Members: Alan Greenberg, Becky Burr, Bruce Tonkin, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Eberhard Lisse, Izumi Okutani, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julia Wolman, Julie Hammer, Leon Sanchez, Mathieu Weill, Pär Brumark, Robin Gross, Sébastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Thomas Rickert (17)
Participants: Aarti Bhavana, Andrew Sullivan, Barrack Otieno, Chris Disspain, David McAuley, Edward Morris, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Keith Drazek, Malcolm Hutty, Mark Carvell, Martin Boyle, Mary Uduma, Padmini Baruah, Sabine Meyer, Steve Crocker, Suzanne Woolf, Tatiana Tropina, Tom Dale (23)
Legal Counsel: Edward McNicholas, Holly Gregory, Nancy McGlamery, Rosemary Fei (4)
Guests: ARI, Asha Hemrajani, John Poole, Jonathan Robinson, Maciej Tomaszewski, Manal Ismail, Nigel Hickson (7)
Staff: Alice Jansen, Bernie Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Grace Abuhamad, Laena Rahim, Xavier Calvez
Apologies: Seun Ojedeji
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p1yy7vjq43f/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/accountability/ccwg-accountability-15dec15-en.mp3
These high-level notes are designed to help you navigate through content of the call and do not substitute
in any way the transcript.
1. Welcome
2. Follow-up discussion on Marrakech meeting
Action: CCWG to send recommendations and proposals for work during ICANN55 to the mailing
list by 16 December (end of day UTC).
3. Clarification of potential request to lawyers re: PICs and mission statement
Action: Liaise with ICANN on activity PICS and reframe the question for legal counsel in light of that input.
4. Update on CWG Draft Comment
5. Update on SO/AC endorsement timeline
6. Update on Board interactions
Action: CoChairs to relay questions from Kavouss through Board liaison
7. Closing remarks
CCWG-ACCT is committed to making this work.
Action: CCWG to send recommendations and proposals for work during ICANN55 to the mailing
list by 16 December (end of day UTC).
Action: Liaise with ICANN on activity PICS and reframe the question for legal counsel in light of that input.
Action: CoChairs to relay questions from Kavouss through Board liaison
Brenda Brewer: (12/14/2015 23:37) Welcome all to the CCWG Accountability Meeting #72 on 15 December 2015 @ 06:00 UTC! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior:
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (23:42) Hi Brenda
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (23:43) Is there another meeting today at20,00 21,30 pls ?
Brenda Brewer: (23:45) Hi Kavouss. I am not aware of another meeting today at 20:00 UTC. The webinar #3 will be on Wednesday, 16 December at 20:00 UTC.
Steve Crocker: (23:48) Hello, everyone
Holly J. Gregory (Sidley): (23:55) Greetings all!
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (23:56) Hello everyone
Holly J. Gregory (Sidley): (23:56) Hello Kavouss. Hope you are "on the mend"!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (23:59) Hi all
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (23:59) hi all
Tatiana Tropina: (23:59) hi all
Aarti Bhavana: (12/15/2015 00:00) Hi All
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:00) Co-Chairs
Andrew Sullivan: (00:01) Hello everyone
Greg Shatan: (00:01) Hello, all!
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:01) PLEASE INCLUDE IN iTEM 6, the following, and Board recent comments on the 3rd CCWG PROPOSAL
nigel hickson: (00:02) good morning
David McAuley (RySG): (00:02) Good morning all
Becky Burr: (00:02) hello all
Pär Brumark (Gac Niue): (00:02) Hi all!
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (00:03) Good evening, all.
Brenda Brewer: (00:03) Barrack Otieno is on audio only
Grace Abuhamad: (00:04) Thanks B
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:05) You are speaking Thomas :P
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (00:05) @Kavouss: yes we can discuss Board comment under item 6
Edward Morris: (00:07) WS2
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:08) Good to hear you are recovering Kavouss :-)
Sébastien (ALAC): (00:11) Yes WS2
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:13) It is good to hear that no face to face meeting is planned to take place in Marrakesh. Though I wonder where the certainty that this is all happening without issues is coming from.
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:14) SO we can not make our bookings, and I assume that if an additional meeting were now to be called on short notice the co-chairs would take responsibility for the additional costs?
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:14) Typo, "so we can NOW make or bookins"
Alan Greenberg: (00:15) It is not just GAC members. The ALAC has been vitally concerned about this area.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (00:15) Eberhard, Thomas conclusion was that we'll take further inputs and then give clear indications on plans within a few days
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (00:15) Thanks to Leon for this good overview, and as Alan says we have just flagged this issue again, but it has been raised by different stakeholders
Alan Greenberg: (00:17) In my mind, the real question is whether a PIC resulting from GAC advice can be overturned by an IRP since it is will not have been created through a bottom-up process.
