Sub-group Members: Avri Doria, Bastiaan Goslings, Cheryl Langdon-Orr. David McAuley, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Janet Shih Hajek, John Laprise, Niels ten Oever, Robin Gross, Tatiana Tropina (11)
Staff: Bernard Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews
Apologies: Markus Kummer, Herb Waye
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to firstname.lastname@example.org **
1. Administrivia - Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc
2. Review of UK governments comments
3. Review of Swiss government comments
Disclaimer: This rough edit transcript, which may contain missing, misspelled or paraphrased words, is only provided for your immediate review and is not certified as verbatim and is not to be cited in any way.
NTO – Circulate draft language concerning UK govt comment wrt Ruggy possibly applying to ICANN Org. vs ICANN the community.
- BT – Circulate comment tracking.
Brenda Brewer: (8/1/2017 13:15) Good day and welcome to Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #28 on 1 August 2017 @ 19:00 UTC!
Bonnie-CART: (13:50) Hello, Brenda!
Brenda Brewer: (13:50) Hi Bonnie. Hi all!
Bonnie-CART: (13:51) Brenda, may I ask who the Rapporteur will be today for this meeting?
Glenn McKnight: (13:51) joined
Brenda Brewer: (13:53) Niels ten Oever is the Rapporteur
Glenn McKnight: (13:54) Sharing paper https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__policyreview.info_articles_analysis_coding-2Dand-2Dencoding-2Drights-2Dinternet-2Dinfrastructure&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=pM75lLYv8XKYaGIClWN04a1wrGqzEn1TYn-5R7B80ls&s=Wm92zl21SU2iCrCE8GKzaBCNdReWMoCZgY-A4wXzsDE&e=
Bonnie-CART: (13:54) Thank you, Brenda!
Brenda Brewer: (13:55) my pleasure. :)
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (13:57) Hello all
Tatiana Tropina: (13:59) Hi everyone
David McAuley: (13:59) hi, will dial in using 8624 in a moment
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:01) Hemispheric discrimination our friends from the Antipodes like to remind us
David McAuley: (14:03) ok
Glenn McKnight: (14:03) yes
David McAuley: (14:04) i think you are correct Niels
David McAuley: (14:06) I agree with Tatiana
Brenda Brewer: (14:06) Document on screen can also be accessed on HR meeting wiki page here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_JQIhB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=pM75lLYv8XKYaGIClWN04a1wrGqzEn1TYn-5R7B80ls&s=5gkabJVoxSwn63lQAYS3fG7zyknLCdn3VetdYbloIFg&e=
Greg Shatan: (14:07) Agree with Tatiana and David.
avri doria: (14:07) sometime i think that people call the Ruggie principles to not admit to their full and proper name. i see no problem with mentioning them and see it as adviseable.
Niels ten Oever: (14:08) Can evertone who is not speaking pls mute their mic?
Tatiana Tropina: (14:08) Avri I think we mentioned them - it's just mentioning them won't add anything but confusion here at this particular part of the FoI
avri doria: (14:08) doesn't confuse me. your argument does, though.
David McAuley: (14:09) i lost adio connection
avri doria: (14:09) mentioning them more than once is not a crime.
David McAuley: (14:09) will dial back in
Tatiana Tropina: (14:09) Avri this part refers to internationally recognised HR and instruments that contain them. Ruggie don't contain HR.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:10) is it clearer? I don't mind mentioning them twice or three times where appropriate
Tatiana Tropina: (14:10) not sure it's appropriate here as they do not include HR.
avri doria: (14:10) i do not understand why the bylaw does not permit this angauge.
avri doria: (14:11) i just find the persistence on anti-guidelines unformtautent
Tatiana Tropina: (14:11) it's not the bylaw - it;'s a particluar part of FoI. Ruggie do not contain HR. They don't say which HR are recognised.
avri doria: (14:11) ... unfortunate
avri doria: (14:12) they give guidence to all businesses which we would prefer to avoid
Brenda Brewer: (14:13) My apologies for delayed dialout to Cheryl.
avri doria: (14:13) mostly but not completely. humanitarian international laws goes beyond warfare
Glenn McKnight: (14:14) Apologies for my phone or speakers onot muted. is it better.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:14) Avri it goes beyond warfare it regulated armed conflicts.
Greg Shatan: (14:15) +1 Tatiana.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:15) and it's applicable in time of armed conflict
Tatiana Tropina: (14:15) I am not sure ICANN is going to negage into this somehow but really the list is not exclusive.
avri doria: (14:15) i disagree. i have effects on varous topics.
avri doria: (14:15) it has effect ...
