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Sub-group Members:   Agustina Callegari, Alain Bidron, Avri Doria, Barbara Wanner, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Finn Petersen, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Jeff Neuman, Jyoti Panday, Kavouss Arasteh, Mary Uduma, Matthew Shears, Mike Silber, Milton Mueller, Paul McGrady, Pedro da Silva, Philip Corwin, Rafael Perez Galindo, Robin Gross, Simon Jansson, Sonigitu Ekpe, Steve Metalitz, Tatiana Tropina, Tom Dale, Vinay Kesari   (28)

Observers:  Chris Hemmerlein, Iren Borissova   (2)

Staff:  Bernie Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Karen Mulberry, Elizabeth Andrews


**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**




• Welcome

• Meeting Time(s)

• Working Methods

• Timeline

• Work Plan and Schedule Overview

• Discussion Items

• Staff Paper

• Subgroup Comments

• Topic Definition and Scope

• Other Inputs (aside from Staff Paper)

• Work Plan, Schedule, Deliverable



Welcome (Greg Shatan)

Meeting Time

  • Greg Shatan:
    • One 1-hour meeting per week
    • Doodle poll results considered, but not dispositive
    • Proposal: Balanced rotation
    • Alternating meetings at 1900 and 1300
    • No objections for the moment – we can revisit at a later date.

Working Methods

  • Vinay Kesari: (presentation of the slide)
  • Kavous Arasteh: Not happy with 1900UTC slot.
  • Milton Mueller: do we really need to meet once per week?
  • Greg Shatan: Seems optiomal.


  • Greg Shatan: (presentation of slide). We have a complex topic and will not be completed in the short term.

Work Plan and Schedule Overview

  • Greg Shatan: (presentation of slide) – Should be presenting final product to the CCWG in February.
  • Vinay Kesari: Hi Jeff, we didn't want to assume everyone was familiar since it's entirely possible there are participants who are new to the process as a whole
  • David McAuley (RySG): We need to discuss process - it seems fair when the whole group is together and a good place to start. We have a general guide in WS1 final report.
  • Matthew Shears: I see this as a necessary first step - as Vinay says not everyone may have had the "benefit" of particpatiing in the CCWGs etc.
  • Milton Mueller: "no plan, no guidelione, no vision. perhaps it is planned to do nothing" - join the nihilist caucus!
  • Kavouss Arasteh: We are not on the same page. Grec suggesting or submitting his own views without consulting us.

Discussion Items

  • Staff Paper
    • Greg Shatan: will skip given we cannot present it and we started late because of the technical issues.
  • Topic Definition and Scope
    • Kavous Arateh: timing issues
    • David McAuley: We should get suggestions on a workplan for the next month.
    • Paul McGrady: echo DM.
    • Milton Mueller: Cannot understand some people’s issues with the staff paper. Can we get some insight here?
    • Greg Shatan: For all those who have not please have a look at the google doc to have discussions on the list.
  • Other Inputs (aside from Staff Paper)
    • (not covered)
  • Work Plan, Schedule, Deliverable
    • Greg Shatan: Next call will be September 8th 1300UTC.
    • AOB
      • Greg Shatan: Adjourned.

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:hi all

  kavouss arasteh:Bernard

  kavouss arasteh:Good day

  Tatiana Tropina:Hi all

  kavouss arasteh:Do we have anotzher meeting at this same time 19,00 UTC

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:All please remember to mute if you are not speaking

  Alain Bidron:hello all

  kavouss arasteh:Pls advise to dial me up

  David McAuley (RySG):Hi Bernie, I am 4154

  Tatiana Tropina:is there anything already? The phone bridge is playing music.

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:All Adobe is misbehaving - so we may run a little late

  Greg Shatan:No other meetings of this subgroup are scheduled yet.  We will discuss scheduling today.


  Tatiana Tropina:the music thing is quite annoying :(

  David McAuley (RySG):Can we get Greg on saxaphone instead of this music

  kavouss arasteh:wHAT MUSIC

  Tatiana Tropina:Yes, agree! Greg and saxophone.

  kavouss arasteh:i AM NOT CONNECTED

  David McAuley (RySG):I am connected Kavouss and we are heaing music at present

  Tatiana Tropina:or at least this calling centre shall change their playlist. This one is quite depressing :)

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:on music - yes

  Tatiana Tropina:sigh.