Julia Wolman, GAC, Denmark: (00:17) Thanks for the overview and for submitting the question to the lawyers, I do not have examples at the moment
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:17) Mathieu, can you please give a date by when we can start aking arrangements?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (00:19) Next Tue should be safe
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (00:19) Hi Leon - I do not have audio right now, but I refer to my comments in the emailing list. ICANN legal under the supervision of CCWG might well be suited to provide a sample of typical PICs which could be considered for this general assessment
David McAuley (RySG): (00:21) Fair point @Becky
Becky Burr: (00:23) Alan, then what does the contracting authority mean?
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (00:23) Not just GAC advice, Alan. Could SSAC advice be disallowed if it is not bottom-up?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:24) Macolmn+ 1
Alan Greenberg: (00:24) Becky, I have no idea. If the ability to enter into contracts in furtherance of its mision, I am not sure why we need so many of the other mission changes that CCWG participants seem to have thought were absolutely necessary.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:25) There are 1930 gTLD AND THERE WOULD BE MORE IN FUTURE.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:25) iT IS DIFFICULT TO FIND EVEN SOME tYPICAL picS WHICH WOULD REPRESENT ALL pics
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:26) Thank you,
Malcolm Hutty: (00:26) @Kavouss: Exactly
Alan Greenberg: (00:26) I think this all comes down to a large number of mission changeswhere we have little idea on how they will interact or cause 2nd or 3rd order effects.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:26) The study would be inclonc lussive
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (00:26) hi team - been on the audio for the last 15 mins
Becky Burr: (00:27) @ Alan - such as?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:27) The question is not workable and practical to be studied legally
Alan Greenberg: (00:28) This very question is an example. Will the Board be able to honour some or any GAC advice where it may conflict with some of the mission statements, whether tit is content related, botton-up requirements or whatever.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (00:29) but should it be able to?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:29) Grace,May some one confirms that there would be no travelling support for CCWG actuivities in Marrakesh
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (00:29) @Kavouss: it's not fully decided yet
Becky Burr: (00:29) the Mission is not new
Alan Greenberg: (00:30) @Jordan. If we do have the concept of GAC giving advice that it beleives is in the global public interest, then we do needa way to honour it. Otherwise it is a meaningless right.
Julia Wolman, GAC, Denmark: (00:30) +1 Alan
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (00:30) My perception is that we are being asked to sign off on a Bylaws amendment which we know impacts an essential tool (which are PICs), without knowing what the effect of this impact is. That is certainly problematic for our political hierarchies
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:30) As for the lawyers study, we need to hold up untill we have a clear view on the matter
Alan Greenberg: (00:31) The GAC safeguard for sensitive domains are good examples.
Alan Greenberg: (00:31) safeguardS
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:31) There is difficult to tertermine what is " typical PIC"?
Greg Shatan: (00:31) With over 500 PICs, how many would you need to pick beforeyou covered alll "typical" PICs?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:31) tHEN WE must hold up for the time being
Holly J. Gregory (Sidley): (00:32) Thank you for clarity about which Mission language. We will be guided by 3rd draft alone.
Alan Greenberg: (00:32) There are not 500 GAC-related PICs. Most of those were voluntary.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (00:32) ALan's concern was raised in Stress Test #30 (page 28 at https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=56145016&preview=/56145016/56984616/CCWG%20Draft%20Proposal_Annex15_Dec.01.2015.pdf )
Greg Shatan: (00:32) So, we are not looking at voluntary PICs?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:33) what we are looking then?
Greg Shatan: (00:33) We are nailing mercury to the wall....
Alan Greenberg: (00:33) The EXISTANCE of PICs is one issue. GAC-specific PICs are another.
Greg Shatan: (00:33) I think there are concerns about both GAC-driven PICs and voluntary PICs.
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:34) I take it that we ourselves do not understand what we are asking the chartering organizations to approve.
Holly J. Gregory (Sidley): (00:34) Thanks Steve.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:34) There would difficult to judge what pic is a typical one
Keith Drazek: (00:34) Shocker that PICs turned out to be a problem....
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (00:34) Agree with Jorge and way forward on this question of ability fro community to define conractual commitments that serve the oublic interest e.g. limits on who can register under a domain targettign a market that is regualted in many countiies.
Alan Greenberg: (00:35) The very existence of PICs could be subject to whether they would be allowed under the new Bylaws.
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:35) My call dropped
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:36) There is a need to discuss this issue at the next GAC before raising any further action on this.
