Zoom chat: 2022-04-26 Monthly RoundTable 3 (by EURALO)

19:38:13 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Welcome to Monthly RoundTable 3 (by EURALO) on the topic:”Split Internet" taking place on Tuesday, 26 April 2022 at 17:00 UTC.
19:38:26 From Yeşim Saglam - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Agenda: https://community.icann.org/x/hoOpCw
19:55:20 From Glenn McKnight to Everyone:
    Greetings all
19:59:46 From Laxmi Prasad Yadav to Everyone:
    hello everyone
19:59:47 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Wishing everyone a very warm welcome!
20:00:41 From Oksana Prykhodko to Everyone:
    Hello everyone
20:03:56 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
    Greetings everyone from the Office of the Ombuds. Bonjour tout le monde.
20:07:21 From Joshua Ayayi to Everyone:
    Hello Everyone, My name is Joshua Tetteh Ayayi from Ghana.
20:10:27 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    Welcome Joshua, good to have somebody from Africa.
20:11:51 From Glenn McKnight to Everyone:
    Will share  Prof Milton Mueller's presentation at NASIG San Juan on his talk on Splinternet
20:14:11 From Joshua Ayayi to Everyone:
    thnx Wolfgang
20:16:35 From Glenn McKnight to Everyone:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSJSbvIrlnw
20:18:09 From judith Hellerstein to Everyone:
    Can Pari speak louder
20:19:46 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Wishing all those who have joined a very warm welcome to the Roundtable (by EURALO) on the Split Internet
20:21:48 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
    Great to have you here @Jamal! Hi all, apologies for arriving late.
20:22:38 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    Critical Internet ressources (domain names, IP adresses, protocols, codes) can be seen as something like "commun heritage of mankind". It is the "air" of the Internet. In the real world there is no "Chinese" or "American" air, there is only "fresh" or "polluted" air. It makes no sense to pollute the Internet air to punish somebody who has broken international law which would undermine the functioning of the global Internet for everybody.
20:23:33 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Super important point, Jamal - thank you!
20:25:06 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    (Re. blocking Facebook vs deregistering IP addresses)
20:27:05 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    Happy to be here, Joanna! 
20:28:11 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    I’m not sure how much of a “monoculture” it ever was (knowing so many who worked in such a wide variety of countries in early, or at least earlier, days of Internet)… but it certainly was just a far *smaller* group online...
20:29:26 From avri doria to Everyone:
    And working together in good faith was a lot easier back then.
20:29:44 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    @Chris, well it was certainly monocultural while it was still a tool for US universities and laboratories to communicate with each other.
20:29:49 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    Dare we raise Baran’s name here, Kieron? ;-)
20:30:10 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    I perhaps wasn’t thinking back quite that far, @Bill 
20:30:42 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    The perils of having been around so long....☺️
20:30:56 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    @Chris, if you haven’t read Katie Hafner’s “Where wizards stay up late”, I would recommend it!
20:33:32 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    Internet applications are "tools". They can be used and misused. The telephone can be used and misused. It enables calls among criminals. You have to go for the criminals. But this doesn´t mean that you have to re-organize the telecommunication infrastructure.
20:34:44 From David Frautschy to Everyone:
    You are right @Wolfgang, you cannot blame the Internet for societal challenges, like money laundering, bulling or the spread of lies.
20:37:18 From Gideon Boampong to Everyone:
    Hi to you all. My name is Gideon Boampong from Ghana. Ghanasig Fellow 2022
20:38:30 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Definitely trust Chris!
20:38:57 From Joshua Ayayi to Everyone:
    welcome Gideon
20:39:08 From Joshua Ayayi to Everyone:
    Hi my name is Sandra Darkwa from Ghana. GhanaSIG fellow 2022
20:39:09 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    +1 Chris :-)
20:39:25 From David Frautschy to Everyone:
    I would like to ask Chris is the recent US, G7, EU factsheet on Sanctions is a step on the right direction and what else is needed. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/04/06/fact-sheet-united-states-g7-and-eu-impose-severe-and-immediate-costs-on-russia/
20:40:11 From Glenn McKnight to Everyone:
    Not a lot of proof that sanctions work
20:40:44 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    David, I can certainly speak to that - but in short, yes. But also, to add, it’s also significant that the US have followed it up with the more practical move of granting a General Licence on their OFAC sanctions for Internet services: https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/126/russia_gl25.pdf
20:41:02 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    That’s not been replicated by the EU
20:41:07 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    (To my knowledge)
20:42:49 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    193+ Wolfgang, depending on federal jurisdictions ;)
20:43:59 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
    The big picture of EU sanction https://www.sanctionsmap.eu/#/main
20:45:11 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Welcome to our Ghanasig Fellows!
