Sub-group Members:   Chris Wilson, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Herb Waye, Kavouss Arasteh, Philip Corwin, Par Brumark, Steve DalBianco, Thiago Jardim, Wale Bakare

Observers/Guests:  Thomas Rickert

ICANN Org:  Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Meghan Healy, Nigel Hickson

Apologies:  Raphael Beauregard LaCroix, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Andreea Brambilla, Jorge Cancio, Finn Petersen

 ** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to **




1.  Welcome

2.  Review of Agenda (2 minutes)

3.  Administration (1 minute)

    1. Changes to SOIs
    2. Identify Audio Only and Phone Number Participants

4.  Complete Discussion of “OFAC Recommendation” (15 minutes)

5.  Discussion of “Applicable Law and Choice of Venue Recommendation” (40 minutes)

    1. Choice of law provision in registry agreements – does the Subgroup endorse the “Menu” option – a limited number of choices (e.g., one per region)
    2. Choice of law provision in registrar accreditation agreements
      1.  Same choices as above?  Same result?
    3. Choice of venue provision in registry agreements
      1. “Status Quo” (Los Angeles, California (or for governments and IGOs, Geneva, Switzerland))
      2. “Venue Menu” option – a limited number of choices (e.g., one per region) of arbitration venues (all applying ICC rules)
    4. How should these recommendations be framed?
      1.   Are these only negotiating points between ICANN and the contracted party?

6.  Review of Revised “Proposed Issues” List (5 minutes)

7.  Review of Schedule and Timeline (5 minutes)

8.  AOB (5 minutes)

        9.  Adjourn (next meeting 11 October 1900UTC)

Raw Captioning Notes

Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way. 


Action Items:


Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

  Brenda Brewer: (10/4/2017 07:42) Good day!  Welcome to WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #49 on 4 October 2017 @ 13:00 UTC!

  Brenda Brewer: (07:42) When not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6). To unmute, *6. This call is recorded.

  Brenda Brewer: (07:42) Reminder to all, for captioning and transcription, please  state your name before speaking and speak slowly.  Thank you.

  Captioner: (07:51) Hello!  Could you please tell me who the Rapporteur will be for this meeting?

  Brenda Brewer: (07:51) Greg Shatan

  Captioner: (07:51) Thank you very much!

  Brenda Brewer: (07:55) Kavouss, requesting dialout to you now.  Please stand by.

  Kavouss Arasteh: (07:57) Dear Brenda, Hi

  Kavouss Arasteh: (07:58) I am waiting to be dialed up

  Brenda Brewer: (08:00) Operator should be dialing you any moment, Kavouss.  Thank you.

  Wale Bakare: (08:00) Hi all, good morning/afternoon/evening

  David McAuley: (08:01) I am #4154

  Philip Corwin: (08:02) Good day to all in all jurisdictions

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:02) hi all

  Brenda Brewer: (08:05) Kavouss, we have updated number for your hotel.  Dial out is still in progress.

  David McAuley: (08:05) conversion done

  David McAuley: (08:06) and Finn as well

  David McAuley: (08:06) apology, that is

  Chris Wilson - Amazon: (08:07) Can scrolling be unlocked?

  Kavouss Arasteh: (08:08) During the last call of the Group it was said that media reports of actual companies is the wrong way to raise my oncerns.   Real examples like that are dismissed because the facts are in dispute.   That’s exactly what happened on the call.It was suggested to use the “Stress Test” method instead of quoting media reports about actual examples.  And Steve offered to help  to do that (see  chat message to at end of the call).It was therefore proposes a stress test  as follows:Scenario:  A registrar or reseller who has no legal jurisdiction in the US says that US sanctions prevent them from accepting a registration from an Iranian citizen.The Group is therefore is invited to accept , as a minimum , the concept of Stress Testand proceed accordingly.

  Kavouss Arasteh: (08:15) The above text was said bxy Steve and NOT me . I JUST put it in the context

  Chris Wilson - Amazon: (08:18) Do we have a sense of costs ICANN will incur when seeking OFAC licenses for a specific registry or registrar?  

  Philip Corwin: (08:19) Q - Does the term "residents of sanctioned countries" just rekate to individuals or also encompass business organizations and other entities?

  Philip Corwin: (08:19) relate

  Chris Wilson - Amazon: (08:19) We note ICANN should be prudent re such costs re general licenses, but no such comment re specific licenses.  