  Greg Shatan:@Tatiana, it should come with a trigger warning.

  Milton Mueller:I can hear someone typing away

  Jeff Neuman:I hear typing as well

  Milton Mueller:might want to mute your mic

  David McAuley (RySG):I cannot hear typing

  Tatiana Tropina:Milton, even typing is better than this piece of music.

  Farzaneh Badii:it goes well with the music

  Milton Mueller:ha ha Tatiana I am not sure

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:All - reminder that Adobe is seriously misbehaving and we are working on it - but cannot start the call this instant

  Greg Shatan:Karen, some of us seem to be on hold, listening to bad music.

  kavouss arasteh:Grec

  Farzaneh Badii:elevator music

  Jeff Neuman:The Adobe room is playing the music

  Milton Mueller:El Greco

  Avri Doria:are we in an elevator together

  David McAuley (RySG):ah, hear some talk on adobe but not on phone -

  kavouss arasteh:I wish to attend your meeting but not yet connected

  Farzaneh Badii:yep and seems like we are not reaching our floor!

  Pedro da Silva [GAC Brasil]:Karen or Bernard, I sent an email earlier today asking for a dial out,, is this still going to happen?

  kavouss arasteh:I am sorry

  kavouss arasteh:What is going on?

  kavouss arasteh:I am not yet connected

  Tatiana Tropina:oh a new piece of music started after the pause. I was hoping that the pause meant we get connected.

  Milton Mueller:you must be connected somewhat, Kavouss, I can see you chat

  Farzaneh Badii:Kavouss, you are connected and I can hear you

  kavouss arasteh:I am not connected on audio

  David McAuley (RySG):wow - now can hear

  Tatiana Tropina:oh wonderful

  Milton Mueller:sounds like Greg. Greg made the music stop!

  Tatiana Tropina:human voices, finally. Feels liberaitng.

  Milton Mueller:all hail Greg

  kavouss arasteh:Karen

  Berry Cobb:Hi Tom, please mute your mic.  We can hear you type.

  kavouss arasteh:Pls advise to call me

  Tom Dale (ACIG GAC Secretariat):Sorry

  Pedro da Silva [GAC Brasil]:I also need a dial out :-)

  Barbara Wanner:Brenda, I am the extension ending 3155. Thanks!

  Vinay Kesari:Hi all

  David McAuley (RySG):and i am extension 4154

  Milton Mueller:hello Vinay

  Pedro da Silva [GAC Brasil]:Hi, Vinay

  Vinay Kesari:Hi Milton, Pedro :)

  David McAuley (RySG):typist please mute

  David McAuley (RySG):a balanced rotation seems fair

  Pedro da Silva [GAC Brasil]:+1 David

  Milton Mueller:I thought we had settled this on the list

  Avri Doria:i think all groups should rotate among the 3 times, but i do not really care.

  Berry Cobb:Kavouss, please mute your mic.  

  kavouss arasteh:I am on mute

  Jyoti Panday:kavouss is like every indian grandfather ever

  Milton Mueller:hahaha

  Milton Mueller:grumpy old guy

  Farzaneh Badii:I am actually having dinner!

  Avri Doria:that is why i think it best to just mechaniscally rotate among all 3 times.

  Farzaneh Badii:a nice salad with shrimps!

  Jeff Neuman:I am just havig lunch

  Avri Doria:all times are unpleasant for at least some.

  kavouss arasteh:I do not understand why after two years of being dialed still the secretariat asking what number i am

  matthew shears:unpleasantness should be shared

  kavouss arasteh:aVRI

  David McAuley (RySG):Fair question Milton


  Philip Corwin:What is the Legal Committee's expected turnaround time for considerng requests for outside legal expertise? No more than a week maximum, I would hope.

  Milton Mueller:The default, or the fault?

  kavouss arasteh:19,00 hours should not be used by every body

  kavouss arasteh:We need to distribute the time

  Mike Silber:Mathew, it seems some are intent on doing just that

  kavouss arasteh:12,00 HOUR IS ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE

  Tatiana Tropina:agree with Greg

  Farzaneh Badii:no I think we should meet once a week

  Milton Mueller:We do have a mail list

  Tatiana Tropina:from other DT's work it seems that once per week is optimal

  Farzaneh Badii:it's a lot of work

  Pedro da Silva [GAC Brasil]:Agree with Greg and Farzaneh...once a week

  Avri Doria:some are meeting every other week.  really up to the group.

