Sub-group Members: Alain Bidron, Anne Rachel-Inne, Avri Doria, Beran Gillen, Carolina Aguerre, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Dalila Rahmouni, Finn Petersen, Fiona Asonga, Jorge Cancio, Laena Rahim, Lousewies van Der Laan, Mark Carvell, Mathieu Weill, Olivier Muron, Rachel Pollack, Rafik Dammak, Sebastien Bachollet. (19)
Observers: Taylor RW Bentley.
Staff: Brenda Brewer, Bernard Turcotte, Karen Mulberry, Laena Rahim, Larisa Gurnick, Lars Hoffman, Meghan Healy, Yvette Guigneaux.
Apologies:
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://participate.icann.org/p4q5909x0me/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/accountability/ccwg-accountability-diversity-subgroup-21oct16-en.mp3
1. Introductions
2. Review of previous meeting action items
3. Strawman document discussion:
• a. presentation AFNIC study & datasets by Mathieu
• b. Going through the comments and questions
4. Hyderabad Planning: status report for CCWG meeting
5. AOB (5min)
Diversity Subgroup | Meeting #4 | 21 October 2016 @ 13:00 UTC
Notes (including relevant parts of chat):
20 participants at start of call
_______________________________________
1. Introductions
Rafik Dmmak: nothing of note
2. Review of previous meeting action items
Fiona Asonga: just participation on list vs draft document.
3. Strawman document discussion:
a. presentation AFNIC study & datasets by Mathieu Weill
Mathieu Weill: I am here as a participant only. The strawman included many of the elements we shared in Helsinki. https://www.afnic.fr/medias/documents/Dossiers_pour_actualites/2016_Icann_Diversity_Data.pdf
Mathieu Weill: diversity can be difficult. Collecting data and validating it can be tricky. Regional diversity do we consider country of birth, just residency, citizenship? Languages has a variety of criteria. A second dimension which is important is the categories between the dimension eg for age if you simply consider above or below 25 it will limit the usefulness of the data. The third area Scope, only Board members does not represent the entire ICANN diversity. On the other hand, all participants may be too big and you lose the bias. After ICANN 56 I found interesting statistics vs diversity of ICANN staff and policy participants.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Do we know if there is any international standard for such diversity rules?
Dalia Rahmouni: we can use the experience of other institutions?
Rafik: yes, Dalila and it will be great to bring some concrete examples
Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: Important to keep it simple
Lousewies van Der Laan: We are trying to make a differentiation between ICANN the community, ICANN the company (staff) and the Board. So we could make it clear that we cover everything.
Sebastien Bachollet: Agree with LVDL - when we use ICANN I struggle with what we mean - for me if we use ICANN then it is everything if we want to specify we do so by ICANN Board of ICANN Staff.
Fiona Asonga: That's so true Sébastien
Dalia Rahmouni: Exactly Sebastien
Dalia Rahmouni: For gender for example, UN Women implement very interesting actions.
Avri Doria: I agree with Sebastíen on the definition. does our current CEO believe there is just one ICANN?
Fiona Asonga: Good question Avri
Avri Doria: I have not seen the evidence of that yet.
Avri Doria: does our Board believe that?
Lousewies van Der Laan: it's the opposite: Goran is trying, with support of the board, to cut through the confusion, by differentiating between ICANN org and ICANN community
Avri Doria: so the CEO and Board see the various ICANN as different and not part of the same thing?
Lousewies van Der Laan: The name ICANN covers the Community and the organisation (staff, board)
Avri Doria: I guess in this group then we need for both to be diverse. or are we saying icann.org is none of ICANN community's business?
Lousewies van Der Laan: it's important to know what we mean and it's totally everyone's business imo. yes, I think both need to be diverse and inclusive
Avri Doria: I can understand 3 interconnected bubbles with one organization, but cannot accept that they are not very interconnected and part of a single entity.