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:36) I can hear but can't speak
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (00:36) my call failed entirely
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:37) Onced gain, the issue is raw and premature
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:37) Thanks Chris
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:37) my call dropped
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (00:37) GAC has a conference call on he 18th: can raise this then as an alert on a new issue.
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:37) audio is very poor goig off all the time
Keith Drazek: (00:38) Agree with Chris. A PIC is either voluntary or not voluntary. There's probably nothing "typical" about any of them.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:38) NO WE CAN NOT .tHIS REQUIRES A FACE TO FACE MEETING IN THE ENTIRE gac. The purpose of the call on 18 is something else
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (00:38) I thinkmthey should reboot Adobe :-)-O
Alan Greenberg: (00:39) @Steve, and ST 30 says the contract provisions that did not result from a bottom up policy could be overturned.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:39) A VOLUTARY OR NOVOLUTARY STATEMENT CAN NOT BE PUT IN ANY COVER TO BE TYPICALé
David McAuley (RySG): (00:42) pls mute if not speaking
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (00:45) MY QUESTIONS WERE NOT ONLY FOR EDITING BUT ON SUBSTANCE ALSO
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (00:48) In the GAC we are having a call on Dec 18th
Brenda Brewer: (00:49) Kavouss' line disconnected
Brenda Brewer: (00:49) will call him right back
Keith Drazek: (00:55) The GNSO Council has a call on the 17th where we will discuss the CCWG proposal. Stakeholder Group and Constituency comments are under development . The hope and plan is to determine if there are any obstacles to approval, but the GNSO will likely need another meeting in January to pass a resolution on the proposal.
Keith Drazek: (00:56) Mute please!
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (00:57) can staff mute all the lines?
Chris Disspain: (00:58) So Keith, no appoval from GNSO likely by 21 Dec ?
Izumi Okutani(ASO): (00:58) Just for clarity 21st Dec for ASO is to share our comments, the formal approval by ASO will be after the revised proposal is out - incase it was ambiguous
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (00:58) Thanks Izumi. Noted
Keith Drazek: (00:59) @Chris: I don't believe so.
Chris Disspain: (00:59) It seems that both Keith and Izumi are saying they won't be able to 'approve' or otherwise by the 21 Dec deadline...is that correct?
Keith Drazek: (01:01) I hope and expect the GNSO will be able to signal any problems, i.e "deal killers" by the 21st, but the formal approval process will likely need another meeting.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:01) so where does that leave our "non voluntary" timetable?
Keith Drazek: (01:01) Thank you, Leon.
Chris Disspain: (01:01) Thanks Leon...undestood
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:02) half of ICANN seems to be telling us to "rush rush rush", another half of ICANN seems to be telling us to "get it right, don't rush"
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:02) which half should we listen to? :-)
Keith Drazek: (01:02) Fair question, Jordan. The answer is both!
Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (01:03) Alan, we said earlier we would go back to the COs in case substantial changes are made to the proposal
Izumi Okutani(ASO): (01:03) Leon's comment accurately explains ASO situation, we can express the general support by 21st Dec and "deal killer".
Tatiana Tropina: (01:03) @Thomas which changes you will consider substantial?
Tatiana Tropina: (01:05) Thanks Thomas
Mark Carvell GAC - UK Govt: (01:05) As previously noted, GAC has conference call on 18th and process has been set out by Chair.
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (01:05) SO the Chartering Organizations are expected to sign off on something relying on the CCWG Accountability's decision whether changes after the fact are substantial.
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (01:05) Good to know.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:06) Dear Co-Chair, PLS CLEARY DETERMINE whether we will have a CCWG meeting in Marrakesh or NOT, and if yes, would tghere be travelling support or NO, wE NEED A CLEAR DETERMINATION ON THAT NOW?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (01:07) @Kavouss: we will determine that in next few days
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:07) Explanation given by Thomas was not clear on either of the two questions
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:08) including the travelling support.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:08) Pls confirm
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:09) Mathieu , pls kindly confirm that the issue of travelling support would also be made clear?
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:10) It would be awfully unfortunate if the very aggressive timetable pressure from ICANN staff, which caused this group major concern, is then found not to be the result of Board requirements
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (01:10) Yes Kavouss
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (01:10) Shortly
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:11) If ICANN would not support my travelling to Marrakesh then I have to make my mind what to do
Tatiana Tropina: (01:12) Thomas, this "another occasion" for board's comments - will it be a call scheduled for that any time soon?