  Thiago Jardim: (08:19) Greg, I need to consider this further before aquiescing to it.

  Brenda Brewer: (08:19) Phone number ending with 5838, please identify name for attendance.  Thank you!

  Steve DelBianco: (08:20) I am willing to help with Stress Tests if the group wants to do so.

  Steve DelBianco: (08:20) Have to drop Adobe and will stay on the dial-in

  Thiago Jardim: (08:22) Greg.. as to this change from residents to entities.

  Thiago Jardim: (08:23) shouldn't it be specified that these are entities "residing" in the given location... as was the case of residents

  Thiago Jardim: (08:23) ?

  Chris Wilson - Amazon: (08:24) Ok.  Thanks.

  Thiago Jardim: (08:26) the given location is the US, juyst to be clear

  Kavouss Arasteh: (08:26) Thiago+1

  Thiago Jardim: (08:28) The language used in the OFAC website says "“U.S. persons must comply with OFAC regulations, including all U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens regardless of where they are located, all persons and entities within the United States, all U.S. incorporated entities and their foreign branches"

  Thiago Jardim: (08:28) Quoting that to support the point that the relevant place of "residence" is the US

  Thiago Jardim: (08:31) Apoligies, I realise now that the "residents" here is the one in the recommendation part and refers to sanctioned countries, isn't that so?

  Greg Shatan: (08:31) Thiago, yes, I believe that is the instance being referred to.

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (08:33) As I have said we will probably not be able to get to OFAC  on the 11 Oct meeting

  Kavouss Arasteh: (08:35) If everybody share the same views ss yours I follow the majority

  David McAuley: (08:38) I support one report but also feel governing law should not be part of it – existentially not sure if I am a rabbit or turtle

  Thiago Jardim: (08:40) Fair enough, important issues will be left out and we may not bne in a position to support the final product, and we'll have to dissociate ourselves from it, in order to show that the jurisdictional problem remains for the most part unsolved.

  Thiago Jardim: (08:47) It's not related to what you mentioned here, but I'd ask the deletion of the first 6 words of the first paragraph, including its footnote.

  Thiago Jardim: (08:49) There is no need to restate the document that is referred to in footnote one, nor is it necessary for the purpose of this recommendation for any of us to venture into an interpretation about the mandate of the subgroup in relation to matters that go beyond the recommendation at hand

  Thiago Jardim: (08:49) Further, if the subgroup submits this recommendation, it stands to reason that this is within the mandate of the subgroup.

  David McAuley: (08:51) I agree to delete first six words - do not see this effort as aimed at ICANN's overall accountability

  David McAuley: (08:52) yes

  Thiago Jardim: (08:53) Cheers David

  Kavouss Arasteh: (08:53)   Thiago +1

  Thiago Jardim: (08:53) I'd appreciate if you could do so.

  Philip Corwin: (08:59) Regrets, must depart for GDPR webinar/bye all

  Wale Bakare 2: (09:01) I agree with Kavouss

  David McAuley: (09:01) no offense Kavouss, my friend

  Thiago Jardim: (09:01) +1, Kavouss

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:03) Time check - 27 minutes left in call

  Wale Bakare 2: (09:03) Unfortunately, i need to switch to GDPR webinar now, bye.

  David McAuley: (09:04) There will be future round of gTLDs though possibly, with new regsitries and possibly new registrars

  Thiago Jardim: (09:04) I don't think there is sufficient support for David's suggestion.

  David McAuley: (09:05) no surprise there with that check

  David McAuley: (09:10) Someone just came by and asked me something - sorry I am l;ost as to where we are now

  David McAuley: (09:10) thanks Greg

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:14) Time check 15 minutes left in call

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:20) time check 10 minutes left in call

  David McAuley: (09:20) The joys of the MS way

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:22) Please mute if not speaking

  Thiago Jardim: (09:24) Discussions on the list is needed, certainly.

  Thiago Jardim: (09:24) are*

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:26) yes

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:26) OFAC

  David McAuley: (09:27) Some full report, but not fulsome report

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:31) canadian thnaksgiving on Monday!

  David McAuley: (09:32) Happy holidays Bernie

  Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (09:32) bye all

  Herb Waye Ombuds: (09:32) Thank you from Canada... best regards all.

  David McAuley: (09:32) Thanks Greg, staff, and all

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (09:32) Thx all! Bye!