doesn't help us work through these recommendations
Farzaneh Badii: (15:28) the recommendations of this group does not enhance the independence of ombuds office
Jeff Neuman: (15:28) can we take one element at a time
David McAuley (RySG): (15:28) good point @Avri, I considered abstaing on this close issue but on balance decided to vote
avri doria: (15:29) i think it does enahnce, but possibly not enough
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:29) and remeber how "successful" some of ICANNs experience has been when using fully Independent Outside Offices for things
David McAuley (RySG): (15:29) to poll, rather
Jeff Neuman: (15:29) I agreement 9 (a) and 9(b) IF we strengthen 9(b) a little
David McAuley (RySG): (15:29) fair outcome Thomas
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:29) I think the easy fix is bring back Advisory Panel but only in relation to consulting the Ombudsman, not the Board. Presumably the panel is independent.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:29) I do, Thomas
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (15:29) what are the poll numbers?
Farzaneh Badii: (15:29) I lost audio
Wale Bakare: (15:29) 8 For, 7 Against
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:29) time check - 30 minutes left in call
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (15:30) reshaped yes
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:30) currently six green ticks and six red crosses, it was 6/8 for/against before
Farzaneh Badii: (15:30) it's back ...
Jeff Neuman: (15:30) agree with reshaping
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (15:30) 8 red and 6 green is my count
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:30) @Robin - I think it was about 9 versus 9
Jeff Neuman: (15:30) I like #10
avri doria: (15:30) and how many of did not poll?
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:30) Please all, clear your ticks and crosses
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:30) can everyone clear their polls
David McAuley (RySG): (15:30) Rec. 10 looks good
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccTLDs): (15:30) Avri: a solid majority, there are around 35 participants on the call
avri doria: (15:31) let remeber those numbers too.
Jeff Neuman: (15:31) I think the questions in 11 are all valid ones
Jeff Neuman: (15:33) and good
David McAuley (RySG): (15:33) These seem well considered – are they in response to issues that have been raised?
Milton Mueller: (15:33) yes, I hvae the same response. These are all good questions
Milton Mueller: (15:34) but it is unclear how or whether they will be answered
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:34) @Milton - maybe that is another function of Advisory Panel if reinstated recommendation only for purposes of hiring and supervising Ombuds
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:34) Pls remind Sebastien to reply to my questions raised and repeated for the second time
Farzaneh Badii: (15:35) I want the independence question to be answered. does the group think recommeendations sufficiently enhance independence of ombudsoffice
Milton Mueller: (15:35) so here we go, an hour ago there is "no change at all" to Ombuds authority, but here we are talking about "duties and powers" that may be "enhanced"
Milton Mueller: (15:35) Anne: Yes, that would be a worthwhile recommendation
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:37) So Advisory Panel role + hir Ombudspersons, ensure diversity, determine termsof probation, determine any firing for cause, detremine answers to questions in Recommendation 11
Farzaneh Badii: (15:37) I like that solution Anne
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (15:37) @anne this has sense
Jeff Neuman: (15:38) yes, thanks
Jeff Neuman: (15:39) right...forgot about that :)
Jeff Neuman: (15:40) But I think this makes sense
Jeff Neuman: (15:40) Good work on all of this!
Tatiana Tropina: (15:40) I don't think it's enough time for HR
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:40) it was a win win nce the "personal" and personality sensabilities were "sorted" jeff
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:41) Good work all
Tatiana Tropina: (15:41) so we want to rush last minute proposed changes on HR in 20 minute? Very nice.
Jeff Neuman: (15:41) But Cheryl...what if the ALAC took the Ombudsman report and said...we dont care....we are not changing....what would happen next
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:41) Thanks to Ombuds team!
Tatiana Tropina: (15:41) better to get my hand up right now then.
David McAuley (RySG): (15:41) +1 @Thomas, thanks to Sebastien and Ombuds team
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (15:42) Tatiana, we will not rush this, but can do two parts of the discussion
Tatiana Tropina: (15:42) thanks Thomas
Tatiana Tropina: (15:42) Niels please mention that the last points in your proposed text were not discussed in the group, thank you.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:43) and that they were proposed few hours before the call
Jeff Neuman: (15:44) I think this group and the Jurisdiction group are by far the most difficult and challenging issues, so I admire the job you all have done so far
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:45) @Tatiana - Are you saying Niels sent new language for the document we had last discussed?
Farzaneh Badii: (15:45) I like Juri group better. that group knows how to have fun. Greg is joyful everytime he chairs the meeting
Tatiana Tropina: (15:46) Anne, I a talking about the suggestion sent by Niels to the group to which Matt objected
Jeff Neuman: (15:46) Greg certainly has a lot of patience
Tatiana Tropina: (15:46) and I did too
Jeff Neuman: (15:50) I am not sure I have enough information to give any advice
Jeff Neuman: (15:50) on this
David McAuley (RySG): (15:50) Agree with Tatiana that time is short on this call and maybe best to have this discussion in one go
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (15:50) Agree with Tatiana and Matt's concerns on the new text for HR.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:51) we have to inform the list about our concerns
Tatiana Tropina: (15:51) at list the CCWG list
Tatiana Tropina: (15:51) with the last minute proposals we just don't have enough time to take an informed decision
Niels ten Oever: (15:51) @Tatiana - There is no new text suggested here
Tatiana Tropina: (15:51) apart from taking it based on disent opinion
Tatiana Tropina: (15:52) Niels, you sent a text to the HR list and Jorge sent the suggestion to asking the CCWG to decide
Niels ten Oever: (15:52) Nopes - I asked what people thought
Niels ten Oever: (15:53) "Ahead of todays plenary call I wanted to gauge the opinions vis a vis Jorge's compromise proposal below."
