Members: Andreea Todoran, Athina Fragkouli, Becky Burr, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Finn Petersen, Fiona Asonga, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julie Hammer, Kavouss Arasteh, Mathieu Weill, Olga Cavalli, Pedro da Silva, Robin Gross, Samantha Eisner, Sebastien Bachollet, Steve Delbianco, Tijani Ben Jemaa (18)
Participants: Aarti Bhavana, Alain Bidron, Alberto Soto, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Brett Schaefer, Chris LaHatte, Chris Wilson, Daniel Appelman, David Maher, Mavid McAuley, Edward Morris, Farzaneh Badii, Ghislain DeSalins, Greg Shatan, Guru Acharya, Isabel Rutherfurd, John Curran, Julf Helsingius, Keith Drazek, Klaus Stoll, Lito Ibarra, Matthew Shears, Michael Karnanicolas, Niels ten Oever, Pär Brumark, Phil Buckingham, Philip Corwin, Rudi Daniel, Sabine Meyer, Siva Muthusamy, Sonigitu Ekpe, Stephen Deerhake, Tatiana Tropina, Tom Dale (35)
Legal Counsel: Holly Gregory, Nancy McGlamery, Rosemary Fei (3)
Observers & Guests: Chris Hemmerlein, Elizabeth Andrews, Erin Dorgan, Phil Morano, Ryan Carroll, Taylor RW Bentley
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Grace Abuhamad, Karen Mulberry, Marika Konings, Nigel Hickson, Theresa Swinehart, Trang Nguyen, Yuko Green
Apologies: Lori Schulman, Jimson Olufuye, Leon Sanchez, Thomas Rickert, Vinay Kesari
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
1. Welcome, SOI
2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission
3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps
4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion
Mathieu Weill only co-chair in attendance
WS2 - presentation of slides
Legal Cost Control Mechanisms - presentation of slides.
Meeting Adjourned – Mathieu Weill
Brenda Brewer: (7/12/2016 14:41) Welcome all to the CCWG ACCT WS2 Meeting #2 on 12 July @ 20:00 UTC!
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:55) Hi Brenda
Kavouss Arasteh: (14:55) Hi all
FIONA ASONGA (ASO): (14:56) Hallo All
Julf Helsingius: (14:56) Hi
Rudi Daniel: (14:56) Hi to All
Sabine Meyer: (14:57) hello everyone
Becky Burr: (14:57) hello all - just in adobe room but not on audio for a bit
Edward Morris: (14:57) Hi everybody.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:58) Hello everyone
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (14:58) Greetings from foggy San Francisco!
Sonigitu Ekpe: (14:58) Good evening everyone from Calabar, Nigeria.
Sabine Meyer: (14:59) Well if Mathieu leaves blue unclaimed...
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (14:59) Hello everyone!
David McAuley (RySG): (14:59) Hello all
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (14:59) Blue is yours Sabine
SivasubramanianM: (14:59) Hello All
Rosemary Fei, Alder Colvin: (15:00) Hello, everyone.
Sabine Meyer: (15:00) Merci beacoup Mathieu!
Sabine Meyer: (15:00) *beaucoup
Niels ten Oever: (15:00) Hi all
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:00) hi all
Tatiana Tropina: (15:01) hello everyone!
Tom Dale (ACIG GAC Secretariat): (15:01) Hello everyone
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (15:02) @Mathieu: "Allez les Bleus" :-(
Sabine Meyer: (15:02) Too. Soon.
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:02) ho
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:03) There is high level echo
David McAuley (RySG): (15:03) No echo here Kavouss
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:03) Can echo be removed
Tatiana Tropina: (15:03) No echo for me, the sound is clear.
nigel hickson: (15:03) good afternoon
Athina Fragkouli (ASO): (15:04) hello all!
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:04) Dear all,
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:04) There is a high level of ECHO
jorge villa (aso: (15:05) Hi Athina, hello everyone
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:05) good old Mathieu, thank you for chairing on your own
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:05) hi everyone
Julf Helsingius: (15:05) no echo here
Farzaneh Badii: (15:05) Kavouss it must be your end. we are not getting any.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:05) Now there is echo
Stephen Deerhake (.as): (15:05) Now I'm getting the echo...
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:05) oh wow, just got that echo
Sabine Meyer: (15:05) Jordan, that sounds almost like a Robyn cover
Daniel Appelman: (15:05) I'm attending
Sabine Meyer: (15:05) (not the echo, the "just chairing on my own" bit)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:06) ALAC had previously RE-Confirmed its 5 Members from WS! as Continuing as Members for WS2 Mathieu... That was some time ago though ;-)
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:06) Echo was not emanated from my side
Brett Schaefer: (15:09) I thought Greg's suggested text is much clearer: Such global public interest may be determined from time to time. Any determination of such global public interest shall be made by the multistakeholder community through an inclusive bottom-up multistakeholder community process.
