Attendees:
Sub-group Members: Avri Doria, David McAuley, Jean-Jacques Sahel, Leon Sanchez, Marilia Maciel, Matthew Shears, Niels ten Oever, Tatiana Tropina
Staff: Alice Jansen, Brenda Brewer
Apologies: Eberhard Lisse
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Transcript
Recording
- The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p6wjeim1vf6/
- The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-wp4-28aug15-en.mp3
Notes
David McAuley on phone.
Review of Draft High Level Objective
WP4 discussed proposal received on list to modify text to not restrict it to United Nations
Feedback:
- Suggest defining high level commitment along the lines of what we have discussed for WS1 and fleshing it out as part of Work Stream 2.
- We need to refine wording put together.
- Do not understand that we give support without reservation to United Nations principles. It would be better to confirm support for International Human Rights and leave it to WS2 to define what we are going to use to operationalize that (UN compact, etc). Open it up to wider set of documents
- Suggested language: HEREBY AFFIRMS its support without reservation for internationally recognized fundamental human rights, and intends to develop .....
--> Concerned about support without reservation. What could that imply? It could be a point of discussion for the group
- Stick to paragraph 151
- Do not think putting commitment to human rights will be risk of law suit for ICANN
- Need to explore options and caveats around meaning of without reservations
- Without reservation is superfluous
ACTION ITEM: Check wording and implications of without reservation
- Without reservation does not encourage legal liability. We are making it complicated. Let's favor simple statements.
ACTION ITEM: Leon to refine high level drafting to reflect today's discussion and to begin working on explanatory note to document how WP4 reached this wording.
- Commitment to human rights won't cause any court cases if all this would be carefully further formulated in policies.
--> We have common understanding that it would not be opening door to lawsuits
ACTION ITEM: Share progress report with Subgroup to incorporate any additional feedback there may be
ACTION ITEM: Leon to set up google doc
- What is the procedure to reach consensus/what are the next steps?
--> Within 1 or 2 calls, we could have product for group to review/discuss
- is there any use in possibly looking at slightly rewording article 4 of the articles of incorporation to make a more explicit refernce to HR?
--> That is a possibility.
- Changing the art of incorporation entails another process (and was not included in draft report of CCWG)
Action Items
ACTION ITEM: Check wording and implications of without reservation
- Without reservation does not encourage legal liability. We are making it complicated. Let's favor simple statements.
ACTION ITEM: Leon to refine high level drafting to reflect today's discussion and to begin working on explanatory note to document how WP4 reached this wording.
- Commitment to human rights won't cause any court cases if all this would be carefully further formulated in policies.
ACTION ITEM: Share progress report with Subgroup to incorporate any additional feedback there may be
ACTION ITEM: Leon to set up google doc
Documents Presented
Chat Transcript
Brenda Brewer: (8/28/2015 08:49) Welcome to WP4 Meeting #1 on 28 August! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:00) Hi all, for some reason I cannot connect my device audio..
Marilia Maciel: (09:00) Hello all. Brenda, I don't see an audio option to use the computer and the dial number for Brazil is not working for me.
Marilia Maciel: (09:00) Same Niels
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:00) Same same :)
Brenda Brewer: (09:01) Audio is on now!
Brenda Brewer: (09:01) You may test your sound
Marilia Maciel: (09:01) Thanks, working now
matthew shears: (09:02) noisy
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:02) Working!
matthew shears: (09:10) I also think that the Guiding Principles requre more discussion and understanding of the implications for ICANN and should be a part of WS2
matthew shears: (09:11) + 1 Niels
Tatiana Tropina: (09:11) I also agree that the reference to the guiding principle somehow makes it too specific
Marilia Maciel: (09:11) I agree with Niels. Specific documents should be identified by Workstream 2 if appropriate.
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:12) HEREBY AFFIRMS its support without reservation for internationally recognized fundamental human rights, and intends to develop .....
Tatiana Tropina: (09:12) there should be a broad formulation
Tatiana Tropina: (09:13) like Niels just wrote + 1 from me
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:14) Not sure what is the difference between 'support' and 'support without reservation', lawyers?
Tatiana Tropina: (09:14) as a Laywer to be honest I do not understand the idea of "no reservation" clause - what's behind it?
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:17) support is support imho, don't necessarily need 'without reservation'
Tatiana Tropina: (09:17) Niels +1
Tatiana Tropina: (09:18) (from legal point of view)
matthew shears: (09:18) agree "no reservation" is superfluous - one can't cherry pick HR - there aree some qualifiers in the ICCPR but not reservations
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:18) +1
Tatiana Tropina: (09:18) it rather looks to me like "no reservation" reather looks like embellishment
Tatiana Tropina: (09:18) rather. Sorry for typos
Tatiana Tropina: (09:19) I can also check this. Just in case (about wording and implications)
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:19) Is there any more elaboration on Pauls argument?
Tatiana Tropina: (09:19) I won't be able to write to the mail9ing list, though (I am an observer)
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:20) @Tatiana, I'd be happy to bring it in
Tatiana Tropina: (09:20) Pauls argument is an email about court cases? Niels, O/
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:20) @Tatiana, yes
Tatiana Tropina: (09:20) I will do the checks then and send my opinion to one of you for mailing list.
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:20) Thanks!
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:22) HRs are the high level princniples for the Rugge Principles. So HRs are the highest level we should subscribe to imho.
Tatiana Tropina: (09:22) Briefly, in general - I do believe that (concerning Paul email) the general commitment to human rights won't cause any court cases if all this would be carefully further formulated in policies.
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:23) +1
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:25) Thanks Leon, great!
matthew shears: (09:25) could we take a more iterative approach and perhaps use a google doc?
Tatiana Tropina: (09:25) Mattew +1 good idea esp for those who are observers ...
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:26) nice, we can then have more threaded comments
matthew shears: (09:26) Thanks Leon
Avri Doria: (09:26) But i reiterate my support is that I will ultimately support most any wording that gets gernal agreement on a value of repsecting humn rights in the bylaws or (articles.)
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:27) Marilia has her hand up
Marilia Maciel: (09:27) Leon, hand up for just a quick question
matthew shears: (09:28) agree - is there any use in possibly looking at slightly rewording article 4 of the articles of incorpoation to make a more explicit refernce to HR?
matthew shears: (09:28) just a thought
Tatiana Tropina: (09:29) I fear that it would be much harder than changing bylaws
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:29) Changing the art of incorporation entails another process I think (and was not included in draft report of CCWG)
Avri Doria: (09:31) we might have the same wording issues.
Marilia Maciel: (09:31) Sorry, I am losing connectivity and dropping. Will look at your answer in the transcripts, Leon. Thanks!
Tatiana Tropina: (09:32) thanks everyone! :)
Niels ten Oever - Article19: (09:32) Thanks all!
Avri Doria: (09:32) thanks
matthew shears: (09:32) thanks all
Marilia Maciel: (09:32) Thank you!
Marilia Maciel: (09:32) Bye!
