Sub-group Members:  Andrew Mack, Avri Doria, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, David McAuley, Elizabeth Andrews, Erich Schweighofer, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Isabel Rutherfurd, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Leon Sanchez, Niels ten Oever, Patrick Dodson, Robin Gross, Tatiana Tropina, Tijani Ben Jamaa, Tristana Webster   (19)

Staff:  Elizabeth Andrews, Karen Mulberry, Nathalie Vergnolle, Yvette Guigneaux

Apologies:  Herb Waye, Markus Kummer, Corinne Cath

** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to **




1. Administrivia

Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc

 2. Analysis and discussion on the progress of the drafting team working on the new proposal for FoI

 2nd reading continued

  b.‘within the scope of other Core Values’ (with minor changes as per discussion last week)


  d. ‘internationally recognized human rights’

  e. ‘as required by applicable law’

  f. ‘This Core Value does not create, and shall not be interpreted to create, any obligation on ICANN outside its Mission or beyond obligations found in applicable law’

  g. ‘‘This Core Value does not obligate ICANN to enforce its human rights obligations or the human rights obligations of other parties, against other parties’ (with minor changes as per discussion last week)

 3. AOB


1. Administrivia

  • Audio only: Leon Sanchez
  • No SOI updates
  • Nigel Roberts will no longer be co-rapporteur of this subgroup, as he couldn't make the time commitment anymore.
  • 10 working weeks till Copenhagen. 
  • Next meeting Friday 19:00 UTC is an exception, will resume with regular schedule thereafter.

2. Analysis and discussion on the progress of the drafting team working on the new proposal for FoI

  • 2nd reading continued

  b.‘within the scope of other Core Values’ (with minor changes as per discussion last week)

  • Drafting team has worked on this section
  • Tatiana presented the revised text proposed by the drafting team
  • The openning bracket before "finally" is a mistake and will be removed.
  • David asking to clarify what the revision is about.
  • Tatiana indicated that the revision was about "legal hierarchy".
  • Greg indicated that the compromise proposed is the use of the work "standing' instead of "legal", ie "no standing hierarchy".
  • No further comments from the group.


  • Greg read the section on "respecting"
  • No further comments from the group

  d. ‘internationally recognized human rights’

  • Greg read the section  on "internationally recognized human rights"
  • Greg indicated that "International" should not be capitalized
  • Andrew asked: "not applicable" in a legal sense?
  • Greg: not applicable in any sense
  • Group agrees with Greg's explanation
  • Kavouss: international law should not interfere with applicable law
  • Greg: this is covered by the section "Furthermore, depending on the jurisdiction etc." as well as the next section.
  • David McAuley (RySG): it seems clear to me that national legislation is addressed in what Greg just read
  • Niels suggests moving to next section.

  e. ‘as required by applicable law’

  • Tatiana read the section on "as required by applicable law"
  • No changes were made here
  • No comments from the group

  f. ‘This Core Value does not create, and shall not be interpreted to create, any obligation on ICANN outside its Mission or beyond obligations found in applicable law’

  • Greg read the section 
  • No changes made
  • No comments from the group

  g. ‘‘This Core Value does not obligate ICANN to enforce its human rights obligations or the human rights obligations of other parties, against other parties’ (with minor changes as per discussion last week)

  • Greg read the section
  • Kavouss: "other parties against other parties" doesn't seem correct, suggest changing to "one party against other"
  • Greg agrees that the use of repetitive "other parties" is somewhat confusing. Suggest "one party against other parties" or " a party against other parties"
  • David McAuley (RySG): The language is inelegant but in bylaws as I recall
  • Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): it is very much like the Bylaws text - I'll defer to native speakers here...
  • Andrew Mack: of a party against others sounds best
  • Niels ten Oever proposes: This part of the bylaw draws the clear line between “respect” for human rights as a Core Value and any attempt to extend the Bylaw into requiring ICANN to enforce the human rights obligations of ICANN or any other party against other parties.
  • Group agrees with Niels text.
  • 2nd reading now finalized
  • Need to discuss next steps: do we want to share this part of the work with the plenary now, or prefer to work on the other document first?
  • Cheryl suggests sending this part to the plenary.
  • Group votes to decide whether to send or wait. QUorum in favor of sending the FoI to the plenary for discussion
  • ACTION (Niels): will take care of sending the FoI to the plenary

3. AOB

  • Leon congratulated the subgroup for the progress made.

Action Items

ACTION (Niels): will take care of sending the FoI to the plenary

Documents Presented

Presentation Meeting 13.pdf


Chat Transcript

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Welcome all to the WS2 - Human Rights Subgroup | Meeting #13  |  02 December 2016 @ 19:  00 UTC!

  Tatiana Tropina:  Hi all!

  Tatiana Tropina:  have problems with audio bridge again :  -(

  John Laprise:  Not hearig anything on my end so far

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Hi eVERY BODY

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Hi every body

  John Laprise:  Test tone heard loud and clear

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Hello All  =)

  David McAuley (RySG):  I am 4154

  Yvette Guigneaux:  got it David, thank you

  Tatiana Tropina:  I had ask Adobe for dial out several times before I finally managed to get connected

  David McAuley (RySG):  Great Yvette, thanks

  Greg Shatan:  Hello, all.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg (wave)

  Robin Gross:  Greetings from San Francisco!

