Members: Becky Burr, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Finn Petersen, Fiona Asonga, Izumi Okutani, James Bladel, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julie Hammer, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Michael Abejuela, Robin Gross, Rosalia Morales, Sebastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Thomas Rickert, Tijani Ben Jemaa
Participants: Asha Hemrajani, Avri Doria, Barack Otieno, Christopher Wilkinson, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Francis Olivier Cubahiro, Greg Shatan, Herb Waye, John Laprise, Julf Helsingius, Keith Drazek, Khaled Koubaa, Lori Schulman, Megan Richards, Michael Karanicolas, Philip Corwin, Renata Aquino Ribeiro, Ricardo Holmquist, Rika Tsunoda, Sam Lanfranco, Seun Ojedeji, Wolfgang Kleinwaechter, Yusuke Kaneko
Guests:
Staff: Anne-Rachel Inne, Bernard Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry, Laena Rahim, Meghan Healy, Nathalie Vergnolle, Nigel Hickson, Patrick Dodson, Yvette Guigneaux
Observers: Taylor RW Bentley
Apologies: Alan Greenberg, Olga Cavalli, Niels ten Oever, Jorge Cancio
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
Agenda
1. Introduction, update to SOIs, reminder on standards of behavior
2. Review of Agenda
3. Administration
4. Legal Committee Update
5. Updates/Presentation from sub-groups
6. Next Plenary
7. AOB
8. Adjournment
Notes
Notes: (including relvant portions of chat)
26 Participants at start of call
1. Introduction, update to SOIs, reminder on standards of behavior
Thomas Rickert - Now a member of NIC AT advisory Board. Will update SOI.
2. Review of Agenda
Kavouss Arateh - Need to reconsider the work of the Jurisdiction group progress and methods at the level of the plenary.
Mathieu Weill - propose initial discussion in AOB and prepare a full intervention for the next plenary. Any objections? (none)
avri doria: One value in Matthieus approach is that it allows all the protagnists to show up for the conversation.
avri doria: but we should have the conversation and not avoid ahaving the discussion
3. Administration
Patrick Dodson - We will be turning on captioning for all WS2 calls in the short term as a follow on to the Captioning trial earlier this year. Will consider if we still need the transcription service later on.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): captioning will be a great asset.
FIONA ASONGA: + Cheryl, Patrick
Leon Sanchez: This is a "yes we can" moment :-)
avri doria: captioning is great. will help a lot when attending overlapping meetings.
Sebastien Bachollet - any link of captioning with the interpretation request from Diversity? Also on public comment type things the Ombuds team is working with the evaluator who was been interviewing people and will also publish a questionnaire at then end of the week.
Patrick Dodson: Sebastien, two different topics, and we are still circulating the official request for interpretation internally.
Patrick Dodson: Coordinating with language services and PCST.
Mathieu Weill - Action Item - Staff to ask the plenary list if members know of people preparing input for the public comments.
Decision – Captioning will be provided for all WS2 meeting including sub-groups.
Action Item – Staff to write to plenary list to inquire who is preparing to respond, or knows of people who will, to the Good Faith and Transparency Public Consultations.
4. Legal Committee Update
Leon Sachez - Pending is the Jurisdiction questions. Have asked for an update from ICANN legal this week but have yet to receeive a reply.
5. Updates/Presentation from sub-groups
SO/AC Accountability - Second Reading
Cheryl Langdon-Orr - Thanks to all for the contributions.
Steve DelBianco - (presentation of red-line version from the first reading). https://community.icann.org/x/lBWOAw
Christopher Wilkinson - Prefer we use Gender Balance - Also want to know what happened to MART.
Steve DelBianco - CW - for Diversity we are waiting for the Diversity sub-group to complete their work. as to the MART this is the next part of the topic.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): so it acts as a placeholder for any outcomes of the Diversity WT in our dimensions reference
Greg Shatan: We should clarify that SO/AC reviews should also take these best practices into account.
Jordan Carter: Steve, I think the way that you've included this and taken the feedback from the plenary on board makes sense. it's probably about as far as can be gone at this point.
Kavuss Arasteh - In the Outreach - the membership ranking - what is this? What about REQUIRED at the end?
Steve DelBianco - there is no ranking of memberships. We also have not used REQUIRED.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Kavouss, just did a double check in the doc on "require". I confirm Steve's statement.
