Sub-group Members: Andreea Brambilla, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Daniel Appelman, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Harold Arcos, Janet Shih Hajek, Javier Rua-Jovet, John Laprise, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Markus Kummer, Niels ten Oever, Paul McGrady, Robin Gross, Rudi Daniel, Tatiana Tropina (21)
Observers/Guests: Iren Borissova, Taylor Bentley
Staff: Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Karen Mulberry, Mary Wong, Nathalie Vergnolle, Tristana Webster (7)
Apologies: Jorge Cancio, Corrine Cath, Herb Waye
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
Agenda
1. Administrivia
- Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
- Discussion of FoI during plenary on Wednesday 14 – 13:00 UTC
2. Analysis and discussion on the progress of the drafting team working on the Human Rights Policy and Process Questions
a. The policies and frameworks, if any, that ICANN needs to develop or enhance in order to fulfill its commitment to respect Human Rights
b. Consistent with ICANN’s existing processes and protocols, consider how these new frameworks should be discussed and drafted to ensure broad multistakeholder involvement in the process
and:
Consider how the interpretation and implementation of this Bylaw will interact with existing and future ICANN policies and procedures.
c. Consider what effect, if any, this Bylaw will have on ICANN’s
consideration of advice given by the Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC)
3. AOB
Notes: (including relevant portions of the chat):
1. Administrivia
Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
Kavouss Arasteh: During the entire ICG,CWG,CCWG ,IOT,IRP ,,There has not been any chair so kind, balanced, patient, skillful and neutral as Niels. Congradulations Niels.
Audio only: no participants.
Roll call will be taken from the AC room
No SOI updates
Discussion of FoI during plenary on Wednesday 14 – 13:00 UTC
Niels unable to attend the plenary tomorrow.
Tatiana and Greg will be attending and presenting the FoI.
Encouraging subgroup participants to attend in order to support discussions in the plenary.
Status of Legal questions:
Waiting to hear back from ICANN Legal re: legal questions raised.
2. Analysis and discussion on the progress of the drafting team working on the Human Rights Policy and Process Questions
Draft document can be found here:
a. The policies and frameworks, if any, that ICANN needs to develop or enhance in order to fulfill its commitment to respect Human Rights
Niels read the section
Kavouss:"ICANN can prioritize" - could we replace 'can' by 'should'?
DM disagrees. This document is complex and needs a preamble.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Agree with David on the change in meaning that comes with change from "can" to "should".
Tatiana: let's rephrase it to say it is a suggestion from the group for ICANN to prioritize.
Kavouss: "is consistent"; we don't know that it is consistent. change done
Anne: the sentence still sounds a little akward, should be worked on off-line.
ACTION (Subgroup): continue to work on this sentence on the mailing list and in Google doc.
b. Consistent with ICANN’s existing processes and protocols, consider how these new frameworks should be discussed and drafted to ensure
broad multistakeholder involvement in the process
and:
Consider how the interpretation and implementation of this Bylaw will interact with existing and future ICANN policies and procedures.
Niels read the section.
Kavouss: I have difficulties with the word "substantive"
Niels: text in quotes is strictly for the GNSO
David McAuley (RySG): agree w/Niels and GNSO policies should be treated as they usually are, should not imply change that process in this document.
Paul McGrady: we should not limit this section to GNSO.
Tatiana Tropina: the question is about policies and processes, so we have to think about AC
David McAuley (RySG): I suggest that this document in no way imply a change to how GNSO policy is presently developed and approved in ICANN.
Niels: should we try to include all SO/ACs?
Paul: we want the FoI to be applicable to all SO/ACs
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): Actually all gTLD policy is developed at the GNSO - not just "substantive" policies. Agree other SOs and ACs have input to that
process and the GAC in particular has direct input to the Board.
Greg: agrees with Anne, should say 'any policy' rather than 'substantive'
ACTION (subgroup): add some substance to the document related to other SO/ACs
Tatiana: There is mention of GAC further down in the document, so seems like GAC is covered already.
