Attendees: 

Sub-group Members:   Amrita Vasudevan, Anne-Rachel Inne, Avri Doria, Beth Bacon, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christopher Wilkinson, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Irene Borissova, Jeff Neuman, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Mary Uduma, Mike Rodenbaugh, Milton Mueller, Nigel Hickson, Paul McGrady, Philip Corwin, Rafael Perez Galindo, Steve DelBianco,  Vinay Kesari, Wale Bakare.  (25)

Observers: Taylor RW Bentley

Staff:  Berry Cobb, Bernard Turcotte, Yvette Guigneaux

Apologies:  

 ** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **


Transcript

Recording

Agenda

1. Welcome
2. Review of Progress to Date
a. Work on “confirming and assessing the Gap Analysis” was hampered by lack of clarity
in identifying this “Gap Analysis,” in particular the scope of such “Gap Analysis.” As a
consequence, the group’s deliberations were largely about scope and not about
confirmation and assessment. Work on a substantive issue that is clearly “in scope”
could benefit the group’s efforts to identify, confirm and assess the Gap Analysis.
Therefore, we have put this task to the side and will revisit it after work on substantive
issue that is clearly “in scope.”
b. Changing ICANN's headquarters or incorporation jurisdiction will not be further
investigated at this time; however, if an issue is identified and the Subgroup can’t find a
less drastic solution, we will revisit and examine this concept in the context of the
identified issue.
c. We have done substantial work on a document defining the Multiple Layers of
Jurisdiction, both generically and in the ICANN context. This document also contains
some initial discussions of the influence/effect of ICANN’s existing jurisdictions. This
document is clearly a “work in progress” and does not yet reflect consensus.
d. We have identified a substantive issue that is clearly “in scope”: The influence of
ICANN’s existing jurisdictions relating to resolution of disputes (i.e., “Choice of Law”
and “Venue”) on the actual operation of policies and accountability mechanisms.
i. Choice of Law refers to the governing law for a dispute, whether chosen by the
parties or determined by “conflict of laws” rules.
ii. Venue refers to the physical location (if any) of the forum for a dispute, as well
as the type of forum and the provider of that forum.
e. We have begun work on a document exploring the topic in (d) (“the influence of
ICANN’s existing jurisdictions relating to resolution of disputes (i.e., “Choice of Law” and
“Venue”) on the actual operation of policies and accountability mechanisms”) and have
made some progress. Further progress is critical, as this is a core “deliverable” by this
group. This document is also clearly a “work in progress” and does not yet reflect
consensus.
3. Preparing for ICANN 57
a. CCWG F2F currently allots 30 minutes to an update and discussion of Jurisdiction
matters. We need to determine how best to use this time.
4. Reporting on our Progress
a. Status Report
b. Status Slide
5. AOB
6. Adjourn and see many of you in Hyderabad!


Notes

(including relevant parts of chat):

23 participants at start of call

1. Welcome

Greg Shatan: Acknowledge KA statement. Advise everyone that we will consider all the tough questions within our scope and that we will reach consensus on these.

Statement from Kavouss Arasteh for the record: While the works of all subgroup are important and valuable and their efforts are fully recognized and highly appreciate, I as a Member of CCWG associate a very high degree of importance to a mutually accepted output of Jurisdiction sub group. I hope our expectations would be realized and the group produce an output which properly and legally address the case under consideration. It would be totally inacceptable, disappointing and frustrating to either end up with status quo or a Watered town product. The overwhelming majority community, in particular those which are still skeptical to the concept of multistakeholder approach, are carefully monitoring the output of this group to join others getting assurance that this fundamental, crucial and important issue is concluded with satisfactory results. We count on all of you and, in particular, count on the able chairman to explore all his expertise, skills, competence, knowledge and fairness in this regard

2. Review of Progress to Date

Greg Shatan: will post this to a Google doc and give the group 24 hours to review. Any comments on A? (none). PDS email comment for B - Generally speaking, the progress report seems reasonable to me. I would only suggest the removal of the expression "and the Subgroup can’t find a less drastic solution" in point 2.b, as the idea of what "drastic" means seems quite abstract to me and can be subject to misinterpretations. Any comments on this? In meeting 7 of this sub-group it was phrased as this and accepted at that time.