Tatiana Tropina: (14:15) Am having hard time to imagine how FoI will be approved if we mention cybercrime investigations and armed conflict. BTW cybercrime convention doesn't contain any human rights.
avri doria: (14:15) but another set of rights we don't care about. ok.
avri doria: (14:15) no
Tatiana Tropina: (14:16) the set of right of combatants and non combatants?
Tatiana Tropina: (14:16) I care about them but what do they have to do with this FoI?
Greg Shatan: (14:16) There is plenty of room below the level of Bylaws compliance to bring in HR Instruments, Ruggie, etc.
Greg Shatan: (14:17) I don't think we are cherry picking rights at all; quite the opposite.
avri doria: (14:18) udhr is just apirational, need the humanitarian intl law to cover those issues. and they are issue that could affect our behavior or naming decsions or ublic interest issues.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:21) we bring up quite a list of instrumets
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:21) Tatiana's points make sense to me..
avri doria: (14:21) including, but not including but not limited to. so accept Tatiana proposal for an indication that the list is not complete.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:22) I will be completely against inclusion cybercrime convetion - this will be just ... words fail me :)
Tatiana Tropina: (14:22) Avri I am very much fine with this suggestion
Tatiana Tropina: (14:22) including but not limited to
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:23) yes
David McAuley: (14:25) agree with Greg - the limitr has to be internationally recognized HR as required by applicable law - we cvan't go beyond that IMO
avri doria: (14:25) it can be argued by some that thing not included or specificlly allowed for are excluded.
avri doria: (14:25) and that argument would be made in the future
Tatiana Tropina: (14:25) Agree Greg - it's like enforcement is directly excluded but other things are not
Tatiana Tropina: (14:25) Avri I think the "not limted to" language solves that particular problem here
avri doria: (14:25) that is why the phrase, but not limited to, is critical.
avri doria: (14:26) yes, i agree. but thought perhaps Greg was arguing against it.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:26) I think we're all ok with that edit Available
Greg Shatan: (14:27) No, I'm okay with "not limited to"
Greg Shatan: (14:27) It disambiguates the word "including".
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO): (14:28) Avri sorry auto correct just made your name,e "available"
David McAuley: (14:28) Thanks
Niels ten Oever: (14:32) Agree - community is not a company
Tatiana Tropina: (14:34) if there is such a need for Ruggie we can say ICANN can decide to commit to Ruggie
Tatiana Tropina: (14:34) CAN decide
Tatiana Tropina: (14:35) or consider
Tatiana Tropina: (14:35) if they decide to do so - fine
Tatiana Tropina: (14:35) I am fine with adding this line as it's up to ICANN org
Tatiana Tropina: (14:35) but let's not impose anything like that to the community as it is not much relevant - we can just say that this might be taken into account. Fine.
David McAuley: (14:36) could you read it again in total
Niels ten Oever: (14:36) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_17AvMLBfT8BmC3gUOTvaIuTuEqMbgiporUwqNymvhWhc_edit&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=pM75lLYv8XKYaGIClWN04a1wrGqzEn1TYn-5R7B80ls&s=NwP7DGy25z7B59QumZ4kcxLYNGRGc-UpK0KdYd5TNyU&e=
Niels ten Oever: (14:37) When examining its operations, ICANN the organization could also consider a framework like the UNGPs as well as specific instruments such as HRIAs to assess their impact on Human Rights, and offer remediation. However, this is up to ICANN the organization to develop and implement. The results of such HRIAs should be reflected in ICANN’s annual reporting.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:38) needs editing
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:38) hands
Niels ten Oever: (14:39) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_17AvMLBfT8BmC3gUOTvaIuTuEqMbgiporUwqNymvhWhc_edit&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=kbiQDH54980u4nTPfwdloDLY6-6F24x0ArAvhdeDvvc&m=pM75lLYv8XKYaGIClWN04a1wrGqzEn1TYn-5R7B80ls&s=NwP7DGy25z7B59QumZ4kcxLYNGRGc-UpK0KdYd5TNyU&e=
Niels ten Oever: (14:39) page 9
Niels ten Oever: (14:39) It's in the ' Consider how the interpretation and implementation of this Bylaw will interact withexisting and future ICANN policies and procedures.' part
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:40) time check - 20 minutes left in call
Tatiana Tropina: (14:41) We don't need to say Ruggie are useful. We can say ICANN possibly could decide to commit to them. If they want. We don't impose anything. And you know am against inclusion of Ruggie.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:42) I don't believe Ruggie for ICANN at all - but it's up to org to decide.
avri doria: (14:42) are we trying to reaken the like to the guiding principles again?
avri doria: (14:42) ..weaken ...