Rachel Pollack: Could we say something like "all levels within ICANN, throughout the organization, community and Board"
Lousewies van Der Laan: sounds clear Rachel
Fiona Asonga: Good suggestion Racheal makes it very clear
Sebastien (ALAC): Sorry but icann.org is all - staff / Board / community -
Rachel Pollack: In the phrase I suggested, we could replace "organization" with "staff"
Raffik Dammak: The document does this but probably not enough. MW the study was mostly about leadership roles - on data collection this information is self declared and agree there is no clear definitions like citizenship and residency - how do you handle.
Mathieu Weill: you are correct and there is some flexibility. These are choices when you collect the data. This data should be collected on a regular basis and this has a cost. Currently the systems that collect this information in ICANN are very distributed and not checked for consistency and validity and as such I would expect there would have to be significant investment to allow ICANN to post anything really valid for the community.
Raffik Dammak: agree. MW any suggestions for us on this topic?
Mathieu Weill: Once you have decided what you are looking for then it can be easily expanded and can use the existing registration systems - not trivial but it would be useful - should also consider how this data set can be shared transparently.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): some info about EU initiatives: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/discrimination/diversity/charters/index_en.htm
Avri Doria: Lousewies, would that that was the case!
Lousewies van Der Laan: Goran is trying to make us use organisation instead of staff, but if the community has a problem with that we will have to think of clear words
Sebastien Bachollet: Re onging discussion re what is ICANN - we cannot consider staff the organization. Re MS having a way to gather information - when anyone starts to participate they should fill out a SOI and we should include asking all the diversity info we need. Also on ICANN.ORG when registering your profile and we could collect information there.
Lousewies van Der Laan: just let me know how I can help Avri
Avri Doria: I agree that organization is all. to say that only the staff is the organizzation is exclusionary, at least sounding.
Carolina Aguerre: +1 avri
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: we are trying to do the opposite
Fiona Asonga: I have previously understood organization to be all: staff, community and board
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: be clear and inclusive
Avri Doria: have we done a diversity picture of the staff?
Mathieu Weill: @Avri: Icann HR has some stats
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: I'll flag the concerns to the board and I agree that any change in definition has to be community driven/supported
Dalia Rahmouni: The statement of interest can be an efficient way to collect the information
Avri Doria: I sometimes wonder whether diversity stats should be done on two levels, both citizenship and residence.
Avri Doria: both affect POV
Rachel Pollack: I agree with Avri it would be important to include both citizenship and residence
Avri Doria: at the same time
Larisa Gurnick: @avri - ATRT2 gathered some data about staff diversity - i will post the link shortlyl.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): more from the EU: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/discrimination/document/index_en.htm#Business_Case_Diversity
Avri Doria: the board is both of the community and servant of the community.
Lousewies van Der Laan: SB makes a good point. The Board is not trying to redline anything - but then we have noted that a number of words are used interchangeably - but this does not help accountability. Redefining the terms should be left in each group as in this one.
Carolina Aguerre: I certainly agree with Sebastien's categorization. Traditional authors in the organizational science world raise similar dimensions (eg: Henry Mintzberg).
Avri Doria: and staff members are both employees and members of the community or a different sort.
Rachel Pollack: I think gathering data through existing registration and statement of interests could be efficient. are there aspects of diversity that we would be considered sensitive to collect or publicly display?
Avri Doria: ... of a different sort.
Avri Doria: well if we want to measure diversity of various components, it is important to understand what we are talking about.
Lousewies van Der Laan: and to confuse things some people may hold a passport of a country they have never lived in and may culturally and linguistically be a diversity asset without having either the passport or residence
Raffik Dammak: thanks to MW for the presentation.
Larisa Gurnick: ATRT2 Final Report https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-recommendations-31dec13-en.pdf, p 53/277 has data about languages spoken by icann staff
Avri Doria: that is skill set diversity
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: yes
Carolina Aguerre: yes
b. Going through the comments and questions
Dalia Rahmouni: add para to state why diversity is important.those organizations that have better discussions and legitimacy.