Steve DelBianco: we can just drop "ranks" from that sentence
Farzaneh Badii: I agree with dropping ranks on page 7
Steve DelBianco: on pages 7-8 we recommend that ICANN place these Best PRactices in the Policies & Procedures for Reviews
Julie Hammer - re MART - remember people wanting to add to this recommendation. I was unware that we were considering bringing back MART which I do not agree with - I think the original recommendation from the group was not objected by that many people.
Steve DelBianco - Our original recommendation was that there was no requirement to implement, The new text has it as an option.
Izumi Okutani (ASO): I have the same impression as Julie while I was not physically attending the meeting and was attending remotely
CW: Julie +1. I am supporting exchange of best practice and mutual transparency. However, mutual accountability could lead to conflicts of interest.
Greg Shatan - JH makes a good point - mutual accountability seems to include more that what we are looking at which is just a discussion of areas of mutual accountability. Would suggest not calling a MART but rather a round table on mutual accountability.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): +1 Greg. Absolutely agree.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr - @GS - we agree as rapporteurs were going to consider changing the nomenclature.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Yes, agree to remove the term MART altogether.
Jordan Carter - This is just about putting accountavility on the agenda - we can change the name.
Sebastien Bachollet - really feel accountability must be mutual. We need this.
CW: @ Julie. Now I get it! There is NO WAY SSAC is 'accountbaile' to the other SOAC. I want to see an independent SSAC.
avri doria: in fact the notion of mutual accountabilty seems almost a fundamental part of the multistakeholder enterprise.
Jordan Carter: if icann's culture would turn a "mutual" approach into unpleasant and unconstructive point scoring, we have to change the culture - starting with a broad based conversation might start that.
Kavouss Arasteh - Support SB.
Steve DelBianco: True, CW. We can remove "mutual" so that the conversation / roundtable is about sharing experiences with accountability TO THEIR DESIGNATED COMMUNITIES
Jordan Carter: CW: but other SOs and ACs can and should be able to quiz SSAC on decisions it makes within ICANN - and vice versa too.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): @CW SSAC should be accountable to the Board and the Community for the quality of its advice.
Jordan Carter: Doesn't in the slightest compromise its independence.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): @Jordan Yes, agree.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr - we will take this back to the group for a look at the nomenclature.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): @Jordan Yes, agree.
Steve DelBianco: and we are dropping the word Ranks.
avri doria: is it just an issue of nomenclature?
Jordan Carter: Avri: my sense is that people don't want anyone questioning their decisions
avri doria: i dis not hear a 'just nomenclature' discussion
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): that's part of it Avri
Jordan Carter: I heard that that echoes in ICANN's current culture in a threatening way
avri doria: Jordan, that may be the case. we would all prefer to be totally autonomous without any accountabilty.
Wolfgang: Part of the Board Accountability discussion was the option to spill the board or to remove individual board directors. My question is did you discuss procedures how to remove individual council or committee members?
avri doria: accountabilty to the whole.
avri doria: Wolfgang< i do not beleive removing council members of other reps was discussed.
Jordan Carter: I think this sub-group decided not to apply those powers to SO and AC or subgroups
Thomas Rickert - Looking to remove MUTUAL and RANKING. With those two changes in mind any objections to accepting this as a second reading?
Sebastien Bachollet - Do not agree.
avri doria: i will support sebatien on this
Thomas Rickert - given there are no other objections except AD and KA. As such we will consider this accepted for a second reading. Would invite those people to put in a comment in the public comment on this document.
Sebastien Bachollet - do not agree and should not go to public comment.
Thomas Rickert - SB this is not our process where only a minority object blocks publication. This has followed our process and been accepted per that process.
Steve DelBianco - Am confident the sub-group would accept dropping MUTUAL. So there is no purpose in the SB request as the sub-group was never comfortable recommending the MART.
Avri Doria - will join SB that we need mutual accountability. Do not agree we take out MUTUAL (procedural POV). If we want to edit it it needs to go back to the group.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Thomas, I think there has been ample discussion in the subgroup as well as in the plenary at this point.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Publishing this document and seeking the reactions of the SO/AC Chartering Organisations on this issue would be helpful.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Support your proposed way forward.
John Laprise: +1 Avri & Sebastien
Cheryl Langdon-Orr - We could publish as is.
Izumi Okutani (ASO): I agree with the suggested way forward by Cheryl and Thomas. Avri's comment on bringining to attention makes sense
Thomas Rickert - Agree with AD - so recommend we make clear in the public consultation about the discussion around Mutual. Any objections? (1 SB). Accepted as a second reading. So not full consensus but consensus.
