Sub-group Members: Asha Hemrajani, Avri Doria, Carlos Vera, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Chris LaHatte, Farzaneh Badii, Herb Waye, John Poole, Klaus Stoll, Michael Karanicolas, Sebastien Bachollet. (11)
Observers: Taylor RW Bentley. (1)
Staff: Alice Jansen, Bernard Turcotte, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry, Laena Rahim, Yvette Guigneaux. (4)
Apologies: Alberto Soto, Susan Payne. (2)
** If your name is missing from attendance or apology, please send note to acct-staff@icann.org **
Transcript
Recording
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p1ucg2en426/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/accountability/ccwg-accountability-ombudsman-26sep16-en.mp3
Agenda
WS2 Ombudsman Subgroup Meeting #8 |
13:00 UTC | Monday, 26 September
Roll call – Welcome – Opening remarks
Feed-Back from the WS2 plenary (Sept 20, 2016) and prep of the next WS2 plenary (Oct 4, 2016)
Exchange with the Transparency DT (Michael Karanicolas)
Discussion of the following items from the document
Stress Tests with Steve DelBianco and CLO
ATRT2 – review of the office
ATRT2 – ICANN employees
PTI
Next meeting #9 – Oct 3, 2016
Notes
WS2 Ombudsman Subgroup Meeting #8 | 13:00 UTC | Monday, 26 September
(including relevant portions of the chat):
Roll call – Welcome – Opening remarks
- Sebastien Bachollet: Review of agenda - no objections. 11 participants at start of call.
Feed-Back from the WS2 plenary (Sept 20, 2016) and prep of the next WS2 plenary (Oct 4, 2016)
- Sebastien Bachollet: unfortunately, there was no time available for input from this group.
Exchange with the Transparency DT (Michael Karanicolas)
- Michael Karanicolas: There seems to be much overlap between our work in these groups. When there are issues with the transparency the Ombudsman is the key element in oversight. (presentation of slide) Evaluate Ombudsman independence and competency for these other roles. Independence, powers and expertise. Requesting authority from the Board prior to starting an investigation could be an issue? Expanding the Ombudsman role to be more pro-active to promote transparency internally and externally. Promotion of the Ombuds office. role of Ombudsman vs. Human Rights. Would like ICANN transparency to be more like government vs private industry.
- Herb Waye: Good points and key for me is formality vs informality. A commissioner is another role.
- Farzaneh Badii: I am in doubt of pro active role of ombudsman (bullet point 4). Agree with HW.
- Michael Karanicolas: formal vs informal roles for Ombudsman is an argument we hear often. This can be a false argument - having formal powers can give the Ombudsman informal processes more weight. Cost is a fair consideration and should be looked at. Voice of the people vs watchdog? again fair question but we have to ask the question if ICANN needs a watchdog.
- Chris LaHatte: note that Ombuds only needs board consent where there is an own motion investigation, but otherwise no need for consent for a complaint from community
- Herb Waye Ombuds: Ombuds should promote diversity, ethical behaviour, human rights, and fairness.
- Chris LaHatte: also note that Ombuds has full access to all documents, so can review any DIDP in any event with existing powers
- Herb Waye: Re watchdog role - let us remember we have the independent review - would it not be worth discussion this with them? relative to requesting permission from the Board - for the record we have never been refused permission. It is more advising the Board vs requesting permission and could be reviewed.
- Michael Karanicolas: Hm - I hadn't realized the Ombudsman could move forward independently. Thanks very much for clarifying.
- Asha Hemrajani: Good points from MK. I note that the Ombudsman has access to all documents internally. Also note that a mediation skill would be important for the Ombudsman. Like the idea of the Ombudsman promoting his services more widely.
- Michael Karanicolas: @Farzaneh, I think he means that for the board to refuse the Ombudsman's request to open an investigation would be a very controversial thing.
- Michael Karanicolas: The power to say no is there, but that for them to use it would attract a lot of negative attention.
