Sub-group Members: Aarti Bhavana, Andrew Mack, Anne Aikman-Scalese, Avri Doria, Bastiaan Goslings, Brett Schaefer, Chris LaHatte, Daniel Appelman, David McAuley, Erich Schweighofer, Farzaneh Badii, Greg Shatan, Griffin Barnett, Hibah Hussain, John Curran, John Laprise, Jorge Cancio, Kavouss Arasteh, Markus Kummer, Matthew Shears, Niels ten Oever, Nigel Roberts, Pär Brumark, Paul McGrady, Paul Twomey, Rachel Pollack, Raoul Plommer, Robin Gross, Rudi Daniel, Shreedeep Rayamajhi, Tatiana Tropina, Tijani Ben Jemaa, Vicky Sheckler (33)
Observers: Agustine Callegari, Iren Borissova, Isabel Rutherfurd, Jaifa Mezher, Lee Hibbard, Ryan Carroll, Sonigitu Ekpe, Steven Metalitz, Taylor Bentley (9)
Staff: Brenda Brewer, Elizabeth Andrews, Karen Mulberry, Mandy Carver, Nathalie Vergnolle, Samantha Eisner
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p7tv2qycsug/
The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/accountability/ccwg-accountability-hr-subgroup-16aug16-en.mp3
2. Opening Remarks
3. Scope and purpose as outlined by WS1
4. Proposed Time line
5. Questions to answer
Notes & Action Items
1. Start work by capturing risks and unintended consequences taking into account the work from WS1. - small group to be lead by Paul Twomey
2. Document the Human rights discussion, agreements and work from WS1 - Lead by Sonigitu, with Niels, Greg, David and Tatiana
3. Work using Google docs this week and will reconsider at next meeting
Brenda Brewer:Good day all and welcome to Human Rights WS2 Subgroup Meeting #1 on 16 August 2016 @ 19:00 UTC!
Nigel Roberts:Welcome everybody!
Sonigitu Ekpe:Hello all,
Kavouss Arasteh:Hi dear Brenda
Niels ten Oever:Hello all
Kavouss Arasteh:What we can do without you
Kavouss Arasteh:What we can do without you`
Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Nigel
Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Niel
John Laprise:Good afternoon all
Markus Kummer:Hi everyone
Brett Schaefer:Kavouss, your microphone is on.
Kavouss Arasteh:It is now offm
Paul Twomey:Hullo everyone
Rachel Pollack:Thanks, Niel. There seems to be an echo
Kavouss Arasteh:there is some echo
Niels ten Oever:I think the echo is due to someone not having muted their microphone
rudi daniel:Good Day all :)
Kavouss Arasteh:May I request the co.- chairs to kindly give us a brief presentation of the matter
Kavouss Arasteh:How many meetings we will have
Kavouss Arasteh:Howlong lasts erach meeting
David McAuley:Hi Brenda, I am 4154
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue):Hi all!
Kavouss Arasteh:Timing of meeting
Niels ten Oever:It's all on the agenda Kavouss
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Hi all!
Kavouss Arasteh:fixed or rotatable
Kavouss Arasteh:What time management is forseen to discuss each topics and infact how many topics we have to discuss
Tatiana Tropina:hi all
Kavouss Arasteh:That we will not decide at a gien meeting and may be decision could even go to third meetingz
Kavouss Arasteh:What is the time limit for each intervention
Kavouss Arasteh:The second intervention must be shorter
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):we need a short-hand for this group's name :-)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):apologies from Mark Carvell
Kavouss Arasteh:No speaker should be abraptly interrupted if he or she made a lengthy intervention the chair should kindly remind her or him to be brief and conclude
Aarti Bhavana:Hi All!
David McAuley:My phone number is showing but I am on adobe
Aarti Bhavana:Can we please get scroll control for the presentation?
Nigel Roberts:2862 is Nigel Roberts
Kavouss Arasteh:what is 2862?
Kavouss Arasteh:Is this meeting is readed
Tatiana Tropina:it is recorded
Kavouss Arasteh:Nigel, you have a radiophonic voice , suitable for new announcer7 Jounaliost
Kavouss Arasteh:Radio announcer
Nigel Roberts:Thank you Kavous. Did you already read my background?
Kavouss Arasteh:You have sent severals which one pls?
Nigel Roberts:Wikipedia will assist ;-)
Tatiana Tropina:not to protect.
Tatiana Tropina:that was about other issues.