Sebastien Bachollet - I did put up a red cross and oppose strongly.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr - disagree with SDB on interpretation.
Thomas Rickert - I do not think this document needs to go back to the sub-team as there are only two edits - remove RANK and Mutual. Additionally in the announcement we will clearly mention that there was a debate on having the word Mutual. Do not see a need for revision of the sub-team.
avri doria: I vote against Steve's understanding.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): happy to support your way forward Thomas
Izumi Okutani (ASO): + 1 Cheryl
avri doria: i do not support. but give up. for today.
Greg Shatan: There can be two concepts of mutual accountability: (1) Each SO/AC to each other SO/AC (multiple bilateral accountabiloity) or (2
avri doria: i support the second option as well
Lori Schulman: Agree with Greg and Avir
Diversity questionnaire - second reading -
Fiona Asonga - (Presentation of edited document - sound issues)
Leon Sanchez - (presentation of document) objections to this being a successful second reading? (none).
Julie Hammer (SSAC): This version incorporates all the suggestions and feedback from the Plenary in CPH.
avri doria: there was not agreement on tis in the subgroup as far as i know. what good is the report before the questionnaire?
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: +1
FIONA ASONGA 2: We did as a subgroup discuss and agree to proceed with the questionnaire first
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: option 1
avri doria: i asume we want the questionnaire answered.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: publish the questionnaire to get answers
FIONA ASONGA 2: The questionnaire needs to be answered to guide us on the recommendations
Julie Hammer (SSAC): Sorry Bernie, I missed that subtle difference.
FIONA ASONGA 2: I would seek advise on what the minimun period for public comments is as required within ICANN
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: 42 days
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: BUt request to SO/AC take 2 to 3 months
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: how long did the so/ac questionnaire take?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: See precedent of SO/AC Acct
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: our questionnnaire has 1/3 the size
FIONA ASONGA 2: Ok then that means we will just have to go out with some draft recomendations
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: That was the rationale in Copenhagen
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: sorry Leon didn't get that
FIONA ASONGA 2: The challenge is that the recommendations will not have been though t through in view of the responses
Mathieu Weill - We have accepted the questionnaire at the second reading and would ask the sub-group to consider how to proceed with it taking into account the timelines.
FIONA ASONGA 2: The Action Item for the diversity group is acceptable
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: Thanks Fiona
6. Next Plenary
7. AOB
Mathieu Weill - onto AOB.
Kavouss Arasteh - (no audio)
Mathieu Weill - would GS be prepared to give an update on the progress and the workplan at the next plenary? Action Item.
Greg Shatan - agree.
Mathieu Weill - adjourned.
8. Adjournment
Decisions:
- Captioning service will be provided for all WS2 meeting ASAP
- SOAC Accountability draft recommendations successfully completed second reading and should be published for public consultation with the following conditions:
- Remove RANK and Mutual (in MAR)
- Public Consultation Announcement should summarize the issues around removing Mutual from MAR.
- Diversity Questionnaire successfully completed second reading. The Diversity sub-group will consider at its next meeting how to proceed with this.
Action items:
- Staff to write to plenary list to inquire who is preparing to respond, or knows of people/groups who will, to the Good Faith and Transparency Public Consultations.
- Staff to publish SOAC Accountability Draft Recommendation for public consultation summarizing the issues around removing Mutual from MAR in the Announcement.
- Diversity sub-group to decide how to proceed with the survey.
- Greg Shatan to prepare an update for the next plenary on the Jurisdiction sub-group process, current work approach and progress.
Documents
- CCWG-WS2-Plenary-20170329-Slides-V1
- SO-AC Redline from plenary 1.0 to 1.1
- Diversity-QuestionnaireV1.0 to 1.1 red line
AC Chat
Brenda Brewer: (3/29/2017 07:34) Good day and welcome to CCWG Acccountability Plenary Meeting #15 on 29 March 2017 @ 13:00 UTC! **Please, kindly mute your phone (star 6) if you are not speaking - press *6 again to unmute. Thank you!
Steve DelBianco: (07:51) Brenda -- do yuo have the SOAC-Acountability redlne PDF we circulated? Would like to use that today
Brenda Brewer: (07:53) Yes, Steve. Thank you.