Tatiana Tropina: (15:53) and to decide - be it text or not we have to inform the group not about when the opinion was submitted but what we discussed and which concerns we brough and why we didn't hcange the text - may be not in the same length. I for once don't believe the proposed text is any kind of common ground proposal
Tatiana Tropina: (15:53) and I do not think it's a compromise proposal - as far as I see I am not alone.
Niels ten Oever: (15:53) That is all I asked for.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:54) Awesome we have supportive voice but we need to give the voice to those who object
Tatiana Tropina: (15:54) just to explain teh consequences.
Niels ten Oever: (15:54) I did not make my opinion known whatsoever
Tatiana Tropina: (15:54) And what is presented as a compromise solution takes us away from the compromise text proposed before
Tatiana Tropina: (15:54) and agreed upon
Tatiana Tropina: (15:54) if I may say
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:55) Do if I understand it correctly, a proposal for compromise text was made directly to the CCWG without going to the subgroup?????
Tatiana Tropina: (15:55) so as I expected I wasn't alone in not supporting it.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:55) Anne am of the same understanding. It's anything but compromise or agreed or common ground text
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (15:55) @Anne: when I made text proposals in August they were not considered
Tatiana Tropina: (15:56) Greg - plus million
Tatiana Tropina: (15:56) we can't overrule the fact that we have to reflect there was no consensus in the group by saying otehrwise at the plenary
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:56) Inded Greg
Tatiana Tropina: (15:56) and without informing the wider group of *why* we couldn't agree
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (15:57) The UNGP are an international instrument endorsed by the United Nations. As other declarations mentioned in the FoI, it is not as such a legally binding document, but it was unanimously endorsed in 2011 by the United Nations Human Rights Council through a formal resolution. Therefore, locating it under instruments makes sense.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:57) so the group can take the informed decision and not just cheer up let's have Ruggie and more HR.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:57) I support every comment from Greg.
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (15:57) So do I.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:57) I also wish I could support
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (15:58) The Subgroup just proposes - it is up to the CCWG to decide
Tatiana Tropina: (15:58) But it is not something I can support
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (15:58) I think it would be quite bizarre procedurally to be proposing language to be discussed by the plenary that has not been reviewed by the subgroup. This would be a terrible precedent for Working Groups. No one would seek compromise in a Sub Team
Milton Mueller: (15:58) Awwww
Tatiana Tropina: (15:58) +1 Anne
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (15:58) Substantive last minute changes to the text are inappropriate.
Lori Schulman: (15:58) I think that we should take Greg's concerns very seriously
Tatiana Tropina: (15:58) Ungrounded changes
Lori Schulman: (15:59) and not agree to anything without further review and explanation
Tatiana Tropina: (15:59) Lori thank you - this is exactly the point I am trying to make
Lori Schulman: (16:00) There is a doubt about consensus
Lori Schulman: (16:00) and agree that perhaps handled by plenary
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (16:00) Yes, Lori
Farzaneh Badii: (16:00) Bye all
Wale Bakare: (16:00) Thanks all, bye!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (16:00) the Plenary always has considered and resolved issues when drafting teams or subgroups did not come to an agreement
Lori Schulman: (16:00) ciao
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:00) I thought it was a proposal for compromise language in the Considerations document or the FOI. In that case, it needs to be discussed in the subgroup.
Lori Schulman: (16:00) I am very crunchy
Lori Schulman: (16:01) crispy actually
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:01) I agree Niels no point in us reconvening on this but discuss now here
Greg Shatan: (16:01) The subgroup came to an agreement -- just not full consensus.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (16:01) salty and sweet also
Tatiana Tropina: (16:01) the way the things are presented are not the compromised proposal
Lori Schulman: (16:01) suspect that others are too
Tatiana Tropina: (16:01) this doesn't have to do anything with what we proposed
David McAuley (RySG): (16:01) Thanks all, good bye
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:01) Yes Jorge - but discussed in Subgroup first. I am very confused at this point about what language change is being debated.
Tatiana Tropina: (16:01) thanks all!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:01) Bye everyone more on 11th
Lori Schulman: (16:01) bye
Collin Kurre: (16:01) Thanks everyone!
Robin Gross [GNSO NCSG]: (16:02) bye
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): (16:02) bye and thanks all!
Michael Abejuela (ASO): (16:02) bye all
Thomas Rickert, Co-Chair: (16:02) Good work all! Bye!
Andreea Brambilla: (16:02) Thank you!
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (16:02) bye all
Julf Helsingius: (16:02) Thank you all!
Krishna Seeburn - Kris: (16:02) bye