- Herb Waye Ombuds: Yes relationship with Board is very good and positive, it is not controversial in any way. We all have ICANN and community best interests in mind
- Michael Karanicolas: Sure - that would be
- Sbastien Bachollet: thanks to MK for his presentation. We can arrange to have someone from our group participate in the Transparency meetings if requested.
- Farzaneh Badii: can the Ombudsman move on an investigation without a complaint?
- Herb Waye: On systemic issues we can move forward without actually having a complainant - but we need to advise the Board - unfortunately the Bylaws say approval from the Board. We have to report to the Board with the results.
- Ahsa Hemrajani: MK what point would be your priority?
- Michael Karanicolas: Examine specific role of the Ombudsman vs DIDP appeals - and need to understand the exact role of the IRP in ICANN. Also what is the role of the Ombudsman in appeals processes and if they are equipped for doing this.
Discussion of the following items from the document
- (not discussed)
Stress Tests with Steve DelBianco and CLO
- Cheryl Langdon-Orr: Little to say about Stress Tests and the Ombudsman. There are only two ST13 and 34 (presentation of these). Questions?
- Herb Waye: On ST34 it is important to bring balance to the smaller groups going forward. There are some structures in place that restrict participation.
ATRT2 – review of the office
- Sebastien Bachollet: Still waiting on response from the Board to the letter from the CCWG-Accountability. Avri Doria any new inputs?
- Avri Doria: No new information from Board. We may not need to wait and perform a gap analysis.
- Asha Hemrajani: Will check with Board on the status of the Board response.
ATRT2 – ICANN employees
- (not discussed)
PTI
- Sebastien Bachollet: let us look at the response from ICANN Legal.
- Herb Waye: Memo clearly states that PTI clients can have recourse to the Ombudsman.
- Sebastien Bachollet: are we satisfied with this response? How do we deal with anything that is not names related?
Next meeting #9 – Oct 3, 2016
Documents Presented
Chat Transcript
Yvette Guigneaux: Welcome to the WS2 Ombudsman Subgroup Meeting #8 | 13:00 UTC | Monday, 26 September
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:hi all;
Chris LaHatte:hi
Klaus Stoll:Hi,!. Sorry that I missed so many calls.. It just happened.
Herb Waye Ombuds:Hello everyone... well adobe was not very nice to me this morning
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:nor I
Avri Doria:on ATRT2, did i ever send this URL for the list of excerpts? https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_118wC-2DT6KUVOGusT378HBv4AeolU6d1Wi1NP-2D85YvqH8_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DQICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=xjNMRR-fjlgBx7tqUEv8lZv2O9RJyMyqWkymcecegCUuwDxFVsW6VBuvkqKnS_lk&m=ebCCFpCPenGrqGUBETW9Ga5kqU53Q-oUNnZRmaqbC2M&s=6L2eQWXW611h8k8HD22o9cGuYqgHnQVIiAkFEM7Le70&e=
Asha Hemrajani:Hello all
Michael Karanicolas:Hi - sorry I'm late.
Asha Hemrajani:Staff, adobe is not dialling out to me.
Asha Hemrajani:Could I get someone to dial me in?
Yvette Guigneaux 2:will do Asha, what is your number?
Michael Karanicolas:sorry - mic pronlems
Farzaneh Badii:I am in doubt of pro active role of ombudsman ( bullet point 4)
Farzaneh Badii:I think these tasks are too ambitious for ombudsman
Farzaneh Badii:I agree Herb
Chris LaHatte:note that Ombuds only needs board consent where there is an own motion investigation, but otherwise no need for consent for a complaint from community
Herb Waye Ombuds:Ombuds should promote diversity, ethical behaviour, human rights, and fairness.