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:53) For the attention of Co-Chair, Befroe taking any point, we MUST approve Agenda
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (07:55) Review of agenda is item 2 on the agenda Kavouss.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (07:56) (Hello everyone)
Leon Sanchez: (07:56) Hello everyone
Farzaneh Badii: (07:58) oh there is a skype invasion
Farzaneh Badii: (07:58) it stopped
Kavouss Arasteh: (07:58) Dear Mathieu, I strongly advise you to take up the point that I raised this morning with co-chair in the agenda.
Julf Helsingius: (07:58) Skype is a branch of skynet?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (07:59) Sur Kavouss, will raise it
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (07:59) hi everyone
Herb Waye Ombuds: (07:59) Greetings everyone, it's nice to see the Anti-harassment and participation guidelines pop-up on the sign in page :-)
Francis Olivier CUBAHIRO (BURUNDI GAC): (07:59) Hello everyone
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (08:01) hello all
Seun Ojedeji: (08:02) Hi
Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih: (08:02) Good morning/afternoon all
Julf Helsingius: (08:03) Sounds like someone has mic unmuted
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (08:03) Mathieu has advised he will have some background noise
Brenda Brewer: (08:03) Barrack Otieno on audio only
Ricardo Holmquist: (08:04) Good day, sorry for being late
avri doria: (08:08) One value in Matthieus approach is that it allows all the protagnists to show up for the conversation.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:09) correct Mathieu
avri doria: (08:09) but we should have the conversation and not avoid ahaving the discussion
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:09) yes indeed we should!!!
Karen Mulberry: (08:10) Sorry on listen only - Bernie can you cover
Keith Drazek: (08:10) I support Mathieu's suggestion. Tee up the conversation in AOB to set the stage for further in-depth discussion on the next plenary call.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (08:11) Thanks Keith. Kavouss, I hope this is still acceptable to you as well
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:12) welcome Patrick
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (08:12) Warm welcome Patrick !
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (08:12) And Karen, don't go too far...
Patrick Dodson: (08:12) Hello everyone, happy to be here and looking forward to supporting this group in its work.
Karen Mulberry: (08:13) I will still be keeping up with all the WS2 activities
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (08:13) There is no way out Karen... You're one of us ;-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:13) no escape Karen :-)
CW: (08:15) On transparency, the SubGroup has not acted on my posting. Does that mean that I have to repeat everything in the public consultation. ,-(
CW: (08:15) ¿?
Lori Schulman: (08:15) My apologies for being late.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:16) hi
Jordan Carter: (08:17) hi all, now on Adobe
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:17) captioning will be a great asset.
FIONA ASONGA: (08:17) + Cheryl, Patrick
Leon Sanchez: (08:18) This is a "yes we can" moment :-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:18) :-)
CW: (08:20) +1 Mathieur: very difficult to find efficiently the sites for public comment.
avri doria: (08:20) captioning is great. will help a lot when attending overlapping meetings.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:20) yup
Jordan Carter: (08:21) CW:https://www.icann.org/public-comments#open-public
Patrick Dodson: (08:21) Sebastien, two diffferent topics, and we are still circulating the official request for interpretation internally.
Patrick Dodson: (08:22) Coordincating with language services and PCST.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (08:22) Hello all apologies for delay, connection challenges
Greg Shatan: (08:23) Hello, all.
Sebastien (ALAC) 2: (08:24) Yes the questionnaire regarding IOO will be send to the full list ASAP we have it. Thanks for answering then.
Greg Shatan: (08:24) I also sent a reminder to Sam yesterday requesting an ETA (or an ETA for that ETA), but have not yet received a reply.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (08:30) Time Check - 90 minutes left in call
Brenda Brewer: (08:30) this document can be located here (mid-page under Documents) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_lBWOAw&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=L_kcxMVP7ax7poOxd05gt_-ZeMac-VwTImVtnv6AJoM&s=E2ZY84HDDWQ88Q3NiZW8MAlAg9t3ufdGFph03ZGXmJU&e=
Michael Karanicolas: (08:30) Hi - sorry I'm late. Good timing, apparently.
Brenda Brewer: (08:31) SOAC Document named Redline from plenary
John Laprise: (08:36) Can we memorialize this intent? As nonbinding guidance?
avri doria: (08:36) Once upon a time, we assumed that ICANN included the SOAC & Groups. Still not sure why this is not already include implicitly.
Steve DelBianco: (08:37) that's what we recommend, John. In Policy & Procedures for review.