  Milton Mueller:For the record, I still do not agree, have not heard any work-based requirement for weekly meetings

  Tatiana Tropina:it's a comlex topic. I think once a week is optiomal, hopefully not more

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:please lower your hand if you no longer need to speak

  matthew shears:perhaps as we get to the substance we can assess the frequency of the calls

  David McAuley (RySG):OK, sounds fair, once a week

  Tatiana Tropina:it's a first call this is why we have no plan yet

  Tatiana Tropina:but even the email list trafic already shows it might get complex

  Tatiana Tropina:if that's not enough as a proof I don't know what is.

  Milton Mueller:Matt: that is reasonable. We are talking about subgroups and meeting times without any concrete notion of what we are actually doing

  Jyoti Panday:+1 matthew

  Milton Mueller:I'd be happy to meet once a week if we have a specific task and deadline that requires it

  kavouss arasteh:mILTON + 1


  Jeff Neuman:I was hoping a little less process on this call and someone framing the issues we are supposed to be working on.  I was not heavily involved in this issue before (WS1) I am a newbie on the substance.

  Jeff Neuman:But have heard this process speech a number of times :)

  kavouss arasteh:Jeff, what speech?

  Jeff Neuman:How subgroups work; How Ws2 works, etc

  Jeff Neuman:Greg....doing ok so far

  kavouss arasteh:I am sorry to say that there seems to be no plan, no guidelione, no vision. perhaps it is planned to do nothing

  Vinay Kesari:Hi Jeff, we didn't want to assume everyone was familiar since it's entirely possible there are participants who are new to the process as a whole

  David McAuley (RySG):We need to discuss process - it seems fair when the whole group is together and a good place to start. We have a general guide in WS1 final report.

  matthew shears:I see this as a necessary first step - as Vinay says not everyone may have had the "benefit" of particpatiing in the CCWGs etc.

  Milton Mueller:"no plan, no guidelione, no vision. perhaps it is planned to do nothing" - join the nihilist caucus!

  kavouss arasteh:We are not on the same page. Grec suggesting or submitting his own views without consulting us

  Jeff Neuman:Its my understanding that Greg is just repeating what WS2 leadership has decided in terms of timeframes and deliverables

  kavouss arasteh:It seems to me that it is planned to do nothing on jurisdiction

  Mike Silber:Milton - is that a Tom Lehrer song?

  Jeff Neuman:At this point it is a little abstract because we do not have the issues completely scoped out yet or a work plan

  Milton Mueller:no, the lyrics are by Kavouss

  Milton Mueller:I agree with you Jeff, this is heavy on process and short on substance.

  Mike Silber:I thought it may be a follow on to. the Masochism Tango

  Tatiana Tropina:Mike :D :D :D

  Mike Silber:maybe that is the masochism conference call

  Milton Mueller:And you are all masochists, which is why you supported weekly meetings

  kavouss arasteh:Grec, you need to submit your idea to the CCWG pLENARY,

  Tatiana Tropina:well it's moderately masochistic, I remember some "better" calls


  Jyoti Panday:get to substance

  Avri Doria:not masochists, just obedient puppies

  Farzaneh Badii:Jyoti, what substance?

  Tatiana Tropina:hm, masochists sound much better, @Avri.

  Milton Mueller:Yes, yes skip it

  kavouss arasteh:Grec, you may be right or otherwise, the whole groupè must agree with your proposed schedule

  Farzaneh Badii:Kavouss, but this is not Grec's proposed  schedule.

  Jeff Neuman:how about going over what WS1 said about this topic

  Jyoti Panday:farzi i meant topics and scope

  Farzaneh Badii:oh we are gonna talk about that? I thought that moment would never come.

  Jyoti Panday:it is here now

  Jyoti Panday:drumroll

  Jeff Neuman:Can we review WS1's comments on this topic?

  Jeff Neuman:So we have a baseline

  Farzaneh Badii:I agree Jeff

  Mike Silber:I agree with the non-Grec timeline

  matthew shears:I think that the timeline has come from the CCWG - yeah like Greg says

  Paul McGrady:I would prefer going over what WS1 had to say about this, rather than engaging in brainstorming which could lead us out of scope.

  kavouss arasteh:David+ 1

  matthew shears:agree David for so long as those suggestions are within scope

  matthew shears:exactly

  Tatiana Tropina:David well said +1

  Rafael Perez Galindo (GAC_SPAIN):+1 Paul, that is why we should kick off discussions on the sole basis of the text agreed in WS1 verbatim, which is the one that enjoys consensus. And build upon that.