Paul McGrady:I think we lost our speaker
Tatiana Tropina:no sound
Greg Shatan:Nigel Roberts: Before joing Radio Caroline in September 1985, Nigel had been heard on the Voice of Peace and Irish pirate stations Southside, Sunshine and ABC Tramore. His nickname on the ship was “Baghwan”. With a taste for heavy rock music, he mainly broadcast on the ‘Caroline Overdrive’ service. Nigel moved on in June 1986 and ran a second-hand record shop in London and broadcast on the Rock Radio Network as ‘Skull’.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Re: SOI - As dsiclosed on the list, I represent the Pascau Yaqui Tribe of Arizona and our firm represents the Navajo and other Indian tribes. This is mentioned because I asked that the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples be added to this exploration of the Framework of Interpretation for Human Rights.
David McAuley:Niels - we lost you for a good two minutes
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Niels: we lost you for a while...
Niels ten Oever:You lost me?
steve metalitz:@Niels, your audio dropped for about a minute.
David McAuley:we hear you now
John Laprise:we do now
Niels ten Oever:Am i back now?
Tatiana Tropina:yes you are back
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):yes
Rachel Pollack:yes, now back
Paul Twomey:end of page 6
Tatiana Tropina:On the "anything missing"
Nigel Roberts:LOL @Greg that one is not me
Greg Shatan:There are two of you?
Tatiana Tropina:Nigel, how comes, I was so impressed :D
Tatiana Tropina:multiple personality :)
Tatiana Tropina:(I didn't say "disorder")
Nigel Roberts:It's a common name like John Smith
David McAuley:please mute if not speaking
Tatiana Tropina:A lot of background noise :(
Greg Shatan:Sounds like Pirate Radio to me.
Rachel Pollack:FOI is confusing with freedom of information -- just for me?
Andrew Mack:a phone ringing
Greg Shatan:How's this: He was a Board Director (Council Member) of the Radio Society of Great Britain between 1991 and 1996 and is a DJ/radio presenter with Channel Islands community local radio station QUAY-FM.
Kavouss Arasteh:There are some noise from tiome to time
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):lost Niels again
David McAuley:Niels - we are losing you
Tatiana Tropina:lost Niels again.
Niels ten Oever:Lost me still?
Raoul Plommer:I hear him
Nigel Roberts:I hear him fine
John Laprise:you're back
Nigel Roberts:I hear Kavouss
Nigel Roberts:Greg found the right one now
Tatiana Tropina:so we have two co-chair who have radio in their biography :) as far as I remember, Niels was building radio stations
Niels ten Oever:Please come in Paul
John Laprise:Disagree w/Kavous: We should be ambitious. It's the Internet. It's that important.
Tatiana Tropina:Good point, Paul.
Kavouss Arasteh:your voice is distorted
Sonigitu Ekpe 2:Please I need some clarification on human rights, access, standards and quality.
Tatiana Tropina:Absoultely - may be we can even create an additional doc for this?
Shreedeep Rayamajhi:indeed a good point paul
Daniel Appelman:As a baseline for our work, we need to discuss and reach some consensus on which human rights are relevant for ICANN's human rights framework
Shreedeep Rayamajhi:the basic standard is a must
Tatiana Tropina:Paul, +1 to eveything. Excellent intervention
Greg Shatan:I am opposed to cherry-picking human rights.
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, you can write it inthe doc :)
Nigel Roberts:Daniele: Baseline is, from my personal persepective ECHR Arts 8 & 10 and Art 1 of Protocol 1
David McAuley:To me baseline is making sure we respond to, comply with, final report of WS1.
Brett Schaefer:having difficulty hearing
Greg Shatan:We do need to look at existing HR conventions/declarations/principles and decide how to deal wit them.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Good proposal from Lee Hibbard
Greg Shatan:Good point David.
Paul McGrady:+1 Greg Shatan. No cherry picking of human rights.
Nigel Roberts:IMO not so much cherrypicking but identifiying which rights are enganged by ICANN decision making
David McAuley:I agree with others that sound on this call is not up to usual standard
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):Under the literature section on the Google doc there are useful studies already available where relevant rights are mentioned
Daniel Appelman:What is meant by "cherrypicking"?
Tatiana Tropina:yes, exactly, we need to explain what we mean by :cherrypicking" in that document
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree wtih Tatiana that a summary of what was agreed in Workstream 1 should be recapped for newcomers.