Avri Doria: So many other words can be used vs drastic why not change it.

Milton Mueller: how about just replacing "less drastic" with "another"?

Christopher Wilkinson: Agree with 2A, never understood what a gap analysis would be and support changing the word Drastic.

Kavous Arasteh: Alternate solution - part starting with "IF the subgroup deems it is necessary to revisit this it will be done accordingly"

Greg Shatan: KA please check if notes ok.

David McAuley: I stand by the comments I made on the list regarding the gap analysis several weeks ago.

simple)

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Happy to switch out "drastic"

Kavouss Arasteh: Grec pls assure me of the actions required

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Thx Greg that seems reasonable of course comments to list will also be considered

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Dear Greg: the report seems quite balanced. But allow us some time to consider it, ok?

Greg Shatan: Any other comments? (none).

3. Preparing for ICANN 57

a. CCWG F2F currently allots 30 minutes to an update and discussion of Jurisdiction

matters. We need to determine how best to use this time.

David McAuley: will we have remote participation?

Bernard Turcotte: yes, but probably not the same URLs for the Adobe rooms - the URLs will be published ahead of time.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): I feel we should focus those 30 minutes to talk about the "influence" doc, concentrating on specific issues.

Greg Shatan: Agree with this suggestion from JC. Would like for this group to do more work on this document prior to presenting in Hyderabad.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Another reason to just work in UTC for planning

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): If lightning talks come from people with relevant experiences, preferably from outside our subgroup, that could enrich us

Kavous Arasteh: Will we have the final documents ahead of time?

Greg Shatan: How about 1200UTC Sunday. No objections.

Kavous Arasteh: In the update in 4 we must include any open questions we need to raise with the plenary.

Greg Shatan: Given the 30 minutes and that there are many questions - I think we should focus on questions wrt to the Influence document.

Kavouss Arasteh: Could we make a short list of these open questions

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Agree with Greg: let's do some practical stuff focusing on the "influence" doc

Greg Shatan: Someone has brought up the question of Immunity - but it is classified as a remedy - as such we should agree on what the Issues are.

Kavouss Arasteh: Grec, it would good that in the progress report you indicate average no. of participants

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): We don't need to enter the immunity discussion. But the doc should not prejudge or conclude anything

Kavouss Arasteh: what is " immunity discussion pls

Paul McGrady: Just for the empowered community?

Greg Shatan: No, more about making ICANN immune like NGOs etc.

Paul McGrady: If this would happen it would undo all the accountability work we have just completed in WS1.

Greg Shatan: There is much work to do even before we even consider this point.

Paul McGrady: All horrible tends to grow in this environment - I think this is a horrible idea and hope it will not grow.

Jorge Cancio: Immunity was inserted last week in the Multiple layers document. then there was another addition as an Addition vs a Suggestion that immunity would block accountability measures and should only be a suggestion. Agree with GS that it is early days and we should focus on the influence document. We cannot dismiss immunity without proper discussion and as such we should not jump to conclusions. In the Multiples layers document we should simply note that we will get to this if necessary.

Greg Shatan: offending text now changed to suggestion mode.

Greg Shatan: We should not raise immunity within the 30 minutes in Hyderabad. Any comments on the Influence document? much text has been added and you have until Sunday to insert comments. (Presentation of influence document) Section C is the heart of the document but t is unfortunately empty at this time.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Let's focus on real life issues for the community - this "influence" doc is a good basis for gathering also inputs from the community

Kavous Arasteh: If you refer to California law please include or hyperlink the document so we understand the references.

Greg Shatan: good suggestion will look at doing this. We will circulate the latest copy of this document after this call. Parminder's issues are around the power of the state. JC is more about choice of law.

Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): @Greg: could we at some time circulate this to registries, registrars and others directly affected in order to gather their impressions? We need to listen to real-life needs... otherwise we may get into an academic exercise with all due respect to academics of course :P

Kavous Arasteh: not distribute widely at this point.

Greg Shatan: I take what JC has said to mean “at some point” - so. Also ICANN has a list of legal issues it has been involved in - we should ask staff to distribute this to this group. It is essential everyone participate in producing these documents. Encourage everyone to participate in this document.