  Greg Shatan:  Tatiana (drowning, not waving)

  David McAuley (RySG):  very colorful chat today

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Working on dial-ins - just in case something announces that the host has left the room, i haven't FYI

  Tatiana Tropina:  David, grab a colour too, before all of them are taken!

  David McAuley (RySG):  good idea Tatiana

  David McAuley (RySG):  I should appear in purple now

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Niels, It is difficult to be at this Friday meeting

  Tatiana Tropina:  Now now it's really colourful! :  -)

  David McAuley (RySG):  :  )

  Tatiana Tropina:  I so agree with Kavouss. Especially in the middle of IGF travel hurdles :  -)

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Hi all - apologies for being late - but I'm on the move...

  Niels ten Oever:  https:  //

  Yvette Guigneaux:  sync on - scrolling available if needed

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  What do we mean by * Othter Parties against other Partgies"

  Tatiana Tropina:  Jorge or Greg please.

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  It is rediculs

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  no audio

  Greg Shatan:  Tatiana!

  Greg Shatan:  I'll chime in....

  David McAuley (RySG):  no audio problem here, Jorge

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  and Matthew!

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  my audio is what is not working...

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  ons of other parties, against other parties’ This rediculous

  Andrew Mack:  sorry for being late.  trying to get done with some work pre-IGF

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  other parties, against other parties’ This rediculous?????

  John Laprise:  Kavous:   No, just prevents ICANN from becoming an enforcement agency

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  One party agasint  another party or againstother parties 

  David McAuley (RySG):  what is what Tatiana reading now bracketed?

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  One party agasint  another party or agains tother partiesis the minumum changes necessary 

  David McAuley (RySG):  why is it bracketed, that is

  Niels ten Oever:  Sorry David, that is an old brackety

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Tatina, plas stop reading

  David McAuley (RySG):  now I see

  David McAuley (RySG):  thanks Niels

  Tatiana Tropina:  Well I am sorry for reading but it was supposed to be reading... :  ( I didn't enjoy it any moment if you ask me! :  -)

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  thank you, Tatiana... the para beginning with "finally,..." is what we have found a new consensus on

  Greg Shatan:  Thank you for reading, Tatiana.

  Greg Shatan:  Agree that our drafting team was able to find consensus on this language.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg, sigh. I haven't read aloud such a long text for quite some time...

  Andrew Mack:  muffled

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  :  )

  David McAuley (RySG):  very nicely done, Tatiana

  Andrew Mack:  agreed, nicely done

  Tatiana Tropina:  hehehe thanks

  David McAuley (RySG):  Kavouss is somewhat muffled

  Tatiana Tropina:  really big relief after reading this chat... !

  Niels ten Oever:  The audio quality is quite bad Kavouss

  herb waye ombuds:  Regrets folks am in a meeting with Board members. Will catch up next week, Herb

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  David , pls speak slowly

  David McAuley (RySG):  sorry Kavouss, forgot, will do so

  David McAuley (RySG):  TY Tatiana

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Not sure what is causing muffling, working to fix if possible on this end

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  No Legal ghierarchy

  David McAuley (RySG):  Thanks Greg and Tatiana for compromise explanation

  avri doria:  by stannding you mean established?  not sure what standing means in this context.

  Tatiana Tropina:  I am very happy that it was such a constructve work on reaching this agreement, thanks a lot to Jorge and Greg for this

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Pls refain to introduce "Legal "

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  we have taken "legal" out

  Tatiana Tropina:  Kavouss, we stroke legal out.

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  M,ay you show the test that we are discussing$

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  No change to "respecting" from the first reading

  Greg Shatan:  Yes, standing meaning established, but established had an implication that one could become established, which made it inappropirate.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Resecting

  avri doria:  nd something could not gain standing?

  Tatiana Tropina:  You lucky lucky

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Fair enought Grec

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Niels:   I suggest that we invite the subgroup directly to make comments and that we only re-read sections where we have had changes

  Greg Shatan:  Avri, no .  For analogy, a committee is either a "standing committee" or it is not.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Agree with Jorge but we might get blamed for not going through the second reading properly? :  -(

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  We are getting very formal :  P

  avri doria:  i do not agree, but it does not matter. it is just a word.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Nice to get formal after some rather brutal fights :  -)

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  what fights? ;P

  Yvette Guigneaux:  Niels, you should have scrolling rights again in case you need them

  Tatiana Tropina:  Jorge lol

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Iam againt the use of " OTHER PARTIES AGAINST OTHER PARTIES

  avri doria:  sooner of later someone will argue that some ordering does indeed have standing. but that is ok.