John Laprise: (08:37) :)
avri doria: (08:37) i.e not sure about the nedd to change bylaws.
avri doria: (08:37) but maybe with the notion of ICANN changing to not really include the SOAC we may need to get explicit about it.
Steve DelBianco: (08:38) @CW: hang on just a bit longer. We are getting to page 32 for mutual accountability.
Farzaneh Badii: (08:38) Avri we received a specific comment that we need to add the groups to include the constitutencies of GNSO
avri doria: (08:38) not compaining about groups. i think it also applies to RALOs and any subgroups any SOAC creates.
Farzaneh Badii: (08:39) true
avri doria: (08:39) was not even speaking of the inclusion fo groups, though do admit it did catch my attention.
Farzaneh Badii: (08:40) so what are you complaining about :)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:40) so it acts as a placeholder for any outcomes of the Diversity WT in our dimensions reference
avri doria: (08:40) was speaking of the need to include ATRT consideration of SOAC accountabilty issues in the bylaws
avri doria: (08:40) and not being sure about the need to do.
CW: (08:41) Regret for logistical and timing reasons, not able to join the CCWG plenary in CPH.
Greg Shatan: (08:41) We should clarify that SO/AC reviews should also take these best practices into account.
Jordan Carter: (08:42) Steve, I think the way that you've included this and taken the feedback from the plenary on board makes sense. it's probably about as far as can be gone at this point.
Farzaneh Badii: (08:42) I don't have anything else to add thanks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:42) ahhh that is where this all came from... our 1st reading in CPH
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (08:46) Kavouss, just did a double check in the doc on "require". I confirm Steve's statement.
Jordan Carter: (08:47) it means among their participants
Jordan Carter: (08:47) "from among their ranks"
Steve DelBianco: (08:48) we can just drop "ranks" from that sentence
Farzaneh Badii: (08:49) I agree with dropping ranks on page 7
Steve DelBianco: (08:49) on pages 7-8 we recommend that ICANN place these Best PRactices in the Policies & Procedures for Reviews
Jordan Carter: (08:51) I like this language because I think that it doesn't create a formal institution, but does give the chance to have a conversation
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:51) distorted speech very closed to mic
Kavouss Arasteh: (08:51) There is interruption between syllabus
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (08:53) I have the same impression as Julie while I was not physically attending the meeting and was attending remotely
CW: (08:53) Julie +1. I am supporting exchange of best practice and mutual transparency. However, mutual accountability could lead to conflicts of interest.
Farzaneh Badii: (08:54) I think we can discuss what we call it during our the group meeting and consider these comments
Jordan Carter: (08:54) I don't see how there's a conflcit of interest in the various parts of ICANN's community helping each other to be accountable
Greg Shatan: (08:55) "Help" is no always what is offered....
Francis Olivier CUBAHIRO (BURUNDI GAC): (08:55) I am supporting exchange of best practice too
Farzaneh Badii: (08:56) lets get rid of the word mutual
Farzaneh Badii: (08:56) I think that is the problem. not the word accountability
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (08:56) +1 Greg. Absolutely agree.
Greg Shatan: (08:57) I have powers far beyond those of mortal men.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (08:57) Yes, agree to remove the term MART altogether.
Greg Shatan: (08:57) :-)
Farzaneh Badii: (08:58) only Satan has those powers
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (08:59) yes we ( the Rapouteurs) think so too Jordan
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (08:59) Yes, agree with you Jordan
Jordan Carter: (09:00) having the discussion on the table is the start
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (09:00) Time Check - one hour left
CW: (09:00) @ Julie. Now I get it! There is NO WAY SSAC is 'accountbaile' to the other SOAC. I want to see an independent SSAC.
avri doria: (09:00) in fact the notion of mutual accountabilty seems almost a fundamental part of the multistakeholder enterprise.
Jordan Carter: (09:00) if icann's culture would turn a "mutual" approach into unpleasant and unconstructive point scoring, we have to change the culture - starting with a broad based conversation might start that.
Steve DelBianco: (09:01) True, CW. We can remove "mutual" so that the conversation / roundtable is about sharing experiences with accountability TO THEIR DESIGNATED COMMUNITIES
Jordan Carter: (09:01) CW: but other SOs and ACs can and should be able to quiz SSAC on decisions it makes within ICANN - and vice versa too.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (09:01) @CW SSAC should be accountable to the Board and the Community for the quality of its advice.