  Farzaneh Badii:+1

  Jyoti Panday:+1

  Paul McGrady:Can we have the 4 bullet points up?

  Jeff Neuman:Can someone insert the link to the google doc here

  Tatiana Tropina:

  Jeff Neuman:thx!

  Rafael Perez Galindo (GAC_SPAIN):Sorry no mike at home

  David McAuley (RySG):That was quick Tatiana

  Tatiana Tropina:have opened so can react quickly :)

  Rafael Perez Galindo (GAC_SPAIN):I am ok with the first part of the text now that Greg has added the text from WS1 report

  Milton Mueller:OK. I have the doc open too

  Paul McGrady:I apologize, I don't know exactly what 4 bullet points are being discussed.  Can they be posted?

  Milton Mueller:Paul

  Milton Mueller:clikc on the Google doc link above

  Tatiana Tropina:

  Tatiana Tropina:posting again

  Farzaneh Badii:Perhaps, ICANN staff can display it in adobe?

  Tatiana Tropina:they have to download it I think and then upload here

  Paul McGrady:Thanks MM.  I see it now.  One of the bullet points was deleted on the Google doc version, so I ignored the deletion to get me to 4 instead of 3.  :)

  Paul McGrady:Thanks!

  Milton Mueller:Repeating what  I said on mic, is there anything these points about scope would exclude, or not encompass, that you think we should be talking about

  Farzaneh Badii:echo

  David McAuley (RySG):bad echo

  Avri Doria:it is like i am in a dream gone wrong

  Jyoti Panday:ha ha

  Milton Mueller:LOL

  Rafael Perez Galindo (GAC_SPAIN)::)

  Mary Uduma:Very bad audio

  Sonigitu Ekpe:so much echo

  Paul McGrady:Keeping in mind that Greg is a volunteer too.

  Avri Doria:Grec volunteered.  No one twisted his arm?

  Paul McGrady:OK.  He is a voluntold.  

  Milton Mueller:I admit it. I twisted his arm

  Milton Mueller:but he beegged me to, he's a masochist

  Farzaneh Badii:so are we gonna come up with a workplan as well?

  Rafael Perez Galindo (GAC_SPAIN):I would like to know whether this text has been prepared by ICANN legal staff. I am inclined to think so because at least in the last paragrpah it contains legal language and legal affirmations, concerns "(however likely or unlikely that outcome might be)" and warnings ("would not.." "would continue"...) that could preempt discussions, that have not been agreed upon, and that in no way belong in a background text that should only include facts and history... they constitute an input, a contribution, and not a valid basis for discussions.  

  Mike Silber:beware of Grecs bearing gifts

  David McAuley (RySG):what date is thursday

  matthew shears:Can a series of pointers be listed at the begining of the google doc as what you would like us to comment on?

  kavouss arasteh:why not 12,00 hours

  steve metalitz:Thursday or Friday at this time?

  matthew shears:and what you would like intputs on?

  Paul McGrady:9th is much better than 8th

  Milton Mueller:why not 12,0000,000, hours

  Avri Doria:12 hours is not one of the WS2 assigned time tracks.

  David McAuley (RySG):1300 utc

  Farzaneh Badii:Thursday? hmm have to look at SOAC accountability schedule

  David McAuley (RySG):This was the dreaded but necessary process-oriented first meeting, IMO, - there will be plenty to discuss in the coming weeks I suspect

  Tatiana Tropina:dreaded :)

  Paul McGrady:Thanks Greg.  Good kickoff call.

  Vinay Kesari:Thank you David, I agree :)

  Jyoti Panday:thanks Greg and Vinay

  Tatiana Tropina:Thanks Greg and Vinay

  Avri Doria:i was a wonderful liveley meeting.  thank you so very much for the invitation.

  Milton Mueller:is that a promise Greg?

  David McAuley (RySG):Thank you chairs, staff and all

  Bernard Turcotte Staff Support:thanks all, apologies for the technical diff. bye

  Tatiana Tropina:bye all!

  Farzaneh Badii:thanks . bye

  Jyoti Panday:bye

  Erich Schweighofer:Thanks, bye.

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