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:09) Since the term " from time to time " is used , the term may is the appropriate one
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:09) I agree, Brett.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:10) the meanings are the ame
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:10) *same
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:10) I don't mind which text we land with, aside from a general bias towards brevity
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:12) I prefer to be clear about what we mean and not leave room for multiple interpretations, so we need to say any such determination shall be determined by the BUMP
Greg Shatan: (15:12) My bias is toward clarity....
Greg Shatan: (15:13) Then brevity. I think we got too abbreviated, which made things unclear. (See my email about why this was both technically correct and difficult to read).
Greg Shatan: (15:14) I apologize that I am in two meetings and unable to speak in this one.
Avri Doria: (15:16) sory for the mulltiple starts, had to reboot. can listen , but cannot speak today. i am also in two meetings (IGF MAG being the other)
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (15:16) Greg's text adds some clarity. But I am okay with the single sentence version
matthew shears: (15:16) I also support Greg's language - it is clearer
Guru Acharya: (15:16) I also support Brett/Greg's text
Tatiana Tropina: (15:16) +1 from me for Greg's text
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:17) go with the longer version
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:17) fine with Greg text
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (15:18) BC support for these Articles of Incorporation relies upon ICANN Legal Department’s written statement that “organized under” has the same meaning as “incorporated under”.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (15:23) @Brett -- Sam Eisner's email on AoI is here http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/accountability-cross-community/2016-June/012714.html
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:23) Ifully agree with Holly
Brett Schaefer: (15:24) Thx, Steve.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (15:25) Chris Wilson
Chris Wilson: (15:25) Yes, me :)
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:26) and me - sorry about being slow to the party, I was trying to work out an area to help that best matches some wokr I am doing at home, and staff accountability was it
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (15:27) Welcome Chris !
Niels ten Oever 2: (15:28) Happy to confirm my commitment and greatly looking forward to work on the human rights FoI with Nigel and Paul
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:29) Confirming my wilingness and ability to serve as Rappourter
Sebastien (ALAC): (15:29) I confirm my availability and commitment
Grace Abuhamad: (15:29) We'll launch the mailing lists now that we have confirmed Rapporteurs! Thanks all
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:29) Pledging so long as it doesn't end up like WP1!!!
FIONA ASONGA (ASO): (15:29) I am happy to confirm my commitment to serve impartially.
Edward Morris: (15:29) As do I with the CEP
Farzaneh Badii: (15:30) confirm my availability
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:30) I may subscribe for more groups than I have announced.
Greg Shatan: (15:30) I am confirming and pledging as well.
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:30) Pls instruct the rapporteur to kindly accept such posterieur announcementz
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:33) such whats?
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:35) We should reinstate the legal committee we had previously set up.
Farzaneh Badii: (15:35) agree with Robin
Edward Morris: (15:36) Agree with Robin. Best functioning group I've experienced at ICANN.
Sabine Meyer: (15:36) the key to this magic might have been the brevity of its existence ;)
Edward Morris: (15:36) :)
Farzaneh Badii: (15:37) Does being as member or observer affect costs?
Grace Abuhamad: (15:37) Yes, the CWG-Stewardship Client Committee consists of the two Chairs (non-lawyers) + Greg Shatan and Maarten Simon (both lawyers)
Grace Abuhamad: (15:37) (My comment was in response to Mathieu, not Farzaneh, for the record)
David McAuley (RySG): (15:38) Agree w Robin
Grace Abuhamad: (15:41) Here you go: https://community.icann.org/x/VAQdAw
Greg Shatan: (15:42) Happy to serve again on the CCWG Leagl Committee....
Edward Morris: (15:42) As would I.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:42) Agree, Mathieu, am happy to join again.
David McAuley (RySG): (15:42) Me too
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:42) Move forward with the previois model, get Members to confirm willingness of curse
Greg Shatan: (15:43) *Legal*
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:43) typo sorry cure = course
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (15:45) I also agree with re-establishing the Legal Committe, but we should give the opportunity for new volunteers to join as well
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (15:46) loudly
FIONA ASONGA (ASO): (15:46) yes tijani we can hear you
Rudi Daniel: (15:47) I would like to suggest a separate budget committe perhaps as just said...coaches..
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:47) Agree with Tijani
Sonigitu Ekpe: (15:47) +1
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:48) Legal services are only part of the budget, so I don't see the entire budget being within its remit, a separate cmte or co-chairs should manage overall budget
Edward Morris: (15:48) +1 Robin
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:48) exactly Robin/Ed
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:49) I prefer option 2, since the need for independence is a key factor
Sabine Meyer: (15:50) agree
Edward Morris: (15:50) Same here.
