Sub-group Members: Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Christpher Wilkinson, David McAuley, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Jeff Neuman, Kavouss Arasteh, Milton Mueller, Phil Marano, Philip Corwin, Thiago Jardim (14)
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer
Apologies: Herb Waye
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to firstname.lastname@example.org **
2. Review of Agenda (2 minutes)
3. Administration (1 minute)
3.1. Changes to SOIs
3.2. Identify Audio Only and Phone Number Participants
4. Review of decisions and action items from last call (2 minutes)
4.1.1. Will begin formal discussion of the issues list on the next call.
4.1.2. Request ICANN Legal to present on OFAC and the fact that there is no jurisdiction in the Registry or Registrar contracts.
4.2. Action Items:
4.2.1. GS – to send email to questionnaire respondents.
4.2.2. GS – To request ICANN Legal to present on OFAC and the fact that there is no choice of jurisdiction (i.e., choice of law or venue) in the Registry or Registrar contracts.
4.3.1. (renewed) Participants asked to include any issues they have on the List of Proposed prior to the July 26 call. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zAMj3Oz8TEqbjauOyqt09Ef-1ada9TrC7i60Mk-7al4/edit#gid=0
5. Subgroup Timeline (10 minutes)
5.1. Review of Schedule for WS2
5.2. Review of Subgroup Timeline
6. Review and discussion of the List of Proposed Issues for Jurisdiction Subgroup Consideration (30 minutes)
6.1. Begin substantive discussion of issues
6.2. List is at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zAMj3Oz8TEqbjauOyqt09Ef-1ada9TrC7i60Mk-7al4/edit#gid=0
7. Review of ICANN Litigation (10 Minutes)
7.1. Review of Status and Progress: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oo9oDJuuxFz1UUNaBfHeor7HPhJ5XcRHFTq3hjRltOM/edit?usp=sharing
7.1.1. Outstanding reviews to be presented to Subgroup
7.1.2. Status of outstanding litigations to be analyzed
7.2. Presentation of completed reviews (if any)
8. Questionnaire Responses (10 minutes)
8.1. Review of Status and Progress
8.1.1. Status of Outstanding Questionnaire Responses to be analyzed
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
Brenda Brewer: (7/26/2017 13:27) Hello! Welcome to WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #39 on 26 July 2017 @ 19:00 UTC!
Brenda Brewer: (13:27) If you are not speaking, please mute your phone by pressing *6 (star 6). This call is recorded.
Brenda Brewer: (13:28) Reminder to all, please speak slowly and state your name before speaking for the Captioner. Thank you!
Arasteh Kavouss: (13:45) Dear Brenda
Arasteh Kavouss: (13:45) Hi Brenda
Brenda Brewer: (13:45) Hello Kavouss!
Arasteh Kavouss: (13:46) I am in Geneva for call
Brenda Brewer: (13:46) so, your usual number then?
Bonnie-CART: (13:48) Hi, Brenda! Can you please tell me who the Rapporteur will be for this meeting?
Brenda Brewer: (13:48) Greg Shatan is Rapporteur today.
Bonnie-CART: (13:48) Thank you very much!
Brenda Brewer: (13:55) Kavouss, calling you now, no answer.
Greg Shatan: (13:59) Hello, all.
David McAuley: (13:59) dialing in
David McAuley: (14:01) I am #4154
Brenda Brewer: (14:01) Thank you, David.
Milton Mueller: (14:01) sounds good
Brenda Brewer: (14:01) Kavouss, dial out to you was no successful. Please reply.
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:06) Brenda
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:06) I am in Gene ga,
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:06) WAITING to be calléed
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:07) Pls advise to dial me up
Brenda Brewer: (14:07) I have called Geneva twice, Kavouss.
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:07) GS
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:07) I am here in Genecva
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:07) Pls adviase to be dialed
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:07) hand
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:08) Bernie
Milton Mueller: (14:08) great thanks, Bernie
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:08) Pls note that I am waiting here to be called
Milton Mueller: (14:08) I have not lost interest in this group
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:09) Yes but pls advise to dil me up
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:09) I am anot connected why?
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:09) We are trying Kavouss
Farzaneh Badii: (14:09) is the phone plugged in?
Brenda Brewer: (14:10) Kavouss, please see private chat from me...
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:10) PLEASE dial me up
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:10) tks
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:10) @David is in the Action item
David McAuley: (14:11) sorry - i missed that then
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:11) But let u s remember that ICANN have written to us on this in the past if I remember correctly
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:11) gREG
Thiago Jardim: (14:11) Bernard, can you provide us a link for that ?