John Laprise:"cherrypicking": arbitrary selection
Raoul Plommer:recap would be nice
Daniel Appelman:We should decide what human rights are relevant and therefore which ones we should address. That's not cherry picking imho
Greg Shatan:I would define it differently -- selectively choosing from a group based on what is most beneficial to a particular point of view.
Tatiana Tropina:I don't think the issue is to "address" - the issue is to "respect"
Daniel Appelman:And yes, the summary of what WS1 did re human rights would be useful.
Tatiana Tropina:I think we all agreed that Ruggie shall be treated carefully, in my opinion we can't follow Ruggie blidly. Some of the are relevant and can make their way into the FoI but I won't really refer to all of them
David McAuley:I think Markus and Paul made some very good points
Greg Shatan:Human Rights are interdependent and intertwined.
Paul Twomey:Markus, just to note that the Rugge Principles do have some sections which could result in unintended consequesnces.
Tatiana Tropina:Paul, +1. very, very careful.
Greg Shatan:Agree with Tatiana -- we can't adopt Ruggie as such. Yet we will need to deal with them.
Tatiana Tropina:some of them refer to enforcement, so not relevant. Some of them can have consequences. Some of them can be used.
rudi daniel:yes+1 Marcus and Paul
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, absolutely.
Brett Schaefer:I wonder if the heart of this dispute is not about cherry-picking human rights, but the fear that intellectual property might not be included unless ALL human rights are included. If we agreed to include property rights among the "cherry-picked" human rights to be discussed, would that resolve your concerns Greg and Paul?
Tatiana Tropina:We can just go through them one by one. And see what is useful. And what is dangerous.
Paul McGrady:I'm very concerned about the selectivity of which rights will be respected and which won't. If people are going to be denied certain human rights that aren't cherry picked by this group, how will ICANN let them know in advance that their rights will not be respected after the IANA Transition?
Tatiana Tropina:The inclusion of IP rights as any rights shall be considered together with prohibion of enforcement and proteciton.
Greg Shatan:Brett, that's not really it, and I'm not looking at this solely from an IP point of view.
Nigel Roberts:IP rights are a subset of Art1 Prot1 rights
Tatiana Tropina:I will actually write all this down in the "concerns and unintended consequences" document. Because any right we are going to respect (without cherry picking) can not entail enforcement and protection, and I wonder how we draw a clear line. It shall be drawn.
Kavouss Arasteh:There is echo from time to time
David McAuley:Good point Tatiana
Kavouss Arasteh:there is echo when Niel speaks
Tatiana Tropina:David, yes, we concentrate a lot on "which rights" but we also have to focus on "how to shield ICANN from protection and enforcement claims" and how not to go outside of the mission
David McAuley:agreed Tatiana, thank you
Nigel Roberts:Kavouss this is becuase some has speakers on and is feeding back
Andrew Mack:I agree that we should avoid unintended consequences and be mindful of what success for this group means -- a big key is keeping our focus discrete (and connected to the ICANN community).
Tatiana Tropina:yes, agree, I ticked the green thing :)
Jaifa Mezher:yes, I think that`s important
David McAuley:I would imagine most unintended consequences are not foreseen
Tatiana Tropina:Paul? Me? I think we can start the document and see who is able to contribute
Tatiana Tropina:David, exactly, but if we will build some walls in general they might protect us from other things
David McAuley:OK, take your point tatiana
David McAuley:Tatiana, that is
Kavouss Arasteh:May I ask the people nozt to write in colour .It make some sort of distinction and discrimination of others who chat in balck and white
Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, I am writing in colour to see which chat was mine to read further. Sorry but I don't think it's any kind of discrimination.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):shouldn't we first make progress on what we intend, and then discuss what these intended results might entail as unintended consequences?
Daniel Appelman:How does one indicate with green or red?
Rachel Pollack:the handraising icon
Lee Hibbard:I concur with Jorge Cancio.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):The difficulty with defining respecting Human Rights is that a balancing is required. The protection of one type of right may mean the violation of another type of Human Right so it is difficult to maintain balance. The group will need to consider a mechanism and/or language that allows for this balancing to go on either at the level of the Board or the bottom up MultiStakeholder process or both.
Brett Schaefer:@Greg, OK, sorry if I misinterpreted yor concern. I was just trying to figure out a way forward.