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:13) On the rejection of any Rec. by the 2/3 Board must be publickly available indicating the objecting Board,s Member
Tatiana Tropina: (01:13) Not sure, because if they are issuing "public interest threat" for some critical issues
Eberhard W Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (01:13) SO the meeting in Santa Monic was not in lrelation to the the Board.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:14) lol
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC APRegional Member 2: (01:15) it seems like none of my chat comments are not getting through??
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:15) NOTHING in the package here can possibly be construed as a breach of fiduciary duties. We're so far away from that line that it isn't even funny.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:15) Cheryl, haven't seen one for ages aside from this one now.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC APRegional Member 2: (01:15) *now* they are *sigh* AC is flakey for me tody
Keith Drazek: (01:15) As we have before, the CCWG needs to consider the Board's comments as we do all public comments. And now, at this stage of the deliberations, we need to balance them carefully with the input from the chartering organizations who have to approve the package.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (01:16) +1 Keith
Keith Drazek: (01:17) Speaking personally, I don't see significant issues with the Board's input. And I welcome that it was submitted well before the end of the comment period.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:17) this is simply an organisational power balance discussion now, not a fiduciary one.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:17) and I believe that most of the Board input is also constructuve and able to be dealt with
Keith Drazek: (01:17) Agreee Jordan.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (01:18) Agree
Izumi Okutani(ASO): (01:18) +1 Jordan
Chris Disspain: (01:18) thank you Jordan and Keith...so do I
Alan Greenberg: (01:18) Keith, I tend to agree.
Tatiana Tropina: (01:18) Actually Kavouss asked my question
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:18) the problematic areas are the inspection and human rights ones, where the comments don't jive with what the report contains, but that's OK
Tatiana Tropina: (01:18) what will happen if board rejects some of the recommendations as it says in the public comments - will we have to negotiate as it is provided in the charter?
Alan Greenberg: (01:19) @Jordan, it does become a fiduciary duty if they feel a change is not in the best interests of the organization.
Tatiana Tropina: (01:19) The HR comments are not based on the bylaw or on the recommendation text
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:19) Thomas $
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:19) tks
Tatiana Tropina: (01:19) It was my hand. You answered my question, I think
Keith Drazek: (01:20) @Alan: The test is not "in the best interest of the organization" it's "in the global public interest." Right?
Tatiana Tropina: (01:20) @Keith, +1
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:20) Thomas,
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:21) Pls confirm that the rejection of any Rec,. require 75% of the Board's Member?
Keith Drazek: (01:21) @Kavouss: I think it's 2/3 but am prepared to be corrected.
Alan Greenberg: (01:21) @Keith, that is not 100% clear to me. Their "right" to say they don't agree with the CCWG recs is GPI. But when it comes down to approving bylaws, it is far less well defined. But as Bruce is saying, there are a lot of steps in between.
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:22) Alan, their job is the Global Public Interest. There are so many ways to organise the organisation behind it that something that, narrowly read, wasn't in the organisation's short term interests should be looked through in respecting the very fiduciary duties you are talking about
Tatiana Tropina: (01:22) 2/3 I think though at the call someone told 3/4 but I saw the charter and resolution yesterday, it was 2/3
Keith Drazek: (01:22) Thanks Alan, I appreciate the distinction.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:23) What are the legal basis and criteria by which the Board rejects a given Recommendation?
Alan Greenberg: (01:23) I don't think we will get down to the stage of drafted bylaws that they will refuse to ratify.
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:23) Are these basis and criteria available or only they are subject to board's desretion
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:24) Good questions, Kavouss :-)
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:24) if we don't know the answer, we probably can't close out the report
Jordan Carter (.nz, WP1 rapporteur): (01:27) thanks all, bye
Sabine Meyer: (01:28) good bye everyone!
KAVOUSS aRASTEH: (01:28) Bye
David McAuley (RySG): (01:28) Thanks all and bye
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (01:28) thanks everyone!
Pär Brumark (Gac Niue): (01:28) Thx all! Bye!
Steve Crocker: (01:28) Thank you, everyone
Leon Sanchez (Co-chair ALAC): (01:28) bye all
Izumi Okutani(ASO): (01:28) Thanks all
Jonathan Zuck/ACT: (01:28) Thank you!
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (01:28) bye all
Tatiana Tropina: (01:28) good bye everyone!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC APRegional Member 2: (01:28) BYE FOR NOW EVERYONE
Andrew Sullivan: (01:28) thansks, bye!
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland): (01:28) thaks and bye!
Keith Drazek: (01:28) Thanks all
Aarti Bhavana: (01:28) bye all
Martin Boyle, Nominet: (01:28) thanks, bye
nigel hickson: (01:28) thank you
Greg Shatan: (01:28) Bye!