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:11) bRENDA
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:12) Please kindly advise what is going obn
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:12) @Thiago will do after this call
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:12) bRNIE
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:12) @Kavouss yes
Thiago Jardim: (14:12) Thanks,
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:12) 0041 79 32xx xxxx
Milton Mueller: (14:13) ok let's move on
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:13) 20 MINTS ago I informed you that I am in Geneva ,usual nNumber
Milton Mueller: (14:13) didn't we already discuss this?
Brenda Brewer: (14:13) This is the number I am dialing, Kavouss. I am sorry, that you are unable to connect. I have dialed your number three times.
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:13) Why
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:15) PLS DIAL 0041 22 73xxxx
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:15) @Kavovuss - I have just tried that number and I get an error message in German
Milton Mueller: (14:16) We can ask them whatever we want
Farzaneh Badii: (14:16) do we have to submit questions or will we invite them to attend the meeting
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:17) @Farzaneh - looking to have them atttend a meeting in person to answer questions
David McAuley: (14:17) agree w Greg that we should identify questions beforehand, to some extent at least
Milton Mueller: (14:17) May I remind the chair that he scheduled 2 minutes for this agenda item and we are now on minute 10
Thiago Jardim: (14:18) ok
Thiago Jardim: (14:18) thanks
David McAuley: (14:19) yes
Milton Mueller: (14:19) yes
Milton Mueller: (14:19) Really?
Milton Mueller: (14:19) We are NOT discussing OFAC, we are discussing the simple matter of inviting ICANN to discuss it
Milton Mueller: (14:21) That is what will happen when we get ICANN into the meeting to discuss OFAC
Milton Mueller: (14:21) Ask your questions then, Kavouss
David McAuley: (14:22) agree w/Greg - first let's hear ICANN
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:23) dEAR Professor,
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:23) Good Afternoon or good evening
David McAuley: (14:23) another great graphic Bernie
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:24) May you kindly be patient and allow those people who are victim of OFAC
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:24) to ask questions
David McAuley: (14:25) 2 comment periods look impossible for sure
David McAuley: (14:25) considering where we are now
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:25) David ,
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:25) Let us not to hurry
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:25) I repeta what
Milton Mueller: (14:26) Look at the agenda. If we waste time talking about the agenda, we will not have time to discuss the list of proposed issues, which includes OFAC. This subgroup repeatedly spends all its time on administrivia and that makes it difficult to discuss substantive issues
Brenda Brewer: (14:26) Kavouss, muted your line as typing was being heard. Thank you.
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:27) ok
David McAuley: (14:27) agree w/Bernie - June 2018 is a hard deadline
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:29) I repeat, ICANN is kindly requested to provide full description of the OFAC who it has implemented ? WHAT WAS INSTRUCTION FROM ntia, What was the reply from
avri doria: (14:29) ok, just checking to make sure that was not a Organization decsion
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:30) NTIA wHAT WAS THE REACTION OF icanb to that
avri doria: (14:30) NTIA is not part of the decsion making any longer at this point
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:30) @Avri - no WS2 decision but WS2 has commited to completing by the end of June 2018 and the realities of how long things take are simply being presented here for your information
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:30) what was the difficulties that ICANN faced in implementing that
avri doria: (14:31) Bernie, becomes worrisome when it starts to sound like issue not solved by then are no longer part of the problem set.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:31) Time check - 30 Minutes left in call
Milton Mueller: (14:31) agree with Avri
Milton Mueller: (14:32) These are great questions you can ask ICANN when they are actually on the call, Kavouss
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:34) tHANK YOU milton,
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:35) @ Avri - if things cannot be completed in WS2 the confirmations from several SOACs for the extension for WS2 to then end of June 2018 stated that they would not support any further extensdions. If this is the case other mechanisms would have to be identified to address any remaining questions.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:36) Kavouss first
Philip Corwin: (14:37) ICANN is a US corporation and as such, and given their excellent inside and outside counsel, they would be aware that OFAC regulations prohibit entering into contracts with entities on the OFAC list unless a waiver is first requested and obtained. I don't think the USG goes around telling companies that they should comply with this or that law. But let's see what ICANN says.
Thiago Jardim: (14:37) US courts decide that.