  Yvette Guigneaux:  Andrew has a hand up

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Pls kindly excuse me for CAP

  Yvette Guigneaux:  no worries Kavouss, its ok  =)

  Tatiana Tropina:  yes it's about direct applicability

  Nathalie Vergnolle:  for the records, may I know who is talking?

  avri doria:  andrew mack

  Tatiana Tropina:  and Greg

  Nathalie Vergnolle:  thank you Avri

  David McAuley (RySG):  I agree with description Greg gave

  avri doria:  this is ICANN's escape clause from HR

  Tatiana Tropina:  Absolutely. The two para in this section try to avoid confusion also between applciable law and international instruments

  avri doria:  every HR instrument has an escape claue.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Avri but they are not directly applicable anyway.

  Andrew Mack:  you're right.  we need to be clear -- it was more the way it sounded, but I do understand the importance of this clarity

  Tatiana Tropina:  May be Jorge wants to read something? :  -)

  Tatiana Tropina:  I am trying to volntell him. I read an outrageously long para and I have Russian accent! :  D

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  not that I'm against reading (which I am, if it is old text), but I'm on the move in a noisy place... no reading sensible...

  Tatiana Tropina:  Oks Jorge I will read :  -)

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  I'll enjoy your russian nuances ;)

  David McAuley (RySG):  it seems clear to me that national legislation is addressed in what Greg just read

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  next time you may enjoy my swiss,spanish ones

  Tatiana Tropina:  Yes, David +1

  Tatiana Tropina:  I think it's a pretty well elaborated section.

  David McAuley (RySG):  No issues here as fine tuned

  Greg Shatan:  I can only offer New York nuances.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  An interpretation shorter than the legal text is something especially valuable :  -)

  Andrew Mack:  seems very clear

  David McAuley (RySG):  None here

  Tatiana Tropina:  Not that much choice of nuances.... Matt is not on the call to call him for reading.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  NYC accent has always a special colour - as from the movies...

  David McAuley (RySG):  Jorge +1

  Tatiana Tropina:  We can record an audio book from the transcripts :  -)

  Tatiana Tropina:  like "Best from Greg"

  David McAuley (RySG):  The language is inelegant but in bylaws as I recall

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  it is very much like the Bylaws text - I'll defer to native speakers here...

  Andrew Mack:  of a party against others sounds best

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  Agree to the last intervention of Grec

  Tatiana Tropina:  Actually yes. We actually didn't lose this piece in the beginning, it was lost when we redrafted multiple times

  Andrew Mack:  against any other party

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  agree Andrew this text needs a redraft

  Kavouss Arasteh 2:  One part againt another party or parties

  Niels ten Oever 2:  This part of the bylaw draws the clear line between “respect” for human rights as a Core Value and any attempt to extend the Bylaw into requiring ICANN to enforce the human rights obligations of ICANN or any other party against other parties.

  David McAuley (RySG):  taking hand down, I agree with Greg

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  yup

  Tatiana Tropina:  Yes I agree

  Andrew Mack:  party, party, party... now I'm confused (and thirsty)

  David McAuley (RySG):  that sounds fine

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  meNew text has a yes frok

  Greg Shatan:  (You've got to fight for your right to) party.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  the main interpretative element in the FoI excerpt is the difference between "respect" and "enforce" - the rest should align with the Bylaw text

  David McAuley (RySG):  congratulations to drafting (and reading) team

  Tatiana Tropina:  oh thanks a lot to all!

  Greg Shatan:  This calls for a party.  And  other parties.

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  excellent progress thanks

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  party in Guadalajara I heard? Niels is inviting?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  Greg :  -)

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg, Jorge, since we already learnt how to argue with each other, shall we volunteer for the next piece? ;-)

  Niels ten Oever 2:  https:  //

  Tatiana Tropina:  aha we are voluntold by default hehehehehehe

  Greg Shatan:  Glutton for punishment, Tatiana?

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg, have long term record of that :  D

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  please let do Drafting Team

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Next week some of us are at the IGF... little time for this new step... but may be we could have some talk there?

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  good point Cheryl

  avri doria:  some of us just tend to withdraw from competition.

  Greg Shatan:  Go, Team.

  Tatiana Tropina:  Jorge, sure. We won't have Greg there though. But I am sure Matt and I can grab coffee... and Dial Greg in :  -)

  Greg Shatan:  The turtle is green also.

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  let's conspire without Greg ;P

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg... you had a nice small green turtle :  D

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  be a great ending to the year

  Greg Shatan:  On the next flight to Guadalajara, then!!!

  Greg Shatan:  I wish.

  Tatiana Tropina:  oh uh now we will be chased by the chair at the IGF - he strives to move things forward so no quite days

  Tatiana Tropina:  *quiet

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  the IGF will be anything but quiet...

  Tatiana Tropina:  :  -)

  Greg Shatan:  Leon will be buying drinks in Guadalajara!

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  Leon:   round of tequilas for us?

  Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):  thanks all great progress... talk soon then bye for now

  Tatiana Tropina:  Greg, jump on the next flight!

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  we'll send you some up to NYC, Greg!

  avri doria:  bye

  David McAuley (RySG):  Thanks all, good bye

  Tatiana Tropina:  thanks all, bye!

  Andrew Mack:  cheers

  Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):  thanks all and bye!


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