Nigel Roberts:Any consequences that are not intended
David McAuley:daniel, I think it is the icon directly off to right of :"CHAT"
John Laprise:I'll volunteer: I have some scenario wrangling experience.
Greg Shatan:"Unintended consequences (sometimes unanticipated consequences or unforeseen consequences) are outcomes that are not the ones foreseen and intended by a purposeful action."
Nigel Roberts:It helps distinguish commenters
Tatiana Tropina:Yes. It helps.
Kavouss Arasteh:I am not convinced at all
Greg Shatan:The law of unintended consequences, often cited but rarely defined, is that actions of people—and especially of government—always have effects that are unanticipated or unintended. Economists and other social scientists have heeded its power for centuries; for just as long, politicians and popular opinion have largely ignored it.
Kavouss Arasteh:May you follow everybody else and not write in a manner attackting every body else to what you say and do adversely to other who write in black and whatr
Nigel Roberts:What Paul is suggesting is that we think carefully and explore the consequences as much as we can so that we minimise consequences that are not intended
Niels ten Oever:Can people who are not speakig pleasure mute their mic?
David McAuley:Please mute if not speaking
Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, I am not only one writing in colour. Sorry but with all respect this is the option provided by Adobe connect room.
Kavouss Arasteh:Yes yopu follow Robibn
Tatiana Tropina:I am sorry to hear that you don;t like it but this sounds like an ad hominem attack from you.
Kavouss Arasteh:This is not equal treatment
Kavouss Arasteh:Pls kindly accept our humble request
Tatiana Tropina:sorry to hear this.
John Laprise:Disagree: running a parallel analysis of unintended consequneces has value as risk mitigation
Tatiana Tropina:Anyone else has any requests concerning my font? I will follow the consensus decision of this group. :)
Kavouss Arasteh:Yes I am disturbed on any distinctive way of writing try to attract the attention of others to his or her wrting
Kavouss Arasteh:That was a request
Paul Twomey:Paull I recognize that there are several types of functions wihtin ICANN and the implications would be different for each
Greg Shatan:Everyone can write in color if they want. Just click the "pod options" button in the upper right hand corner of the chat box and pick a color.... This may not be a fundamental human right but it does seem to align with freedom of expression.
Vicky Sheckler:+1 w/ Paul McGrady's comments
John Laprise:+1 Greg
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thanks Greg
Nigel Roberts:Art. 10, Gret
Daniel Appelman:I agree with Paul.
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, thank you. This discussion really distructs me from the content.
Rachel Pollack:And Article 19 :)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):I don't think we may start our exercise with the unintended consequences, without first getting into specifics of the FoI (and what consequences we intend as part of our FOI building exercise) - otherwise we risk an abstract debate
Kavouss Arasteh:Grec and Tatiana
Kavouss Arasteh:It is a selfish way
Tatiana Tropina:Jorge, I agree and disagree. Some of the concerns can be outlined already, even without outlining the focus
Kavouss Arasteh:It is simple
Kavouss Arasteh:YOU JUST RESPOND TO THE REQUEST OF COLLEAGUES
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Tatiana: as long as we don't slow up the progress of the "buliding" part of our work...
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):"International law" is not really binding law unless we refer to certain treaties and the countries that have adopted those treaties. There are also binding conventions as to war and hUman Rights - e.g. the Geneva Convention. There are international legal principles re Human Rights and it seems to be a priniple of this Workstream 2 that ICANN's By-Law will found the Framework of Interpretation on these principles (not laws) of International Human Rights.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):old hand, sorry
Chris LaHatte:+1 Anne
John Laprise:Negative consequences a matter of perspective. Some actors may differ on whther a consequence is negative or not. :(
Tatiana Tropina:Anne, yes. International law is no more than a refrecence to a scope but it's not any obligation for us - it's for the states
Tatiana Tropina:reference to the scope of FoI, like which rights, etc.
Greg Shatan:Yes -- Unintended consequences can be positive as well as negative.
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):exactly, John...
Chris LaHatte:we cannot shop around for human rights we find convenient but work on the principles, which apply in a more overarching fashion
Tatiana Tropina:Greg :D
Rachel Pollack:What about something like "potential consequences"
Bastiaan Goslings:I do not think we need to start with ‘unintended consequences’ per se, but as some brought up this legitimate concern, it suggests to me they already have some of these unintended consequences in mind. Good to collect these from the start IMO
David McAuley:Whatever rights we consider we need to consider, as WS1 report says, how, if at all, this Bylaw will affect how ICANN’s operations are carried out and how the interpretation and implementation of this Bylaw will interact with existing and future ICANN policies and procedures.