20:46:20 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
    Question for Jamal and Chris: how does the EU policy on digital/technological autonomy fit into this discussion? Does it add or reduce the threat of Internet splintering?
20:47:17 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    @Joanna can we call it a “policy”? ;-) but happy to comment
20:47:37 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
20:48:26 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    Me too, happy to comment, but would also love to hear your thoughts as well, Joanna 
20:49:42 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    It’s. Good point, Kieron - in many ways, and for various reasons, Russia is especially primed for something like the sanctions situation to spiral into a more definitive “split” scenario
20:51:10 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    (e.g. the recent Russia legislation established a Russian database that parallels the RIPE database, containing IP address registration information for Russian operators… at this point it is synced to RIPE registry information, but under stress, it can also help facilitate a divergence)
20:51:33 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Alexander Isavnin wrote a very good summary of Russian Sovereign Internet Law measures on RIPE Labs recently
20:51:48 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    https://labs.ripe.net/author/alexander-isavnin/the-russian-sovereign-internet-and-number-resources/
20:52:00 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
    If we want to stick to the sanctions debate, please kindly share your thoughts @all on why we're considering these only now and why only with regard to Russia? Is this the first step towards applying the same regime vis a vis eg. Syria? Or is this a one time only sanctions regime we're discussing? Thank you.
20:52:39 From Kieron O'Hara to Everyone:
    Thanks Chris, really interesting - funny how often preparations for the worst case precipitate the worst case!
20:52:58 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    #irony
20:52:59 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone: 
20:53:41 From Joanna Kulesza to Everyone:
    Now some say there is no such thing as a coincidence.
20:54:15 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Also a very good piece by Konstantinos Komaitis on the breakdown of globalisation and Internet impacts: https://techpolicy.press/the-battle-to-preserve-a-global-internet/
20:54:36 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    ICANN's government relations dept published to reports on Russian Internet related laws.  Both from 2021, background to the current situation https://www.icann.org/en/government-engagement/publications
20:56:15 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    …and can be mistaken by some policymakers in the EU as meaning that as well, perhaps…
20:56:21 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    ;-)
20:57:23 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    We will opening up to Questions & Answers shortly! Please either raise your hand or put the question in the chat
20:57:26 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    Jamal, you are absolutely correct about the misinterpretation, and it's not helped when the policy imperative for some EC actions are very unclear.
20:57:49 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    Democracies have Hawks and Doves, Autocracies have Stalinists and Reformers. It is a complex matrix.
21:00:58 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Yes, it hasn’t been much of a “debate”! ;)
21:02:17 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Please do not speak too fast for our interpreters
21:02:20 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    Can an internet exist in a multipolar world?
21:02:25 From Yrjo Lansipuro to Everyone:
    Kieron,  very good point
21:05:42 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    I prefer "digital self-determination" over "digital souvereignty".
21:07:13 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    In the UN Charter, the jus cogens principle of "sovereignty" refers to the "state", the jus cogens principle of "self-determination" refers to the "People".
21:08:02 From avri doria to Everyone:
    I think that splintering is as natural for an internet as is the bringing together of diverse networks in an internet. What we need to figure out, as far as I can see, is how to strengthen the self healing nature and the ability to route around blockages, in such a way as to bring the splinters back together. A sustainable Internet will constantly oscillate between bringing together and splintering.
21:08:20 From joan francesc gras to Everyone:
    I agree with you Wolfgang. Is more correct concept and more realistic too.