Milton Mueller: (14:37) This is not the issue we are discussing now, Kavouss
Milton Mueller: (14:37) Let us focus on the Governing law for registry agreements
Milton Mueller: (14:38) IGP has added the ccTLD issue to the list of propoed issues - we can discuss it when we get to it
Jeff Neuman: (14:38) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_application-2D2012-2D02-2D25-2Den&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=8IhBRVPErXyFCabvfIc3l9h-e0nmmKqcGoU7zOJpeII&s=aYxOSJU8qPDY7bYCcNCvY6AemS2ttazhj8yziVbIISA&e= , Terms and Conditions Section 4 deals with OFAC
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:39) Jeff with the comma the link is broken
Jeff Neuman: (14:39) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_application-2D2012-2D02-2D25-2Den&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=8IhBRVPErXyFCabvfIc3l9h-e0nmmKqcGoU7zOJpeII&s=aYxOSJU8qPDY7bYCcNCvY6AemS2ttazhj8yziVbIISA&e=
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:40) Why there is no a governing law in the regoistry conteract
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:40) IF there is no arrangement we need to address that
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:42) Grec , lack law in the Registry Contract is an important issue which must be addressed
David McAuley 2: (14:42) i had to re-enter adobe, was thrown out
David McAuley 2: (14:43) Thanks for link, Jeff
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:45) Time Check - 15 minutes left in call
Milton Mueller: (14:45) That is interesting, Jeff - but if no choice of law is specified, how are disputes resolveD?
Jeff Neuman: (14:45) See Section 5.9 here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_unthemed-2Dpages_registry-2Dagmt-2D2001-2D05-2D11-2Den&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=8IhBRVPErXyFCabvfIc3l9h-e0nmmKqcGoU7zOJpeII&s=3We-EKIQWduEBx-D7WRpNBTDklZu2VbgY2b-5GymNSM&e=
David McAuley 2: (14:46) I did hear Greg, but thrown out again - however I remain on phone
Jeff Neuman: (14:47) Way back in 2001
David McAuley 2: (14:47) parties argue about which law applies (if they don't agree) and judge makes decision
Milton Mueller: (14:47) thx David
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:47) Why they were removed?who removed them?
Milton Mueller: (14:48) which judge?
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:48) When they were removed?
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:48) Judge?
Milton Mueller: (14:48) Jeff, David, MM
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:48) Jeff, David, Milton
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:49) WHICH jUDGE? thERE HAVE BEEN CONTRADICTORY DECISION OF jUDGE ONE OVER RIDING THE OTHERS
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:50) sECRETARIAT,
Greg Shatan: (14:50) Kavouss, I believe it was ICANN's decision. No courts involved.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:51) Greg next is Thiago
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:51) Icann must have rational to make a decision.
Jeff Neuman: (14:52) In 2006, it also appeared in the .biz agreement: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_unthemed-2Dpages_registry-2Dagmt-2D2010-2D04-2D27-2Den&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=8IhBRVPErXyFCabvfIc3l9h-e0nmmKqcGoU7zOJpeII&s=L1r0tCU1VdeDu1fzGZwk8zPjLxKLcI6evcwKBcECGmo&e=
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:52) Secretariat, I appologize typing in upper case, pls kindly convert them in lower case
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:52) Tks
Jeff Neuman: (14:52) Section 5.1(b)
Thiago Jardim: (14:53) Support conditional on that issue being dealt with last
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:53) indeed we do...
Jeff Neuman: (14:55) Actually, the legacy agreements (some of them) still have jurisdiction and venue in Los Angeles: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_unthemed-2Dpages_biz-2Dagmt-2Dhtml-2D2013-2D09-2D13-2Den&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=8IhBRVPErXyFCabvfIc3l9h-e0nmmKqcGoU7zOJpeII&s=3w_zBst5JecREuruft8mrlGqYMSmLpUNKEN-7XTSUnQ&e=
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:55) Before deciding on an eventual Recommendation, we need to debate the issues first
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:55) Grec,
Milton Mueller: (14:58) :-)
Thiago Jardim: (14:58) Agree, Milton. Excellent.
Arasteh Kavouss: (14:58) we can not discuss OFAC before getting the history of it
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:00) time check 1 minute left in call
Arasteh Kavouss: (15:01) We ask ICANN not OFAC
Jeff Neuman: (15:01) On the governing law question, I am confused. Are we talking about jurisdiction, choice of law or venue? Or all 3?
Thiago Jardim: (15:02) Next time try and start in time
Thiago Jardim: (15:02) just that. we lose everytime about 3 to 4 min
Thiago Jardim: (15:02) at the start.
Milton Mueller: (15:02) right
David McAuley 2: (15:02) we should all assemble at the time then
David McAuley 2: (15:03) good points
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:03) bye for now then... Thanks everyone
Jeff Neuman: (15:03) ok, some agreements have venue provisions but not choice of law
David McAuley 2: (15:04) Thanks all, good bye
avri doria: (15:04) bye
Jeff Neuman: (15:04) ICANN is not in a position to give a history of OFAC since that was created by the US Department of Treasury
Thiago Jardim: (15:05) Let's discuss that next time
Thiago Jardim: (15:05) Bye
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:05) bye
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:05) bye all
Bonnie-CART: (15:05) Thank you!