Sub-group Members:   Aarti Bhavana, Andrew Mack, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Bastiaan Goslings, Brett Schaefer, Chris LaHatte, Daniel Appelman, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Hibah Hussain, John Curran, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Markus Kummer, Matthew Shears, Niels ten Oever, Nigel Roberts, Pär Brumark, Paul McGrady, Paul Twomey, Rachel Pollack, Raoul Plommer, Robin Gross, Rudi Daniel, Shreedeep Rayamajhi, Tatiana Tropina, Tijani Ben Jemaa, Vicky Sheckler   (33)

Observers:  Agustine Callegari, Iren Borissova, Isabel Rutherfurd, Jaifa Mezher, Lee Hibbard, Ryan Carroll, Sonigitu Ekpe, Steven Metalitz, Taylor Bentley   (9)

Staff:  Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Karen Mulberry, Mandy Carver, Nathalie Vergnolle, Samantha Eisner


**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**




1. Administrative

2. Opening Remarks

3. Scope and purpose as outlined by WS1

4. Proposed Time line

5. Questions to answer 

6. Meetings

7. Workplan

8. AOB

Notes & Action Items

 Action Item:

1. Start work by capturing risks and unintended consequences taking into account the work from WS1. - small group to be lead by Paul Twomey

2. Document the Human rights discussion, agreements and work from WS1 - Lead by Sonigitu, with Niels, Greg, David and Tatiana

3. Work using Google docs this week and will reconsider at next meeting

Documents Presented

Chat Transcript

Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to Human Rights  WS2 Subgroup Meeting #1 on 16 August 2016 @ 19:00 UTC!

  Nigel Roberts:Welcome everybody!

  Sonigitu Ekpe:Hello all,

  Kavouss Arasteh:Hi dear Brenda

  Niels ten Oever:Hello all

  Kavouss Arasteh:What we can do without you

  Kavouss Arasteh:What we can do without you`

  Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Nigel

  Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Niel

  John Laprise:Good afternoon all

  Markus Kummer:Hi everyone

  Brett Schaefer:Kavouss, your microphone is on.

  Kavouss Arasteh:Tks

  Kavouss Arasteh:It is now offm

  Paul Twomey:Hullo everyone

  Rachel Pollack:Thanks, Niel. There seems to be an echo

  Kavouss Arasteh:there is some echo

  Niels ten Oever:I think the echo is due to someone not having muted their microphone

  rudi daniel:Good Day all :)

  Kavouss Arasteh:May I request the co.- chairs to kindly give us a brief presentation of the matter

  Kavouss Arasteh:How many meetings we will have

  Kavouss Arasteh:Howlong lasts erach meeting

  David McAuley:Hi Brenda, I am 4154

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue):Hi all!

  Kavouss Arasteh:Timing of meeting

  Niels ten Oever:It's all on the agenda Kavouss

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Hi all!

  Kavouss Arasteh:fixed or rotatable

  Kavouss Arasteh:What time management is forseen to discuss each topics and infact how many topics we have to discuss

  Tatiana Tropina:hi all

  Kavouss Arasteh:That we will not decide at a gien meeting and may be decision could even go to third meetingz

  Kavouss Arasteh:What is the time limit for each intervention

  Kavouss Arasteh:The second intervention must be shorter

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):we need a short-hand for this group's name :-)

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):apologies from Mark Carvell

  Kavouss Arasteh:No speaker should be abraptly interrupted if he or she made a lengthy intervention the chair should kindly remind her or him to be brief and conclude

  Aarti Bhavana:Hi All!

  David McAuley:My phone number is showing but I am on adobe

  Aarti Bhavana:Can we please get scroll control for the presentation?

  Nigel Roberts:2862 is Nigel Roberts

  Kavouss Arasteh:what is 2862?

  Kavouss Arasteh:Is this meeting is readed

  Kavouss Arasteh:recorded

  Tatiana Tropina:it is recorded

  Kavouss Arasteh:Nigel, you have a radiophonic voice , suitable for new announcer7 Jounaliost

  Kavouss Arasteh:Radio announcer

  Nigel Roberts:Thank you Kavous. Did you already read my background?

  Kavouss Arasteh:You have sent severals which one pls?

  Nigel Roberts:Wikipedia will assist ;-)

  Tatiana Tropina:not to protect.

  Tatiana Tropina:that was about other issues.