21:08:51 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    If you have any questions, please either raise your hand or put the question in the chat
21:09:12 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
    What are the unspoken assumptions about the future behind the speakers' views? that some sort of "normalcy" and "peace" will arise again? what if the war is protrcted and there is a split in geopolitics deeper than today? Would a single Internet have survived WW2?
21:09:47 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    @Alejandro relentless optimism on my part, clearly
21:10:46 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
    Kieron is looking at this longer term it seems.
21:11:24 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    @Alejandro but more seriously, the ITU survived WW2 (albeit with some challenges, but I’m pretty vague on the details there - would be very interested to hear from people with more knowledge of that)
21:11:36 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
    @Chris I hope your optimism pans out, but we must ask the questions none the less.
21:11:55 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
    @Pari that was perfect, thanks!
21:12:06 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    (And I recognise the risk in referencing the ITU as a model for emulation)
21:12:42 From Alejandro Pisanty to Everyone:
    thanks @David Frautschy
21:14:32 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    It is far easier to prevent the Internet from coming into a country (cg. North Korea) than it is to take it away once a population has had a chance to experience it.
21:14:38 From David Frautschy to Everyone:
    Thousands of Russian citizens downloading VPNs to continue being informed
21:16:52 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    On a lighter note.  Question for Kieron and Jamal, do you think EU policy would be different if the UK had remained in the Union?  A moderating influence, a deliberate positioning in the mid-atlantic rather than the accidental paddling around (govt on a pedalo?) we see now ?
21:16:58 From David Frautschy to Everyone:
    Here is the info about these VPN downloads https://blog.cloudflare.com/what-cloudflare-is-doing-to-keep-the-open-internet-flowing-into-russia-and-keep-attacks-from-getting-out/
21:18:02 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    1+ @ Sebastian: It is not only "Peace". It should be also "understanding among people". Hate doesn´t solve any problems.
21:18:51 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    A kind reminder to state your names as the interpreters are otherwise not able to identify you
21:18:56 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    on the language channels
21:18:58 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    @Wolfgang, unfortunately, hate seems to solve the challenge, for some politicians, of staying in power.
21:23:12 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    My apologies for the bracketed part of that question.
21:28:17 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    @Adam, lots to say about EU sans the UK, but in short I’m not sure that we would be talking about digital ‘sovereignty’ would be the term we would use 
21:28:18 From avri doria to Everyone:
    Should some of the conversation be focused on how to heal the splinters, whether technically, politically , or techno-politically, rather than mourning the splintering.
21:30:07 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    @Avri, absolutely! Patches and kluges abound! We’re fixing this plan mid-flight…
21:30:09 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    @Avri, this is really crucial. I think that starting on a basis for discussion that rethinks the way we view sovereignty (horizontal, based on cooperation, etc.), we might start to counter such frames.
21:30:18 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    *plane
21:30:55 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    @Avri, a technical solution would be vastly easier )and quicker) to implement than a political one
21:31:18 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Thank you Pari for your excellent moderation!
21:31:26 From avri doria to Everyone:
    Bill, I think we need many types of solution. All we can think of.
21:31:28 From Jamal Shahin to Everyone:
    Thank you all, especially Pari!
21:31:41 From Herb Waye Ombuds to Everyone:
    Very interesting and informative session. Professional and respectful. Take care and be kind. Au revoir à la prochaine.
21:31:43 From Bill Jouris to Everyone:
    Avri, absolutely
21:31:44 From Lito Ibarra to Everyone:
    Thank you all. Very good discussion about a crucial topic
21:31:55 From Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org to Everyone:
    Thank you all very much for joining todays very interesting session!
21:31:58 From Sarah Kiden to Everyone:
    Very interesting discussion
21:32:09 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    byby see you The Hague
21:32:23 From ADAM PEAKE - ICANN org to Everyone:
    thank you Pari, thank you everyone.
21:32:39 From Chris Buckridge to Everyone:
    Thanks all!
21:32:40 From wolfgang kleinwaechter to Everyone:
    1+ to Oksana
21:32:42 From joan francesc gras to Everyone:
    Thank you all. Very interesting session.
21:32:45 From avri doria to Everyone:
    bye thanks, good session.
21:32:47 From Pari Esfandiari to Everyone:
    Thank you all