Chris LaHatte:also note that Ombuds has full access to all documents, so can review any DIDP in any event with existing powers
Farzaneh Badii:yes but through coming up with resolutions I believe.. not to have an advocacy role
Carlos Vera .. Ecuador:Saludos desde Ecuador
Michael Karanicolas:Yes - of course, Chris, well noted. I should have been clearer in that bullet.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:time check - 30 minutes left in the call
Michael Karanicolas:Sure - that's an interesting idea. I think there needs to be more consideration about the interaction and interplay between the role of the IRP and the role of the Ombudsman.
Carlos Vera .. Ecuador:Where can we find some details on the structure of the Ombudsman Offices?
Michael Karanicolas:Hm - I hadn't realized the Ombudsman could move forward independently. Thanks very much for clarifying.
Herb Waye Ombuds:@ michael, if they ever said no, and I can't imagine it happening, there would be a lot of noise
Farzaneh Badii:sorry I didn't understand. what do you mean it can move forward independently?
Michael Karanicolas:Yes, I see what you're saying @Herb, your point is well taken.
Michael Karanicolas:@Farzaneh, I think he means that for the board to refuse the Ombudsman's request to open an investiation would be a very controversial thing.
Michael Karanicolas:The power to say no is there, but that for them to use it would attract a lot of negative attention.
Herb Waye Ombuds:Yes relationship with Board is very good and positive, it is not controversial in any way. We all have ICANN and community best interests in mind
Michael Karanicolas:Sure - that would be excellent.
Herb Waye Ombuds:yes excellent idea, I asked to be added to your list, I will check again so I can participate
Michael Karanicolas:Yes - would really be interested in your inputs, @Herb, as we move to develop recommendations. Would be invaluable to hear your thoughts.
Asha Hemrajani:Staff: the notes are incorrect - it was Farzaneh who asked this question
Michael Karanicolas:And of course - anyone else is welcome to join as well :)
Farzaneh Badii:thanks. I need to know more about this. Herb, based on what criteria can you start a investigation on your own? is it in the bylaws?
Chris LaHatte:own motion is in the Ombuds bylaw
Avri Doria:i thought it was explained, if they see something systemic.
Farzaneh Badii:what is systematic? thanks Ill look into this
Herb Waye Ombuds:No Fazaneh there is nothing specific in the bylaws, such as a list, if the office recieves a mass of complaints regarding one issue, or something systemically is pointed out then the Ombuds has the jurisdiction to act
Farzaneh Badii:we have to be careful with expanding ombudsman role.
Sebastien (ALAC):@Farzy Systemic not systematic
Farzaneh Badii:thanks Seb
Avri Doria:i think that the characterizatio that they 'never heard any complaints'is an exageration, most even if none of the complaints have resulted in a formal investigation. or even if they have but the systemic issue was not dealt with in that action.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:Time check - 15 minutes left
Farzaneh Badii:I have to leave now
Farzaneh Badii:another meeting. bye everyone
Michael Karanicolas:I also have to run - but thanks for a wonderful chat everyone!
Asha Hemrajani:Cheryl you sound very muffled
Cheryl Langdon-Orr 2:sorry about the audio hope it improved
Cheryl Langdon-Orr 2:great Herb...
Cheryl Langdon-Orr 2:look fwd to seeing the ombuds progress in that ;-)
Klaus Stoll:Great Herb. NPOC will be happy to hear from you!
Herb Waye Ombuds:thanis Cheryl, I will need people like you opening doors for me :-)
Herb Waye Ombuds:Excellent Klaus
Klaus Stoll:Just get in touch and we will get things going
Herb Waye Ombuds:I will Klaus
Herb Waye Ombuds:Thanks Sebastien
Asha Hemrajani:Thank you all.
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:bye all
Klaus Stoll:Bye all!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr 2:thx bye foer now
Herb Waye Ombuds:ciao
Avri Doria:bye, thanks
Cheryl Langdon-Orr 2:for now bye
Carlos Vera .. Ecuador:thank you
Carlos Vera .. Ecuador:hope some info on my question
Carlos Vera .. Ecuador:cveraq@gmail.com