  Paul McGrady:I think we lost our speaker

  Tatiana Tropina:no sound

  Rachel Pollack:yes

  John Laprise:yep

  Greg Shatan:Nigel Roberts: Before joing Radio Caroline in September 1985, Nigel had been heard on the Voice of Peace and Irish pirate stations Southside, Sunshine and ABC Tramore. His nickname on the ship was “Baghwan”. With a taste for heavy rock music, he mainly broadcast on the ‘Caroline Overdrive’ service. Nigel moved on in June 1986 and ran a second-hand record shop in London and broadcast on the Rock Radio Network as ‘Skull’.

  Lee Hibbard:yes\

  Paul Twomey:yes

  rudi daniel:yes

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Re: SOI - As dsiclosed on the list, I represent the Pascau Yaqui Tribe of Arizona and our firm represents the Navajo and other Indian tribes.  This is mentioned because I asked that the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples be added to this exploration of the Framework of Interpretation for Human Rights.

  David McAuley:Niels - we lost you for a good two minutes

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Niels: we lost you for a while...

  Niels ten Oever:You lost me?

  steve metalitz:@Niels, your audio dropped for about a minute.

  David McAuley:we hear you now

  John Laprise:we do now

  Greg Shatan:Yes

  Niels ten Oever:Am i back now?

  Tatiana Tropina:yes you are back

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):yes

  Rachel Pollack:yes, now back

  Paul Twomey:end of page 6

  Tatiana Tropina:On the "anything missing"

  Nigel Roberts:LOL @Greg that one is not me

  Greg Shatan:There are two of you?

  Tatiana Tropina:Nigel, how comes, I was so impressed :D

  Tatiana Tropina:multiple personality :)

  Tatiana Tropina:(I didn't say "disorder")

  Nigel Roberts:It's a common name like John Smith

  David McAuley:please mute if not speaking

  Tatiana Tropina:A lot of background noise :(

  Greg Shatan:Sounds like Pirate Radio to me.

  Rachel Pollack:FOI is confusing with freedom of information -- just for me?

  Andrew Mack:a phone ringing

  Greg Shatan:How's this: He was a Board Director (Council Member) of the Radio Society of Great Britain between 1991 and 1996 and is a DJ/radio presenter with Channel Islands community local radio station QUAY-FM.

  Kavouss Arasteh:There are some  noise from tiome to time

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):lost Niels again

  David McAuley:Niels - we are losing you

  Tatiana Tropina:lost Niels again.

  Niels ten Oever:Lost me still?

  Raoul Plommer:I hear him

  Nigel Roberts:I hear him fine

  John Laprise:you're back

  Nigel Roberts:I hear Kavouss

  Nigel Roberts:Greg found the right one now

  Tatiana Tropina:so we have two co-chair who have radio in their biography :) as far as I remember, Niels was building radio stations

  Niels ten Oever:Please come in Paul

  John Laprise:Disagree w/Kavous: We should be ambitious. It's the Internet. It's that important.

  Tatiana Tropina:Good point, Paul.

  Kavouss Arasteh:your voice is distorted

  Sonigitu Ekpe 2:Please I need some clarification on human rights, access, standards and quality.

  Tatiana Tropina:Absoultely - may be we can even create an additional doc for this?

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:indeed a good point paul

  Daniel Appelman:As a baseline for our work, we need to discuss and reach some consensus on which human rights are relevant for ICANN's human rights framework

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:the basic standard is a must

  Tatiana Tropina:Paul, +1 to eveything. Excellent intervention

  Rachel Pollack:yes

  Greg Shatan:I am opposed to cherry-picking human rights.

  Jaifa Mezher:yes

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, you can write it inthe doc :)

  Nigel Roberts:Daniele: Baseline is, from my personal persepective ECHR Arts 8 & 10 and Art 1 of Protocol 1

  David McAuley:To me baseline is making sure we respond to, comply with, final report of WS1.

  Brett Schaefer:having difficulty hearing

  Greg Shatan:We do need to look at existing HR conventions/declarations/principles and decide how to deal wit them.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Good proposal from Lee Hibbard

  Greg Shatan:Good point David.

  Paul McGrady:+1 Greg Shatan.  No cherry picking of human rights.  

  Nigel Roberts:IMO not so much cherrypicking but identifiying which rights are enganged by ICANN decision making

  David McAuley:I agree with others that sound on this call is not up to usual standard

  Vicky Sheckler:+1

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Under the literature section on the Google doc there are useful studies already available where relevant rights are mentioned

  Daniel Appelman:What is meant by "cherrypicking"?

  Tatiana Tropina:yes, exactly, we need to explain what we mean by :cherrypicking" in that document

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree wtih Tatiana that a summary of what was agreed in Workstream 1 should be recapped for newcomers.