4. Reporting on our Progress

Greg Shatan: will fill out the slide for Hyderabad and circulate. Any other comments? (none). Would ask everyone to look at the progress report and the Influence document. AOB ( none). Adjourned

Documents Presented

Influence JurisdictionsPolicyAccountability.pdf

MultipleLayersofJurisdiction (1).pdf

Chat Transcript

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Welcome all to the Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #9 | on Thursday, 27 October @ 19:  00 UTC!

   Yvette Guigneaux:  This meeting will be recorded.    Press *6 to mute and unmute your phone

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Dear Yevette

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Good day

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Hello Kavouss - good day to you

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Yevette

  Kavouss Arasteh:  I will make an statemnt at the begining of the meeting as follows

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Pls kindly insert that in the transcription or Notes

  Kavouss Arasteh:    Statement

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Statement from Kavouss ArastehWhile the works of all subgroup are important and valuable and their efforts are fully recognized and highly appreciate, I as a Member of CCWG associate a very high degree of importance to a mutually accepted output of Jurisdiction sub group.I hope our expectations would be realized and the group produce an output which properly and legally address the case under consideration.It would be totally inacceptable, disappointing and frustrating to either end up with status quoi or a Watered town product.The  overwhelming majority community, in particular those which are still skeptical to the concept of multistakeholder approach, are carefully monitoring the output of this group to join others getting assurance that this fundamental, crucial and important issue is concluded with  satisfactory resultsWe count on all of you and ,in particular, count on the able chairman to explore all his expertise, skills, competence, knowledge and fairness in this regard    

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Hi Fin, will you be in Hyderabad?

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  hi all

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Gee Avri it seems like only hours  since  we were on a call together ;-)

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Hi Greg

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  @Kavous - done

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Tks ,pls add s after work to become works

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Ready to start whenever you are Greg  =)

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Scrolling available

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Grec pls assure me of the actions requied

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Thx Greg that seems reasonable  of course comments to list  will also be considered

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Dear Greg:    the report seems quite balanced. But allow us some time to consider it, ok?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  I believe he mentiond  24 hrs as a GDoc open for comment Jorge

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  thanks, Cheryl! my connection tonight is awful...

  Milton Mueller:  how about just replacing "less drastic" with "another"?

  Wale Bakare:  Hi everyone

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  +1 Milton (plain and simple)

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Happy to switch out  "drastic" 

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  yes

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Hi Wale - there was quite a bit of noise on the line, so you're muted - if you wish to speak, just press *6 on your phone to unmute

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Just wanted to make sure you are aware  =)

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  Kavous Arasteh:    Alternate solution - part starting with "IF the subgroup deems it is necessary to revisit this it will be done accordingly"

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  we have 30 minutes, right? what are your plans Greg?

  Milton Mueller:  30 minutes? LOL

  Wale Bakare:  Thanks Yvette..

  Yvette Guigneaux:  yw

  avri doria:  the jurisdiction comedy hour?

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  I feel we should focus those 30 minutes to talk about the "influence" doc, concentrating on specific issues

  Paul McGrady:  10.5 hours ahead of Sears Tower Time

  avri doria:  can't we just forget about DST?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):    Another reason to just work in UTC for planning

  Yvette Guigneaux:  lol Paul

  avri doria:  avoid confusion all of the WS2 mtgs are UTC  scheduled.  just keep using UTC. easy.  not tracking who is entering and who is exiting that insanity called DST

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Do you need that doc displayed Greg? 

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Especially the experience from registries and registrars and other parties could be brought in on the "influence" doc

  Yvette Guigneaux:  ok working on it

  Yvette Guigneaux:  i can display the muliple layers doc yes?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  agree totally Avri  no need to ever adjust anything with "just" UTC

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  I will publish the next version of the Hyderabad agenda with local time and UTC

  Milton Mueller:  3 min to hurl a thunderbolt

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  If lightning talks come from people with relevant experiences, preferably from outside our subgroup, that could enrich us

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Greg - google doc is "influence of exist jurisdictions" yes?  if so i got it, need display?