Rachel Pollack: I like adding the title. Could we say simply "Strengthening ICANN through diversity", since we are saying that it in fact leads to richer discussions, more effective policy, etc. and not only legitimacy?
Raffik Dammk: Support for the suggestion of DR?
Dalia Rahmouni: yes good title Rachel
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): I feel there is indeed a link
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: good suggestion - it's always good to remind people why diversity is an asset
Fiona Asonga: Uncertain about using the term Legitimacy - would this be politically correct?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): diversity is key to global accountability and therefore to legitimacy...
Sebatien Bachollet: the CCWG is about Accountability and we should stick to that. Being more diverse will make ICANN more accountable and automatically increase legitimacy.
Lousewies van Der Laan:Strengthening ICANN through diversity or Strengthening ICANN Accountability through diversity.
Mathieu Weill: the advisors we used for the AFNIC study could be useful to this group.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr: based on this call it sounds like we can accept many changes to the document.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): The new Bylaws also make a key link between diversity and the global public interest - probably useful to stress in the titles
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): finish most of thee points in this calll
Carolina Aguerre: This was more than addressed before ;)
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: +1 Jorge
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): agreed
Rachel Pollack: Diversity within ICANN refers to the ability of ICANN to facilitate variations in different aspects of stakeholder representation and engagement at all levels within ICANN, throughout the staff, community and Board
Lousewies van Der Laan: inclusion is critical - this should never be just a Box Ticking exercise.
Rachel Pollack: + 1 on adding the concept of inclusion
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): so true!
Carolina Aguerre: I totally agree with this suggestion on inclusion
Avri Doria: well feeling your opinion is not valued may cross all diversity lines at ICANN.
Raffik Dammak: would ask everyone to continue contributing to the document using Comments. Adjourned.
Documents Presented
WS2 Diversity- Strawman V1-DRI.pdf
Yvette Guigneaux: Welcome to the Diversity Subgroup | Meeting #4_ 21 October 2016 @ 13: 00 UTC!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): good afternoon!
avri doria: i really hate the symbolism of the new AC system having tuend us all into guests in our own meetings.
Mathieu Weill: Hello
Yvette Guigneaux: Good day everyone - if you find your phone on mute it is only to keep disturbing noise out of the Adobe room
RAHMOUNI Dalila: Helllo
Lousewies van der Laan: not hearing anything
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): ARE WE STARTING???/
Yvette Guigneaux: Rapporteurs - feel free to go ahead and begin speaking to start the meeting
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): Hi
Lousewies van der Laan: hi all
Yvette Guigneaux: You can all now scroll through the document if you'd like
FIONA ASONGA 2: Can hear you?
Yvette Guigneaux: We hear you Mathieu
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): he's got his french beret on...
Rafik: vive la france , vive la diversite
Yvette Guigneaux: The 202 and 331#'s if you can see the chat, would you kindly identify yourself for the record?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Do we know if there is any international standard for such diversity rules?
RAHMOUNI Dalila: we can use the experience of other institutions ?
Rafik: yes Dalila and it will be great to bring some concrete examples
Finn Petersen, GAC - DK: Importent to keep it simple
Yvette Guigneaux: Mathieu - you can now move slides if you need to for the strawman doc
RAHMOUNI Dalila: For gender for example, UN Women implement very interesting actions.
FIONA ASONGA 2: That's so true Sabastein
Rafik: @Dalila any link?
RAHMOUNI Dalila: Exactly Sebastien
avri doria: i agree with Sebastíen on the defintion. does our current CEO believe there is just one ICANN.
FIONA ASONGA 2: Good question Avri
avri doria: i have not seen the evidence of that yet.
avri doria: does our Board beleive that?