Mary Wong: The Bylaws spell out the scope of the GNSO and ccNSO policy processes very clearly, including who can participate in a ccNSO PDP,
initiate one etc. The ASO's mechanisms are quite different from either the ccNSO or the GNSO as well.
Greg Shatan: "policies and frameworks". This needs to be given further thought.
Mary Wong: The ASO policy process is spelled out in the MOU between ICANN and the NRO. On frameworks, there is now the Framework of Principles
for Future CCWGs (recently adopted by the ccNSO and GNSO).
Kavouss: "multistakeholder" repetition - text needs to be simplified.
c. Consider what effect, if any, this Bylaw will have on ICANN’s consideration of advice given by the Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC)
Niels read the section.
Kavouss: 4th line "and interpreted" should be "and implemented". The phrase could be simpler.
Greg: we should continue to work on interpretation vs implementation. It's not the purpose of this group to mandate implementation.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): "The different SOs whould consider incorporating HRIAs in THEIR PDPs, not "its". After that sentence ,the references
to "will" should be "would" in the conditional since "will" .
Niels invites the group to make additional edits to the Google document.
3. AOB
Next meeting of the subgroup: Dec 22.
Action Items
- ACTION (Subgroup): continue to work on this sentence on the mailing list and in Google doc.
- ACTION (subgroup): add some substance to the document related to other SO/ACs
Documents Presented
Chat Transcript
Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #@16 on 13 December 2016 @ 19:00 UTC!
Kavouss Arasteh:Dear Brenda,
Kavouss Arasteh:Good day to you
Brenda Brewer:Hello Kavouss! I will call you in approximantly 15 minutes.
Kavouss Arasteh:Good and tks
Kavouss Arasteh:Dear All,
Tatiana Tropina:Hi all
Kavouss Arasteh:During the entire ICG,CWG,CCWG ,IOT,IRP ,,There has not been any chair so kind, balanced, patient, skillful and neutral as Niels.
Kavouss Arasteh:I will tell that tomorrow 's meeting of CCWG
Kavouss Arasteh:Congradulations Niels
David McAuley (RySG):Brenda, I am 4154
Tatiana Tropina:where is Niels actually? :-)
Markus Kummer:Hi veryone and congrats to you all for a job well done!
Brenda Brewer:Thank you, David!
Nathalie Vergnolle:Niels we can't hear you
Nathalie Vergnolle:you are very very faint
avri doria:very faintly
David McAuley (RySG):did someone speak?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I don't hear Niels. Is he speaking?
avri doria:yes Niels spoke starting the meeting.
Tatiana Tropina:Someone typed
avri doria:lots of typing.
Tatiana Tropina:I didn't hear Niels
Kavouss Arasteh:I HEAR NOTHING
David McAuley (RySG):yes, hear the typing now and then
Harold Arcos:idem Tatiana
Nathalie Vergnolle:Now we hear you
avri doria:yes
David McAuley (RySG):yes
Harold Arcos:Hi everyone,
Robin Gross:Good morning from San Francisco!
Harold Arcos:Good afternoon from sunny Caracas
Tatiana Tropina:so two of my pal pen-holders are not here :( and Matt is not on the call either.
Brenda Brewer:If your phone number ends with 3025, please identify for attendance purposes. Thank you!
Kavouss Arasteh:Niels, your co chair will also be absent?
Tatiana Tropina:Niels can you lead on this?
Tatiana Tropina:since Greg is not here
Kavouss Arasteh:May we do it one by one pls?
Tatiana Tropina:I can jump when there are questions
Leon Sanchez:hello everyone
Tatiana Tropina:I am also still recovering.
Leon Sanchez:my apologies for lateness
Tatiana Tropina:I am ok with this change.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Kavouss is rather muffled - loud enough certainly but hard to understand.
Leon Sanchez:indeed Anne
Tatiana Tropina:That's also ok, we can replace
Tatiana Tropina:I changed already
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I am not clear on the change from "can" to "should". Please clarify. Could not understand Kavouss
Tatiana Tropina:I agree with Kavouss
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):teamwork editing :--)
Tatiana Tropina:we can put the first "should" under consideration, we can discuss how to word this
Paul McGrady:+1, a preamble would help make it clear that this is NOT the framework.