Keith Drazek: (15:50) I support using ICANN Legal as a first step, generally speaking. I was more concerned about independence during WS1. ICANN Legal should have some skin in the game in trying to keep costs down, no?
Tatiana Tropina: (15:50) +1 to Robin, option 2
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:51) we have a budget to work within, so we will have to make requests cost efficient, but not lose our right to ask outside council first if we feel it is necessary
Sabine Meyer: (15:51) Option 2 accounts for that, to my understanding.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:51) Keith, but option two actually includes this
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:51) Yes to Opt 2
Greg Shatan: (15:51) I vote for option 2 as well.
Edward Morris: (15:52) Under option 2 questions can certainly be referred to ICANN legal in first instance after consideration of all variables, including costs.
Greg Shatan: (15:52) With all due respect, there's a reason we engaged independent counsel in the first place.
Keith Drazek: (15:52) I didn't suggest we waive our right to seek external/independent advice.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:53) we have issues like transparency and staff accountability on our plate. of course we need independence as much in WS2 as we did in WS1
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:53) That is how I undersatnd it Edward yes thus my choice
Alberto Soto: (15:53) Hi, Sorry for being late
Greg Shatan: (15:53) Keith, Option 11 gives ICANN legal a right of first refusal on all legal advice.
Keith Drazek: (15:53) I'm just saying it might be more efficient to start with ICANN legal and then escalate as needed.
Guru Acharya: (15:53) I also support Option 2. However, if such discretion is with the legal committee, then the sub head of legal costs should also be owned by the legal committee. The legal committee should be aware of the costs before authorising a request so that they may prioritise when needed.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:53) I think its ablended solution
Edward Morris: (15:53) @Robin. Not to mention CEP which ICANN legal has a direct interest in.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:53) we should not tie our hands with option 1.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (15:54) it will always be useful to know what ICANN legal thinks, but we always need the capacity to get independent advice where the committee sees value
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:54) Keith I saw that as a part of a well Mx Opt 2 though
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:54) good point, Ed.
Keith Drazek: (15:54) That's not how I read it, Greg.
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:54) This is what I did suggest
Greg Shatan: (15:54) Keith, I think that Option 2 gives the Committee the right to make that determination on a case by case basis. Option 1 is much more directive..
Stephen Deerhake (.as): (15:54) +1 Jordan.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:54) Merger of text may make cleaer though let's see what new text cn be "created"
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:54) We did not come this far to waive our right to independent counsel.
Keith Drazek: (15:55) Ok, that's fine. I did not suggest waiving anything, and that was not my understanding of the options.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:55) That's how I see it, Greg.
Kavouss Arasteh: (15:55) Mathieu, could we think of a combination of elements of both options and look at that at our next meeting as this is not top urgent
Philip Corwin: (15:56) Prefer option 2. While ICANN legal can always provide their POV, Committee should be free to seek external legal advice when appropriate
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:57) That's an important point. We are billed for Jones Day too.
Keith Drazek: (15:57) Good clarifying question, Holly.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:57) A *good* reason to go with Opt 2 then
Sebastien (ALAC): (15:57) Good point Holly
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (15:57) so observe that issue with any Opt 3
Philip Corwin: (15:58) That means that asking ICANN Legal for an opinion will not avoid cost being incurred if they in turn request JD input
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (15:58) so we get billed for the legal advice we don't get to see....
Sebastien (ALAC): (15:58) With all the comments co-chairs can build an option 3
Farzaneh Badii: (15:59) How about we write out the option to reach out to Jones Day!
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:00) ICANN's legal advice should only come out of CCWG budgets if/where it is responding to CCWG needs. This budget should not cover ICANN legal costs related to ICANN responding to the CCWG's work.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:00) Agreed, Farzi.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:00) Is there clarity about what is covered?
Avri Doria: (16:00) makes no sense for this budget to include Jones Day
Brett Schaefer: (16:00) If we ask advice of JD -- who exactly is their client? The CCWG or ICANN?
Greg Shatan: (16:00) Their client is ICANN, Inc.
Avri Doria: (16:01) first foremost and alwasys.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:01) But as it does Avri *and I agree it makes me worry* it needs to be closely monitored/mngd make sure any Opt 3 covers proper control issue or we risk JD being a budget blck hole
Greg Shatan: (16:01) The intertwining of direct costs of the CCWG and the overall accountability and IANA transition costs is troublesome.
Kavouss Arasteh: (16:02) A 30 -45 minutes dedicated meeting would suffice if there would be a combined draft
Brett Schaefer: (16:02) If the cost is not really reduced and they are not a CCWG client, then why seek their advice instead of Sidley or Adler?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:02) Yes Greg obviously that worries some of us from a transparancy POV
Greg Shatan: (16:02) We can't be responsible for ICANN's use of JD to advise ICANN.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:02) There is no way we can accept option 1. We simply must retain our independence.