Glenn McKnight: (14:42) Good comment David
Tatiana Tropina: (14:45) may be we just ingnore the comment and explain why?
Tatiana Tropina: (14:45) I mean we do have Ruggie in the FoI!
David McAuley: (14:46) it depends on how it is said - and great care is needed IMO
Tatiana Tropina: (14:46) I dont belueve it will create problems but I believe we already have Ruggie and it's enough :)
Tatiana Tropina: (14:46) David +1 - I didn't suggest any language I just suggested the line
Tatiana Tropina: (14:46) btu I also think narrowing the Ruggie reference we have will be better
Tatiana Tropina: (14:47) as it will be clearer taht it's for org
avri doria: (14:47) i am strongly worried about constant effort to weaken reference to the UN Guiding Principles
Tatiana Tropina: (14:47) and it will better meet the concerns of those who want Ruggie to be mentioned
Tatiana Tropina: (14:47) We are working on adding the reference - in any case the consensus language will stay -- it's already there
avri doria: (14:47) you were perhaps. Tatian was talking about weakening.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:48) I was talking about being more precise with what it refers to
Tatiana Tropina: (14:48) :)
avri doria: (14:48) yeah, right
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:48) I had the previous comments on the before last UK comment?
Tatiana Tropina: (14:49) I actually think even UK comments itself speaks about ICANN corporation not community
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:50) exactly
avri doria: (14:51) seems a good point to me.
avri doria: (14:51) i support this comment
avri doria: (14:51) ok so apply it only to the corproation.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:51) Avri but that's what am saying
Tatiana Tropina: (14:52) or have been saying
David McAuley: (14:52) I am not sure I agree - depends on language
avri doria: (14:52) Tatian, it was not what i understood you to be saying everytime you said we should not include the UN Guiding principles.
avri doria: (14:53) that is twice i typoed out the final a on your name. sorry.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:53) We already have Ruggie included.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:53) Avri that's against human rights :))))))))
David McAuley: (14:53) I'm lost
Tatiana Tropina: (14:53) Am lost too
Tatiana Tropina: (14:53) I thought we discussed Shiva last time
Tatiana Tropina: (14:54) I remember commenting on that
Tatiana Tropina: (14:54) I agree that it will depend on the language!
Tatiana Tropina: (14:54) we decided that we try
Tatiana Tropina: (14:55) but we need to draw the line between community and the org to avoid further confusion I think... at least we can try
Tatiana Tropina: (14:55) Niels I thought I commented on Shiva's comments last time
Tatiana Tropina: (14:55) we are going through them again?
David McAuley: (14:55) very hard line to draw Tatiana
Tatiana Tropina: (14:56) David, agree - we can try and if we fail - we already have a consensus language
Tatiana Tropina: (14:56) Am sure we are on the same page here anyway.
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (14:56) time check - 4 minutes leeft
David McAuley: (14:56) Agree
Tatiana Tropina: (14:57) I don't remember
Tatiana Tropina: (14:57) what I said :)
Tatiana Tropina: (14:58) Oh now I remember what I said !!
avri doria: (14:58) isn't this about the interpetation of the bylaws, vis a vis hr.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:58) I now remember
Tatiana Tropina: (14:58) This was a very confused comment
avri doria: (14:58) so reconcilliation of interpretations seems a wise thing to do.
Tatiana Tropina: (14:58) you need to see it in the context!
Tatiana Tropina: (14:59) I can comment on the next call as we have no time left
Tatiana Tropina: (14:59) there is misunderstanding re what it refers to
Tatiana Tropina: (14:59) This conflict refers to Ruggie!
avri doria: (15:00) e.g some argue it is consistent with bylaws and ICANN says it is not.
Tatiana Tropina: (15:00) The line he comments on is our compromise language about Ruggie
John Laprise: (15:00) apologies...must run
Tatiana Tropina: (15:00) I think I'd rather comment on the next call as we are at the top of the hour
David McAuley: (15:01) agree w Greg
Tatiana Tropina: (15:01) Niels can we start next time with my comment on this? I remembered what I said :)
Bernard Turcotte - ICANN: (15:01) thanks all
avri doria: (15:02) will you remember in a week?
Tatiana Tropina: (15:02) Avri not sure :)
Greg Shatan: (15:02) Hold that thought, TT.....
Tatiana Tropina: (15:02) :D
avri doria: (15:02) bye
Tatiana Tropina: (15:02) bye all
David McAuley: (15:02) thanks all, good bye
Greg Shatan: (15:02) Bye!