Greg Shatan:Rachel, that would included intended consequences.
Kavouss Arasteh:i am not convince by this term
John Laprise:excellent comment
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):when we discuss the FoI (its specifics), the consequences (intended and unintended, wanted and unwanted, agreed and disagreed) will emerge...
John Laprise:by nigel
Tatiana Tropina:let's call the document "concerns" - it's no more than a point for discussion
Tatiana Tropina:we don't have to use this term at all
Tatiana Tropina:because it's for us internally I think
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):long live wikipedia
Tatiana Tropina:it's not more than termnology. Then anyone can list whatever point of concern (and call it unintended or negative or whatever consequences)
Kavouss Arasteh:Yes tks
David McAuley:Niels - you are in and out again
John Laprise:Standard term for strategic planning
Chris LaHatte:unintended consequences can sometimes be a result which people don't like, but not necessarily bad, such as issues of gender equity
Andrew Mack:you've cut out
Greg Shatan:How about "Consequences Other Than Those That Were Intended" or COTTTWI?
Tatiana Tropina:Greg, ABA! (another bloody acronym)
Greg Shatan:An acronym is always good ICANN policy!
Daniel Appelman:Perhaps those who worked on WS1 would be in the best position to summarize that work
Andrew Mack:Greg, that's one crazy acronym
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland)::D
Kavouss Arasteh:No not at all
Sonigitu Ekpe 2:I would like to volunteer
Nigel Roberts:that was just me failing to lower
Tatiana Tropina:Kavouss, happy to see you are writing in pink :) Hurray to colourful chats.
Andrew Mack:can you repeat what you'd like volunteers for?
Tatiana Tropina:Volunteer for what?
Tatiana Tropina:the sound was just too bad
Nigel Roberts:we are all old hands
Tatiana Tropina:I think if it's about concerns - we have several people who want to contribute, like Paul, me, who else?
Niels ten Oever:It's Paul and you leading, others can input
Greg Shatan:What are we volunteering for?
Tatiana Tropina:Unintended consequences of volunteering
David McAuley:Annex 06 is not that long
Tatiana Tropina:greg shall volunteer. And I. and Niels.
Tatiana Tropina:and David :)
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):we would need to start with the ws1 report (and annexes) itself...
Greg Shatan:I have been "voluntold."
Tatiana Tropina:not sure about others :)
rudi daniel:is unintended consequences similar to suggesting instances where icann the corp. 's practices, in some instances would clearly trouble the community's probable interpretation of proper adherance to human rights as defined by an acceptable standard. ie..... the guiding principles the community intends to adopt.
Greg Shatan:But I was about to volunteer :-)
Tatiana Tropina:I mean, at least those active in WS1 shall check this doc!
Rachel Pollack:It will be very useful for newcomers
Kavouss Arasteh:Tatiana was very active at WS1
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):+1 David
Tatiana Tropina:David, I think we just summarise the concerns from WS1 like Ruggie, etc. Just a short summary of some arguments there
Tatiana Tropina:I don't think ti's gonna be long.
David McAuley:OK Tatiana
Tatiana Tropina:unless Greg is gonna turn it into HR memoirs
Greg Shatan:+1 David. That is a good starting point. We also have some process history from the subgroup.
Greg Shatan:and the CCWG.
rudi daniel:perhaps we can pull bullet points from that ws1 annex?
Tatiana Tropina:so we will have 2 documetns? Or one consisting of two parts?
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Thank you Niels and Nigel.
Niels ten Oever:@Tatiana - perhaps two docs?
Niels ten Oever:Collaborative editing is not possible in the wiki
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Agree re Wiki. Google docs prohibited for some users.
Greg Shatan:We can transfer the result of the Google Doc to the Wiki regularlry.
Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Bye all.
Nigel Roberts:Thanks for running the call tonight.
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue):Thx all! Bye!
David McAuley:thanks chairs, staff and all
Tatiana Tropina:bye all! thanks!
Niels ten Oever:Bye all
Paul Twomey:Bye all
Robin Gross:Thnks, bye
Greg Shatan:Bye all!
jorge cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks and bye all!
rudi daniel:thank you!
Erich Schweighofer:Bye all.
Lee Hibbard:Thank you Niels and everyone
Markus Kummer:Bye all