  John Laprise:"cherrypicking": arbitrary selection

  Raoul Plommer:recap would be nice

  Daniel Appelman:We should decide what human rights are relevant and therefore which ones we should address.  That's not cherry picking imho

  Greg Shatan:I would define it differently -- selectively choosing from a group based on what is most beneficial to a particular point of view.

  Tatiana Tropina:I don't think the issue is to "address" - the issue is to "respect"

  Daniel Appelman:And yes, the summary of what WS1 did re human rights would be useful.

  Tatiana Tropina:I think we all agreed that Ruggie shall be treated carefully, in my opinion we can't follow Ruggie blidly. Some of the are relevant and can make their way into the FoI but I won't really refer to all of them

  David McAuley:I think Markus and Paul made some very good points

  Greg Shatan:Human Rights are interdependent and intertwined.

  Paul Twomey:Markus, just to note that the Rugge Principles do have some sections which could result in unintended consequesnces.

  Tatiana Tropina:Paul, +1. very, very careful.

  Greg Shatan:Agree with Tatiana -- we can't adopt Ruggie as such.  Yet we will need to deal with them.

  Tatiana Tropina:some of them refer to enforcement, so not relevant. Some of them can have consequences. Some of them can be used.

  rudi daniel:yes+1    Marcus and Paul

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, absolutely.

  Brett Schaefer:I wonder if the heart of this dispute is not about cherry-picking human rights, but the fear that intellectual property might not be included unless ALL human rights are included. If we agreed to include property rights among the "cherry-picked" human rights to be discussed, would that resolve your concerns Greg and Paul?

  Tatiana Tropina:We can just go through them one by one. And see what is useful. And what is dangerous.

  Paul McGrady:I'm very concerned about the selectivity of which rights will be respected and which won't.  If people are going to be denied certain human rights that aren't cherry picked by this group, how will ICANN let them know in advance that their rights will not be respected after the IANA Transition?  

  Tatiana Tropina:The inclusion of IP rights as any rights shall be considered together with prohibion of enforcement and proteciton.

  Greg Shatan:Brett, that's not really it, and I'm not looking at this solely from an IP point of view.

  Nigel Roberts:IP rights are a subset of Art1 Prot1 rights

  Tatiana Tropina:I will actually write all this down in the "concerns and unintended consequences" document. Because any right we are going to respect (without cherry picking) can not entail enforcement and protection, and I wonder how we draw a clear line. It shall be drawn.

  Kavouss Arasteh:There is echo from time to time

  David McAuley:Good point Tatiana

  Kavouss Arasteh:there is echo when Niel speaks

  Tatiana Tropina:David, yes, we concentrate a lot on "which rights" but we also have to focus on "how to shield ICANN from protection and enforcement claims" and how not to go outside of the mission

  David McAuley:agreed Tatiana, thank you

  Nigel Roberts:Kavouss this is becuase some has speakers on and is feeding back

  Andrew Mack:I agree that we should avoid unintended consequences and be mindful of what success for this group means -- a big key is keeping our focus discrete (and connected to the ICANN community).

  Tatiana Tropina:yes, agree, I ticked the green thing :)

  Jaifa Mezher:yes, I think that`s important

  Shreedeep Rayamajhi:Agreed

  rudi daniel:agree

  David McAuley:I would imagine most unintended consequences are not foreseen

  Tatiana Tropina:Paul? Me? I think we can start the document and see who is able to contribute

  Tatiana Tropina:David, exactly, but if we will build some walls in general they might protect us from other things

  David McAuley:OK, take your point tatiana

  David McAuley:Tatiana, that is

  Kavouss Arasteh:May I ask the people nozt to write in colour .It make some sort of distinction and discrimination of others who chat in balck and white

  Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, I am writing in colour to see which chat was mine to read further. Sorry but I don't think it's any kind of discrimination.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):shouldn't we first make progress on what we intend, and then discuss what these intended results might entail as unintended consequences?

  Daniel Appelman:How does one indicate with green or red?

  Rachel Pollack:the handraising icon

  Lee Hibbard:I concur with Jorge Cancio.

  Daniel Appelman:Thanks

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):The difficulty with defining respecting Human Rights is that a balancing is required.  The protection of one type of right may mean the violation of another type of Human Right so it is difficult to maintain balance.  The group will need to consider a mechanism and/or language that allows for this balancing to go on either at the level of the Board or the bottom up MultiStakeholder process or both.

  Brett Schaefer:@Greg, OK, sorry if I misinterpreted yor concern. I was just trying to figure out a way forward.

  Nigel Roberts:Any consequences that are not intended

  David McAuley:daniel, I think it is the icon directly off to right of :"CHAT"

  John Laprise:I'll volunteer: I have some scenario wrangling experience.