Jordan Carter: (09:01) Doesn't in the slightest compromise its independence.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (09:02) @Jordan Yes, agree.
Steve DelBianco: (09:02) and we are dropping the word Ranks.
avri doria: (09:03) is it just an issue of nomenclature?
Jordan Carter: (09:03) Avri: my sense is that people don't want anyone questioning their decisions
avri doria: (09:03) i dis not hear a 'just nomenclature' discussion
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:03) that's part of it Avri
Jordan Carter: (09:04) I heard that that echoes in ICANN's current culture in a threatening way
avri doria: (09:04) Jordan, that may be the case. we would all prefer to be totally autonomous without any accountabilty.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:04) Looking for some prime time fame Thomas ? Turn on the video !
Wolfgang: (09:04) Part of the Board Accountability discussion was the option to spill the board or to remove individual board directors. My question is did you discuss procedures how to remove individual council or committee members?
avri doria: (09:04) accountabilty to the whole.
avri doria: (09:04) Wolfgang< i do not beleive removing council members of other reps was discussed.
Jordan Carter: (09:05) I think this sub-group decided not to apply those powers to SO and AC or subgroups
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:05) It does not appear to be part of the list of best practices at this point
avri doria: (09:06) right ut the full group needs to decide whether the outcome results in accountable SOACs.
CW: (09:06) Have to leave the call for another committment. Thankyou for considering the points that I have made.
Farzaneh Badii: (09:06) no we did not discuss removals but we provided a best practice that procedure for removal should be transparent and there should be an appeal mechanism etc
Farzaneh Badii: (09:07) of course we did not go through each SO/AC and dictate what they should individually do. I don't think that's what we should do
avri doria: (09:07) i will support sebatien on this
Steve DelBianco: (09:09) @Kavouss -- do you really support the word "mutual" in front of Accountability?
avri doria: (09:10) well the subgroup included mutual. it seems the plenary want to remove it. sending it back to the subgroup would not seem to help.
Steve DelBianco: (09:10) That's right, Avri. I believe htat our subgroup will happily drop "mutual"
avri doria: (09:11) Yeah Steve, while I support it, i was surprised at Kavouss supporting it.
Farzaneh Badii: (09:11) We discussed MAR with the group at lenght. for a very long time. It comes as a great surprise to me that somepme who was avidly against it is supporting it. am curious to know the reason.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:12) Thomas, I think there has been ample discussion in the subgroup as well as in the plenary at this point.
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (09:12) Publishing this document and seeking the reactions of the SO/AC Chartering Organisations on this issue would be helpful.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:13) Support your proposed way forward.
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:13) Good suggestion Julie.
Jordan Carter: (09:13) can anyone hear anything?
Greg Shatan: (09:13) Yes
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:13) Yes
Farzaneh Badii: (09:14) we didn't throw out the notion in the beginning. we discussed it many times
Farzaneh Badii: (09:14) there was just not enough support for it
Greg Shatan: (09:15) Apologies for not knowing -- what is the overall position on Mutual Accountability?
John Laprise: (09:15) +1 Avri & Sebastien
Greg Shatan: (09:16) (Not just "roundtables" but the larger issue)
Farzaneh Badii: (09:16) totally agree Cheryl. it was repeatedly discussed
avri doria: (09:16) i am taking it as is.
avri doria: (09:16) but if we need to reopen it, i will ask that we truly reopen it.
Greg Shatan: (09:17) Need to find a non-duplicative chat colour.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:17) Me too
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:17) I agree with the suggested way forward by Cheryl and Thomas. Avri's comment on bringining to attention makes sense
avri doria: (09:17) i have stuck with brown since fist picking it, but havve been willing to share.
Greg Shatan: (09:19) I started with purple, then moved to red as my regular colour, but Mathieu took red today, so I moved on to brown, and now blue, which seems unclaimed. But thank you for being willing to share!
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:20) Is Orange free ?
Farzaneh Badii: (09:20) nothing wrong with pink either
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:20) PInk is Robin usually
avri doria: (09:21) confusion are we sending it out with word Mutual in or removed?
Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (09:22) removed, Avri
Seun Ojedeji: (09:22) I belive Steve confirmed Removed
avri doria: (09:22) eck. i thought we had decided to leave it in.bummer, ten add my red cha
Farzaneh Badii: (09:23) I think we should remove "mutual" . there is not enough support for it.
avri doria: (09:23) sorry that got confused. i vote red check if we are removing the word Mutual.
avri doria: (09:23) [i thought we had decided to leave it in.