Tatiana Tropina:Then we need a preamble, yes.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree with David on the change in meaning that comes with change from "can" to "should".
Tatiana Tropina:I am actually not ok with the world "prioritise" when can is changed to "should"
Tatiana Tropina:though I don't like "can" either
Tatiana Tropina:No.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):How about "may" ? Or "It is recommended that ICANN prioritize.?
Tatiana Tropina:I actually agree that "can" requires explanation.
Leon Sanchez:I will have to leave the call
Tatiana Tropina:but if we rephrase to suggestion and get rid of can this might work.
Leon Sanchez:my apologies but something unexpected has happened
Tatiana Tropina:Leon hope everything is well, take care
Niels ten Oever:Take care Leon
Leon Sanchez:everything ok, thanks everyone
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Technically Kavouss is right. "Can" is slang as used here. "May" will work or better would be "it is recommended that"
Tatiana Tropina:he haven't dropped it yet we have a suggestion to drop it :)
Tatiana Tropina:Anne, yes, we can find a better way.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"That ICANN prioritize" is correct because "prioritize" with no "s" is the subjunctive.
Niels ten Oever:The document is indeed very new
Niels ten Oever:and we have time
Niels ten Oever:all suggestions are very welcome
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):that textbis fine from my POV, and yes it is N early readingthis
avri doria:confused: we are eliminating the word çan' becasue it indicates ability to do something and not permission to do so?
Tatiana Tropina:David, will you be ok with rephrasing it with "suggestion from the group" way?
avri doria:i meant 'can' ...
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Tatiana - I think David is saying he needs more time on this - as to the specific wording to replace "can".
Niels ten Oever:The Subgroup on Human Rights of the CCWG suggests that while operationalizing the human rights bylaw, ICANN prioritizes areas of focus, such as its operations, internal procedures, and/or new policies consistent with its Mission. ICANN’s commitment to respect human rights and to take human rights into consideration in its operations and policies in the foregoing manner should be is consistent with the human rights provision of the bylaws. This could involve the use of a human rights impact assessment of how ICANN’s operations could impact human rights.
Kavouss Arasteh:My second comment????
Kavouss Arasteh:Tks
Tatiana Tropina:Ah alright. I think the drafting team will benefit tremendously from David;s suggestion. Niels I suggest we include David in the drafting team emails exchange.
Niels ten Oever:ICANN’s commitment to respect human rights and to take human rights into consideration in its operations and policies in the foregoing manner should be consistent with the human rights provision of the bylaws. This could involve the use of a human rights impact assessment of how ICANN’s operations could impact human rights.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@ Niels- it's still "prioritize" without an "s". It's the subjunctive.
avri doria:i.e. can is discriptive, not normative. as i said confused.
Tatiana Tropina:it's British spelling.
Tatiana Tropina:ah no, no
Tatiana Tropina:got it wrong
avri doria:'may prioritze' ??
Tatiana Tropina:Niels, shall inclusion David in the drafting team's email exchange be in actiton items? :-)
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"May prioritize" is good.
Tatiana Tropina:I am ok with "may prioritise"
David McAuley (RySG):agree w/Niels that wordsmithing on call might be unwise at this time
Tatiana Tropina:Yes, we won't move on like that. Let's stroke it and think of it later.
Tatiana Tropina:*strike*
David McAuley (RySG):some suggestions
David McAuley (RySG):I am sure others will as well
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yup we need to come back to this
avri doria:looks like we have another mtg sheculded on the 20th
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I am not certain about references to "substantive" or "not substantive". The normal distinction is between "Consensus Policy" (which triggers a Board 2/3 majority to reject and other policy which is not Consensus policy. Consensus policy is what dictates what is in the Registry and Registrar contracts. Can the drafting team comment on this?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):the other So sections need expansion obviously yes
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Another distinction that is made is "policy" or "implementation". This can get very confusing in trying to resolve issues that arise during implementation of policy.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):SO
David McAuley (RySG):agree w/Niels and GNSO policies should be treated as they usually are, should not imply change that process in this document.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Not sure there is any working definition at all for substantive versus non-substantive policy.