  Greg Shatan:"Unintended consequences (sometimes unanticipated consequences or unforeseen consequences) are outcomes that are not the ones foreseen and intended by a purposeful action."

  Nigel Roberts:It helps distinguish commenters

  Tatiana Tropina:Yes. It helps.

  Kavouss Arasteh:I am not convinced at all

  Greg Shatan:The law of unintended consequences, often cited but rarely defined, is that actions of people—and especially of government—always have effects that are unanticipated or unintended. Economists and other social scientists have heeded its power for centuries; for just as long, politicians and popular opinion have largely ignored it.

  Kavouss Arasteh:Tatiana

  Kavouss Arasteh:May you follow everybody else and not write in a manner attackting every body else to what you say and do adversely to other who write in black and whatr

  Nigel Roberts:What Paul is suggesting is that we think carefully and explore the consequences as much as we can so that we minimise consequences that are not intended

  Niels ten Oever:Can people who are not speakig pleasure mute their mic?

  David McAuley:Please mute if not speaking

  Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, I am not only one writing in colour. Sorry but with all respect this is the option provided by Adobe connect room.

  Kavouss Arasteh:Yes yopu follow Robibn

  Kavouss Arasteh:robin

  Tatiana Tropina:I am sorry to hear that you don;t like it but this sounds like an ad hominem attack from you.

  Kavouss Arasteh:This is not equal treatment

  Kavouss Arasteh:Pls kindly accept our humble request

  Tatiana Tropina:sorry to hear this.

  John Laprise:Disagree: running a parallel analysis of unintended consequneces has value as risk mitigation

  Tatiana Tropina:Anyone else has any requests concerning my font? I will follow the consensus decision of this group. :)

  Kavouss Arasteh:Yes I am disturbed on any distinctive way of writing try to attract the attention of others to his or her wrting

  Kavouss Arasteh:That was a request

  Paul Twomey:Paull I recognize that there are several types of functions wihtin ICANN and the implications would be different for each

  Greg Shatan:Everyone can write in color if they want.   Just click the "pod options" button in the upper right hand corner of the chat box and pick a color....  This may not be a fundamental human right but it does seem to align with freedom of expression.

  Vicky Sheckler:+1 w/ Paul McGrady's comments

  John Laprise:+1 Greg

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thanks Greg

  Nigel Roberts:Art. 10, Gret

  Nigel Roberts:Greg

  Daniel Appelman:I agree with Paul.

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, thank you. This discussion really distructs me from the content.

  Rachel Pollack:And Article 19 :)

  Tatiana Tropina::D

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):I don't think we may start our exercise with the unintended consequences, without first getting into specifics of the FoI (and what consequences we intend as part of our FOI building exercise) - otherwise we risk an abstract debate

  Kavouss Arasteh:Grec and Tatiana

  Kavouss Arasteh:It is a selfish way

  Tatiana Tropina:Jorge, I agree and disagree. Some of the concerns can be outlined already, even without outlining the focus

  Kavouss Arasteh:It is simple


  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Tatiana: as long as we don't slow up the progress of the "buliding" part of our work...

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"International law" is not really binding law unless we refer to certain treaties and the countries that have adopted those treaties.  There are also binding conventions as to war and hUman Rights - e.g. the Geneva Convention.  There are international legal principles re Human Rights  and it seems to be a priniple of this Workstream 2 that ICANN's By-Law will found the Framework of Interpretation on these principles (not laws) of International Human Rights.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):old hand, sorry

  Chris LaHatte:+1 Anne

  John Laprise:Negative consequences a matter of perspective. Some actors may differ on whther a consequence is negative or not. :(

  Tatiana Tropina:Anne, yes. International law is no more than a refrecence to a scope but it's not any obligation for us - it's for the states

  Tatiana Tropina:reference to the scope of FoI, like which rights, etc.

  Greg Shatan:Yes -- Unintended consequences can be positive as well as negative.

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):exactly, John...

  Chris LaHatte:we cannot shop around for human rights we find convenient but work on the principles, which apply in a more overarching fashion

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg :D

  Rachel Pollack:What about something like "potential consequences"

  Tatiana Tropina:"Concerns"!

  Bastiaan Goslings:I do not think we need to start with ‘unintended consequences’ per se, but as some brought up this legitimate concern, it suggests to me they already have some of these unintended consequences in mind. Good to collect these from the start IMO

  David McAuley:Whatever rights we consider we need to consider, as WS1 report says, how, if at all, this Bylaw will affect how ICANN’s operations are carried out and how the interpretation and implementation of this Bylaw will interact with existing and future ICANN policies and procedures.

  Greg Shatan:Rachel, that would included intended consequences.