Greg Shatan: (16:02) Agree with Robin, Option 1 is a non-starter.
Edward Morris: (16:02) Exactly Brett.
Greg Shatan: (16:03) Informaton about facts/history can be distinguished from legal advice.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:03) Opt 2 with some minor modification re our discussions to make a new Opt 3.. as we agree I beleive noting ICANN Legal (INTERNAL) as an early option , and noting Holly's current ponts of coure re time for responses
Greg Shatan: (16:03) Getting the first from ICANN legal is sensible.
Greg Shatan: (16:04) But that still should be left to the Committee's discretion.
matthew shears: (16:04) Agree option 1 is a non starter
Kavouss Arasteh: (16:04) A compromise option should ensure the independency of CCWG TO ANY PARTICULAR ENTITY
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (16:04) Agree with you, Kavouss
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:05) Noted and understood Rosemary/Holly and Legal Committee should Mx
Kavouss Arasteh: (16:06) A great amount of expenses is associated with legal consts thus we should be quite carefull
Sabine Meyer: (16:06) thank you for sharing that insight, Rosemary
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (16:08) Hi sorry my connection went down for a while
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (16:09) Apologies but I must move to another call at this time.
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (16:12) @Tijanni: I fully understand your budget concerns, but we also need to think that we may need expertise that cannot be provided by th legal firms that have ben supporting us so far
Brett Schaefer: (16:13) I need to go, bye all!
Guru Acharya: (16:13) +1 Pedro
Pedro da Silva - [GAC Brasil]: (16:13) Tijani*
Rudi Daniel: (16:13) +1 also Pedro
Greg Shatan: (16:13) Work Stream 1 was essentially a corporate governance project, which drove the need for extensive legal advice and work. I would expect policy-related WS2 topics to need little legal advice, except if Bylaws are needed to carry out their recommendations.
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:14) and legal advice can be obtained in a coherent way and asking the right questions, rather than fact-checking per se
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:14) Right, Greg, we don't have nearly the legal issues to grapple with that we did in WS1 and the corporate model for ICANN.
Keith Drazek: (16:14) Agreed
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:15) Early date confirmation highly appreciated
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:16) and ICANN is providing travel support for CCWG Accountability members to Hyderabad?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:16) @Greg and Robin: Jurisdictional issues will be quite complicated - e.g. issue of CA sole designator - how does that translate to other legal systems?
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:17) how many less travel slots for ccwg members is that?
Rudi Daniel: (16:17) have to leave now...thankyou all
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:17) ok -so about the same, thanks.
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:18) I reckon this means there are no travel slots for rapporteurs?
Farzaneh Badii: (16:18) I agree Anne, the amount of legal advice depends mainly on WS2 topics.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:19) Human Rights might also be heavy on legal.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (16:19) Not guaranteed at this time, we need to discuss as part of the process
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:20) It would be good to understand the expertise of Sidley and Adler, do they have HR lawyers?
Farzaneh Badii: (16:20) That's a good question Niels
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:20) With expertise in intl human rights law?
Greg Shatan: (16:20) Taling with IPC right now -- WS2 volunteers need to be added to the main email list now.
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:21) That would be lovely
Tatiana Tropina: (16:21) +1 to Niels
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:21) All WS2 volunteers also need to be informed of the meeting the day before each ICANN meeting.
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:22) When is the plan for that happening?
Kavouss Arasteh: (16:23) Mathieu, Congradulation on handling the meeting alone
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (16:23) Good Meeting all Looking fwd to getting our WS2 activities fully underway ASAP... Talk agaain soon then Bye for now...
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:23) thanks all!
Jordan Carter (.nz, ccNSO): (16:23) ciao!
David McAuley (RySG): (16:23) Thanks Mathieu, staff, and all, bye
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:23) Thanks all!
matthew shears: (16:23) thanks
Farzaneh Badii: (16:23) thanks bye
Niels ten Oever 2: (16:23) bye!
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (16:23) thanks Mathieu!!
Tatiana Tropina: (16:23) bye all! thanks!
Avri Doria: (16:23) bye, thanks
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (16:23) Thanks, all, bye!
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC): (16:23) THank you Matthieu!
nigel hickson: (16:23) thanks
Alberto Soto: (16:23) Thanks!! Bye
Rosemary Fei, Alder Colvin: (16:23) Bye.
Greg Shatan: (16:23) Bye all!
Stephen Deerhake (.as): (16:23) Cheers!
Sonigitu Ekpe: (16:24) thank you and bye
Andreea Todoran: (16:24) Thank you!