Tatiana Tropina:This comment shall be definitely taken into account.
Paul McGrady 2:I meant 1/7th. Thanks!
Tatiana Tropina:From Kavouss and Paul. And Anne. There is work to be done. Thanks for the comments.
Kavouss Arasteh:DELETE "Substantive"and add afterGNSO, add, inconsultation with or in collaboration with other SIO/ac
Mary Wong:@Anne, note that the reference to "substantive policies relating to gTLDs" is in the Bylaws (Article 11 on the GNSO).
Tatiana Tropina:we have to think about ACs
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):indeed
Tatiana Tropina:but the question is about policies and processes
Tatiana Tropina:so we have to think of ACs
Kavouss Arasteh:We are interpreting the Balaws and not reprating it
David McAuley (RySG):I suggest that this document in no way imply a change to how GNSO policy is presently developed and approved in ICANN.
Tatiana Tropina:Thanks a lot, Paul.
Paul McGrady 2:+1 David.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yes David it provides an 'articulation' though
Tatiana Tropina:Greg on the call, yay.
Kavouss Arasteh:Why yoy
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Actually all gTLD policy is developed at the GNSO - not just "substantive" policies. Agree other SOs and ACs have input to that process and the GAC in parituclar has direct input to the Board.
Tatiana Tropina:Because he lifted the doc heavily and can answer some questions.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)::-)
Kavouss Arasteh:Agree with consensus policy
David McAuley (RySG):Agree w/Paul. This doc should not imply change to way GAC, e.g, develops advice nor how GNSO, e.g., develops policy.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I would actually likely just delete "substantive".
Harold Arcos:+1 Anne
Paul McGrady 2:@Greg, glad the doctor said happy things!
Paul McGrady 2:+! Greg - OK to just delete "substantive"
Harold Arcos:"substantive" seems subjetive for me
Niels ten Oever 2:substantive removed :)
Mary Wong:@Greg, that is correct - the three SOs do not operate the same way on policy development.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):good
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Niels - Can you please repeat Kavouss? very muffled.
Paul McGrady 2:I had trouble hearing K. Can you summarize?
Mary Wong:The Bylaws spell out the scope of the GNSO and ccNSO policy processes very clearly, including who can participate in a ccNSO PDP, initiate one etc. The ASO's mechanisms are quite different from either the ccNSO or the GNSO as well.
David McAuley (RySG):Good point Greg
Tatiana Tropina:Yes, Greg
Greg Shatan:"policies and frameworks"
Mary Wong:The ASO policy process is spelled out in the MOU between ICANN and the NRO.
Mary Wong:On frameworks, there is now the Framework of Principles for Future CCWGs (recently adopted by the ccNSO and GNSO).
Harold Arcos:apologies, I have to drop off meeting
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):my next call is at top of hour I need to leave audio before that starts
Greg Shatan:We're still peeling the onion, Niels....
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"The different SOs whould consider incorporating HRIAs in THEIR PDPs, not "its". After that sentence ,the references to "will" should be "would" in the conditional since "will" .
Niels ten Oever 2:Thanks Anne, changed in the Google Doc !
Niels ten Oever 2:changed into would
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):bye
Niels ten Oever 2:Bye Cheryl!
Greg Shatan:The sun will set on this call now.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thanks all.
Kavouss Arasteh:and will rise at the next meeting
Paul McGrady 2:Thanks!!
David McAuley (RySG):Thanks Niels and all, good bye
Greg Shatan:Lou Gehrig retiring??
Tatiana Tropina:thanks all! Bye
Rudi Daniel:see u on 20 th this all
Andreea Brambilla:Thank you!
Javier Rua-Jovet:Bye
Markus Kummer:bye