  Kavouss Arasteh:i am not convince by this term

  John Laprise:excellent comment

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):when we discuss the FoI (its specifics), the consequences (intended and unintended, wanted and unwanted, agreed and disagreed) will emerge...

  John Laprise:by nigel

  Nigel Roberts:thanks

  Tatiana Tropina:let's call the document "concerns" - it's no more than a point for discussion

  Tatiana Tropina:we don't have to use this term at all

  Tatiana Tropina:because it's for us internally I think

  Greg Shatan:

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):long live wikipedia

  Tatiana Tropina:it's not more than termnology. Then anyone can list whatever point of concern (and call it unintended or negative or whatever consequences)

  Kavouss Arasteh:Yes tks

  David McAuley:Niels - you are in and out again

  John Laprise:Standard term for strategic planning

  Chris LaHatte:unintended consequences can sometimes be a result which people don't like, but not necessarily bad, such as issues of gender equity

  Andrew Mack:you've cut out

  Greg Shatan:How about "Consequences Other Than Those That Were Intended" or COTTTWI?

  Tatiana Tropina:Greg, ABA! (another bloody acronym)

  Greg Shatan:An acronym is always good ICANN policy!

  Daniel Appelman:Perhaps those who worked on WS1 would be in the best position to summarize that work

  Andrew Mack:Greg, that's one crazy acronym

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland)::D

  Kavouss Arasteh:No not at all

  Sonigitu Ekpe 2:I would like to volunteer

  Nigel Roberts:that was just me failing to lower

  Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, happy to see you are writing in pink :) Hurray to colourful chats.

  Andrew Mack:can you repeat what you'd like volunteers for?

  Tatiana Tropina:Volunteer for what?

  Tatiana Tropina:the sound was just too bad

  Nigel Roberts:we are all old hands

  Tatiana Tropina:I think if it's about concerns - we have several people who want to contribute, like Paul, me, who else?

  Niels ten Oever:It's Paul and you leading, others can input

  Greg Shatan:What are we volunteering for?

  Tatiana Tropina:Unintended consequences of volunteering

  Rachel Pollack::D

  David McAuley:Annex 06 is not that long

  Tatiana Tropina:greg shall volunteer. And I. and Niels.

  Tatiana Tropina:and David :)

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):we would need to start with the ws1 report (and annexes) itself...

  Greg Shatan:I have been "voluntold."

  Tatiana Tropina:not sure about others :)

  rudi daniel:is unintended consequences similar to suggesting instances where icann the corp. 's practices, in some instances would clearly trouble the community's probable interpretation of proper adherance to human rights as defined by an acceptable standard. ie..... the guiding principles the community intends to adopt.

  Greg Shatan:But I was about to volunteer :-)

  Tatiana Tropina:I mean, at least those active in WS1 shall check this doc!

  Kavouss Arasteh:tATIANA

  Rachel Pollack:It will be very useful for newcomers

  Kavouss Arasteh:Tatiana was very active at WS1

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):+1 David

  Tatiana Tropina:David, I think we just summarise the concerns from WS1 like Ruggie, etc. Just a short summary of some arguments there

  Tatiana Tropina:I don't think ti's gonna be long.

  David McAuley:OK Tatiana

  Tatiana Tropina:unless Greg is gonna turn it into HR memoirs

  Greg Shatan:+1 David.  That is a good starting point.  We also have some process history from the subgroup.

  Greg Shatan:and the CCWG.

  rudi daniel:perhaps we can pull bullet points from that ws1 annex?

  Tatiana Tropina:so we will have 2 documetns? Or one consisting of two parts?

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thank you Niels and Nigel.

  Niels ten Oever:@Tatiana - perhaps two docs?

  Niels ten Oever:Collaborative editing is not possible in the wiki

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree re Wiki.  Google docs prohibited for some users.

  Greg Shatan:We can transfer the result of the Google Doc to the Wiki regularlry.

  Sonigitu Ekpe:Yes

  Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Bye all.

  Nigel Roberts:Thanks for running the call tonight.

  Pär Brumark (GAC Niue):Thx all! Bye!

  Rachel Pollack:Thanks!

  David McAuley:thanks chairs, staff and all

  Tatiana Tropina:bye all! thanks!

  Niels ten Oever:Bye all

  Paul Twomey:Bye all

  Bastiaan Goslings:cioa

  Robin Gross:Thnks, bye

  Greg Shatan:Bye all!

  jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks and bye all!

  rudi daniel:thank you!

  Erich Schweighofer:Bye all.

  Lee Hibbard:Thank you Niels and everyone

  Markus Kummer:Bye all

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