Lousewies van Der Laan: it's the opposite: Goran I trying, with support of the board, to cut through the confusion, by differentiation between ICANN org and ICANN community
avri doria: so the CEO and Board see the various ICANN as different and not part of the same thing?
Lousewies van Der Laan: The name ICANN covers the Community and the organisation (Staal,
Lousewies van Der Laan: staff, board)
avri doria: i guess in this group then we need for both to be diverse. or are we saying icann.org is non f icann.community's business?
Lousewies van Der Laan: it's important to know what we mean
Lousewies van Der Laan: it's totally everyone's business imo
Lousewies van Der Laan: yes, I think both need to be diverse and inclusive
avri doria: i can understand 3 interconnected bubble with one organization, but cannot accept that they are not very interconnected and part of a single entity.
Rachel Pollack: Could we say something like "all levels within ICANN, throughout the organization, community and Board"
Lousewies van Der Laan: sounds clear Rachel
FIONA ASONGA 2: Good suggestion Racheal makes it very clear
Sebastien (ALAC): Sorry but icann.org is all - staff / Board / community -
Sebastien (ALAC): all level of the organization (including staff/Board/community)
Rachel Pollack: In the phrase I suggested, we could replace "organization" with "staff"
Rachel Pollack: sure
avri doria: for sure the community is but a ghost.
Lousewies van Der Laan: they are totally interconnected , but the staff and board serve the community, not the other way around
Sebastien (ALAC): You Rafik
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): some info about EU initiatives: https: //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ec.europa.eu_justice_discrimination_diversity_charters_index-5Fen.htm&d=DQIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=lNJHyc4dMC-nr7moSAqs8s-En7RALPo9_O1NuqMeT90&s=Cw-tPrAIXt2puIqVGYrgzENvj4cpiLO7gyn9wU3w_hs&e=
avri doria: Lousewies, would that that was the case!
Lousewies van Der Laan: Goran is trying to make us use organisation instead of staff, but if the community has a problem with that we will have to think of clear words
Lousewies van Der Laan: just let me know how I can help Avri
avri doria: i agree that organization is all. to say that only the staff is the organizzation is exclusionary, at least sounding.
Carolina Aguerre: +1 avri
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: we are trying to do the opposite
FIONA ASONGA 2: I have previously understood organization to be all: staff, community and board
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: be clear and inclusive
avri doria: have we done a diversity picture of the staff?
Mathieu Weill: @Avri: Icann HR has some stats
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: I'll flag the concerns to the board and I agree that any change in definition has to be community driven/supported
RAHMOUNI Dalila: The statement of interest can be an efficient way to collect the information
avri doria: i sometime wonder wherrhter diversity stats should be done on two levels, both citizenship and residence.
avri doria: both affect POV
Rachel Pollack: I agree with Avri it would be important to include both citizenship and residence
avri doria: at the same time
Larisa Gurnick: @avri - ATRT2 gathered some data about staff diversity - i will post the link shortlyl.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): more from the EU: https: //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ec.europa.eu_justice_discrimination_document_index-5Fen.htm-23Business-5FCase-5FDiversity&d=DQIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=lNJHyc4dMC-nr7moSAqs8s-En7RALPo9_O1NuqMeT90&s=yYK_wFYveTixoJMOT_N5XAoODYuQtGHcoIDJOW1gl-U&e=
avri doria: the board is both of the community and servant of the community.
Carolina Aguerre: I certainly agree with Sebastien's categorization. Traditonal authors in the organizational science world raise similar dimensions (eg: Henry MIntzberg).
avri doria: and staff mebers are both employees and members of the community or a different sort.
Rachel Pollack: I think gathering data through existing registration and statement of interests could be efficient. are there aspects of diversity that we would be considered sensitive to collect or publicly display?
avri doria: ... of a different sort.
avri doria: well if we want to measure diversity of various compnents, it is importn to understand what we are talking about.