Greg Shatan: (09:23) That would seem to take care of the Mutual Accountability Roundtable as being a forum for the exercise of mutual accountability.
avri doria: (09:24) yes, conversationally at least, even if not enforceably.
avri doria: (09:24) i think i protest the way this went.
Greg Shatan: (09:24) Glad I asked the question.... :-)
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:25) Description by Steve Delbianco is consistent with my understanding - each SO and AC accountability to their respective group, not to each other. Rountable is to share each others practices. Thank you for clarifying it Steve.
avri doria: (09:25) i thought that is what we were 'voting' on.
Farzaneh Badii: (09:26) well then there should be a question specifically seeking public comment on whether the concept of "mutual accountability roundtable" should be implemented.. and if the term "mutual accountability" is acceptable
Greg Shatan: (09:26) I would suggest removing it, but dropping in a footnote on the issue, and perhaps an express question on the point.
avri doria: (09:26) if we are not mutually accountable, we leave the balancing to the Board.
Greg Shatan: (09:26) @Farzi, great minds....
Steve DelBianco: (09:26) My understanding is that we remove "Mutual" and add sentence explaining that a minority prefer to include the term and the concept that SO/ACs are accoutnable to each other,
avri doria: (09:27) I vote agains Steve's understanding.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:27) happy to support your way forward Thomas
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:28) + 1 Cheryl
avri doria: (09:28) i do not support. but give up. for today.
Greg Shatan: (09:29) There can be two concepts of mutual accountability: (1) Each SO/AC to each other SO/AC (multiple bilateral accountabiloity) or (2) accountabiity of each SO/AC to the "plenum" of SO/ACs. I would support the second but not the first.
avri doria: (09:29) i support the second option as well
Lori Schulman: (09:30) Agree with
Lori Schulman: (09:30) Agree with Greg and Avir
Lori Schulman: (09:30) Avri
Farzaneh Badii: (09:31) I have to go to work now. Sorry and bye everyone
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:32) thanks Farzi
Brenda Brewer: (09:32) will try to get a better connection with Fiona.
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:33) I have changed my device
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (09:33) This version incorporates allthe suggestions and feedback from the Plenary in CPH
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:36) Thanks Leon for the run through
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (09:36) Time Check - 23 minutes left in call
avri doria: (09:39) there was not agreement on tis in the subgroup as far as i know. what good is the report before the questionnaire?
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:40) +1
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:41) We did as a subgroup discuss and agree to proceed with the questionnaire first
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:41) option 1
avri doria: (09:41) i asume we want the questionnaire answered.
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:41) publish the questionnaire to get answers
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:41) The questionnaire needs to be answered to guide us on the recommendations
Julie Hammer (SSAC): (09:42) Sorry Bernie, I missed that subtle difference.
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:43) I would seek advise on what the minimun period for public comments is as required within ICANN
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:43) 42 days
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:43) BUt request to SO/AC take 2 to 3 months
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:43) how long did the so/ac questionnaire take?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:43) See precedent of SO/AC Acct
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:44) our questionnnaire has 1/3 the size
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:44) Ok then that means we will just have to go out with some draft recomendations
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:44) That was the rationale in Copenhagen
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:45) sorry Leon didn't get that
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:45) The challenge is that the recommendations will not have been though t through in view of the responses
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:46) The Action Item for the diversity group is acceptable
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (09:46) Thanks Fiona
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:47) Thanks all
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:47) thanks
Julf Helsingius: (09:47) Thanks!
Greg Shatan: (09:48) Lots of background chatter on the line...
Leon Sanchez: (09:50) Thanks everyone!
Leon Sanchez: (09:50) good call
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (09:51) thx bye
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (09:51) thanks all!
Jordan Carter: (09:51) thanks all
Greg Shatan: (09:51) Thank you all. Bye!
avri doria: (09:51) bye
Seun Ojedeji: (09:51) Thanks
Seun Ojedeji: (09:51) bye
FIONA ASONGA 2: (09:51) Thanks and bye
Nigel Hickson: (09:51) goodbye
Renata Aquino Ribeiro: (09:51) thanks, bye
Michael Abejuela (ASO): (09:51) thanks everyone!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (09:51) bye all
Julf Helsingius: (09:51) Thank you everyone! Bye!