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Just let me know and i'll get it on the screen now

  Christopher Wilkinson:  @ Timezone:    India is on UTC+5.30

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Could we make a short list of these open questions

  Christopher Wilkinson:  Europe goes off summer time 30 October

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Agree with Greg:    let's do some practical stuff focusing on the "influence" doc

  Kavouss Arasteh:  summary

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Amrita - for the record, may i kindly have your last name?

  Amrita:  Vasudevan

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Thank you Amrita

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Grec, it would good that in the progess report you indicate average no. of participants

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  We don't need to enter into the immunity discussion. But the doc should not prejudge or conclude anything

  Kavouss Arasteh:  what is " immunity2 discussion pls

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Scrolling available

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  @KA - Presentation on Dash Board at beginning of Face to Face will include participation metrics

  Kavouss Arasteh:    TKS bERNI, BY SO/AC

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  27 minutes to the top of the hour

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Greg the other version for the multipl layers of jurisdiction with comments do you need that displayed? have it if you need it

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  I will need to leave for my next call a bit before the top of the hour apologies in advance fr when that happens

  Milton Mueller:  yes, horrible

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  SO  True!  Paul

  Yvette Guigneaux:  copy that Cheryl - and safe travels to you

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  and to you :  -)   I assume we will meet in Hyderabad?

  Kavouss Arasteh:  i RAISED THE HAND BEFORE jORGE

  Wale Bakare:  Should we not explain "immunity" against what? 

  Paul McGrady:  @Jorge - it is retty much the most black and white, uncomplicated issue I have ever encounntered in participating in ICANN.  It is a really, really bad idea.

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Grec, would you kindly give me the floor

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Dear Paul, that is really something that merits a serious discussion

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Cheryl, not hyderabad this time around for me, sorry -hopefully Copenhagen  =)

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Pity... I look forward to the opportunity at ICANN 58 then Yvette

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  ssorry

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Me too, thanks

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Let's focus on real life issues for the community - this "influence" doc is a good basis for gathering also inputs from the community

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  The doc on screen is not the last version, right?

  Wale Bakare:  Exactly so @Jorge

  Kavouss Arasteh:  It would help if its is attached

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  14 minutes to top of hour

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Jorge, it is not

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Apparently the "hand raised" button on the top of the AC room isn't working properly - so we will look next to your name for a raised hand - just so everyone is aware

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  @Greg:    could we at some time circulate this to registries, registrars and others  directly affected in order to gather their impressions?

  Yvette Guigneaux:  still go ahead and push that button - and we'll look for raised hands next to your name, our apologies for any inconvenience

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Greg- Kavouss has a raised hand

  Yvette Guigneaux:  got it, good

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  We need to listen to real-life needs... otherwise we may get into an academic exercise

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  with all due respect to academics of course :  P

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  indeed Jorge

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Time Check - 10 min to the top of the hour

  Milton Mueller:  Was .AFRICA in the US courts or was it resolved by the IRP?

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  I think the AUC has a dedicated website to the .africa issue

  Milton Mueller:  ok got it thx

  Milton Mueller:  right

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  right

  Milton Mueller:  no, we want you to do all the work, Greg

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  :  D

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  :  -)

  Kavouss Arasteh:  Grec,After the meeting pls read yr mail box

  Wale Bakare:  Jorge, permit me to ask if you can share the AUC website regarding .Africa here

  Milton Mueller:  what day is the 30 min meeting?

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  Nov 2

  Kavouss Arasteh:  02 November

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  would need to look it up - don't have it handy, sorry

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Sorry Greg and everyone  I need to leave now for my next call...  Safe travels  any ne who is heading to Hyderabad... Catch up soon...  Bye for now

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  at the Face to Face meeting of the CCWG

  Milton Mueller:  thx

  Milton Mueller:  :  )

  Yvette Guigneaux:  HAHAHA  - GREG

  Yvette Guigneaux:  YES!

  Yvette Guigneaux:  LOL

  Steve DelBianco 2:  Lou Gehrig

  Milton Mueller:  and stayed awake during that movie...

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Safe travels to India everyone!  =)

  Philip Corwin:  Get better Greg. See you in Hyderabad

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:  bye all

  Wale Bakare:  thanks, bye all

  Nigel Hickson:  bye; thanks

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  bye all, thanks!

 



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