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: and to confuse things some people may hold a passport of a country they have never lived in and may culturally and linguistically be a diversity asset without having either the passport or residence
Mathieu Weill: Thanks Rafik, hope that is going to be helpful
Rachel Pollack: very helpful presentation, mathieu. merci !
Larisa Gurnick: ATRT2 Final Report https: //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_en_system_files_files_final-2Drecommendations-2D31dec13-2Den.pdf&d=DQIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=lNJHyc4dMC-nr7moSAqs8s-En7RALPo9_O1NuqMeT90&s=wPqg0SIW9TZ1nWwPAL9uYIG1Afw9TkP15a9UTXUuxZE&e= , p 53/277 has data about languages spoken by icann staff
avri doria: that is skill set diversity
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: merci Mathieu
RAHMOUNI Dalila: merci Mathieu
RAHMOUNI Dalila: yes
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: good one Avri
Rachel Pollack: I like adding the title. Could we say simply "Strengthening ICANN through diversity", since we are saying that it in fact leads to richer discussions, more effective policy, etc. and not only legitimacy?
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: yes
Carolina Aguerre: yes
RAHMOUNI Dalila: yes googd title Rachel
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): I feel there is indeed a link
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: good suggestion - it's always good to remind people why diversity is an asset
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): diversity is key to global accountability and therefore to legitimacy...
FIONA ASONGA 2: I am more comforatble with Strenthening ICANN Accounatbility through Diversity
Rachel Pollack: How about having simply "Strengthening ICANN through diversity", followed by the the list of the five points given?
Mathieu Weill: This list of benefits came from several "advisers" BTW. And I think that is absolutely key to highlight
FIONA ASONGA 2: +1 Racheal
Yvette Guigneaux: Hi All - Time check - 15 minute warning
Sebastien (ALAC): I suggest the following tittle
Sebastien (ALAC): Enhancing diversity to strengthen ICANN accountability
Carolina Aguerre: Good suggestion Sebastien
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: +1
Rachel Pollack: no, I made the point in the chat
Rachel Pollack: sounds good to me, as this subgroup is part of the ccwg-accountability
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): The new Bylaws also make a key link between diversity and the global public interest - probably useful to stress in the titles
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): ho[it to finish most of thee points in this calll
Carolina Aguerre: This was more than addressed before ;)
Lousewies van Der Laan 2: +1 Jorge
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): ahreed
Rachel Pollack: Diversity within ICANN refers to the ability of ICANN to facilitate variations in different aspects of stakeholder representation and engagement at all levels within ICANN, throughout the staff, community and Board
Rachel Pollack: + 1 on adding the concept of inclusion
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): so true!
Carolina Aguerre: I totally agree with this suggestion on inclusion
avri doria: well feelng your opinion is not valued may cross all diversity lines at icann.
Yvette Guigneaux: Time check - 5 min warning to the top of hour
FIONA ASONGA 2: Am back
BERNARD TURCOTTE: All please note that there will be a CCWG plenary Tuesday next week
BERNARD TURCOTTE: 1300 UTC
Yvette Guigneaux: Ok Fiona - I did let them know we were getting your audio back - so feel free to let Rafik know you would like to speak
BERNARD TURCOTTE: iT CAN BE FOR MONDAY
BERNARD TURCOTTE: ;-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): all goodfrom me
avri doria: was origninall told end of business today (soroprate headquarters time), now we hear it is logical friday. hurah.
avri doria: ... ( corporate headquarters time)
Carolina Aguerre: Thanks!! Have a great weekend.
BERNARD TURCOTTE: BYE ALL
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): bye all...
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Thank you so much all, especially Fiona and Rafik, for taking this good work forward!
RAHMOUNI Dalila: thank you!
avri doria: bye
Rachel Pollack: thanks, rafik and fiona!
Rachel Pollack: bon week-end à tous : )
FIONA ASONGA 2: Thanks all