Attendees:
Members: Alan Greenberg, Alice Munyua, Becky Burr, Cheryl Langdon-Orr, Eberhard Lisse, Fiona Asonga, Izumi Okutani, James Bladel, Jordan Carter, Jorge Villa, Julie Hammer, Leon Sanchez, Lyman Chapin, Mathieu Weill, Olga Cavalli, Pär Brumark, Robin Gross, Samantha Eisner, Sébastien Bachollet, Steve DelBianco, Suzanne Radell, Thomas Rickert, Tijani Ben Jemaa (23)
Participants: Andrew Harris, Avri Doria, Barrack Otieno, Carlos Raul, Chris Disspain, Christopher Wilkinson, Damien Coudeville, David McAuley, David Post, Finn Petersen, Gary Shatan, Jonathan Zuck, Jorge Cancio, Malcolm Hutty, Martin Boyle, Matthew Shears, Maura Gambassi, Paul Szyndler, Pedro Ivo Silva, Phil Buckingham, Sabine Meyer, Seun Ojedeji, Tom Dale, Tracy Hackshaw, Yasuichi Kitamura (25)
Legal Counsel: Holly Gregory, Ingril Mittermaier, Michael Clark, Nancy McGlamery, Rosemary Fei (5)
Staff: Adam Peake, Bernard Turcotte, Berry Cobb, Brenda Brewer, Grace Abuhamad, Hillary Jett, Kimberly Carlson, Laena Rahim, Marika Konings, Theresa Swinehart
Apologies: Keith Drazek
**Please let Brenda know if your name has been left off the list (attendees or apologies).**
Transcript
Recording
- The Adobe Connect recording is available here: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/p6khiqjw1v5/
- The audio recording is available here: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ccwg-acct-30jul15-en.mp3
Proposed Agenda
1. Opening remarks (roll call, SOI)
2. Minority statements
3. Review of remaining sections/documents
- Section 5B: Community Powers (intro)
- Section 5B.1: Budget
- Section 5B.2: Standard Bylaws
- Section 5B.3: Removal of Board Members (individuals)
- Section 5B.4: Recalling Board Members (entire Board)
- Section 5C: Diversity, Staff Accountability, and SO/AC Accountability
- Section 6: Incorporation of AoC
- Executive Summary
- Fulfillment of Requirements
- Section 1: Background
- Section 2: Accountability Mechanisms
- Section 7/8: Stress Tests
- Section 9: WS2
- Section 10: Implementation
4. Update on human rights discussion per legal advice
5. Update on voting weights discussion per legal advice
6. Review of XPlane graphics
7. Procedural approach for calls today and for Public Comment
A. Freeze starts on Friday 31 July at 18:00 UTC
B. Publication on Monday 3 August
8. AOB
A. Webinars on 4 & 7 August
B. Call on 4 August cancelled (replaced by webinar)
9. Closing remarks
Documents
Notes
1. Opening remarks (roll call, SOI)
2. Minority statements
· Minority statement is attached to the report in an appendix
· Dissenting opinion is your diverging view on a section/part of the report
· Statements are need in advance of the report publication.
·You are welcome to submit statements/dissenting opinions at any time, but if you miss the deadline, we cannot include them in the published report for 2nd public comment
· Extension until 12:00 UTC on Saturday (24h extension)
· Include pointer on Wiki for minority statements
3. Review of remaining sections/documents
Section 5B: Community Powers (intro)
· Three key phases (petition, discussion, decision)
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 5B.1: Budget
· Lot of changes from legal review.
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 5B.2: Standard Bylaws
· No major changes.
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 5B.3: Removal of Board Members (individuals)
· Any objections or comments on this section? Yes, Sebastien Bachollet
·Question: Do you think there should be the possibility of invoking the process only once per term? Ticks (Yes): Tijani + 14; Crosses (No): 6.
· ---> So, the group will proceed with once per term.
Alan Greenberg: Revised Section 30 of Director Removal: For the seven directors appointed by one of the three SOs or by the At-Large Community, a process led by that organization or subdivision would decide on the director’s removal. Only the SO or AC that appointed the director could decide on that director’s removal. For the purposes of the following paragraph and sub-sections, SO means the SO or for the case of the GNSO, the GNSO House that has the Bylaw right to appointa Director.
Section 5B.4: Recalling Board Members (entire Board)
·Fine tune in implementation phase the process for recall when close to Board director's end of term (with 6 months or less)
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 5C: Diversity, Staff Accountability, and SO/AC Accountability
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 6: Incorporation of AoC
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Executive Summary
· Action (staff): fix title for powers (5 not 6)
· Action (staff): change "culture of accountability" to "culture of transparency"
· Do you think this structure of the executive summary is acceptable?
·Suggestion from Steve Del Bianco: suggest that we add one paragraph explaining our WS1/WS2 rationale. This was on page 11 of our first draft proposal: Work Stream 1 mechanisms were defined as those that, when in place or committed to, would provide the community with confidence that any accountability mechanism that would further enhance ICANN's accountability would be implemented if it had consensus support from the community, even if it were to encounter ICANN management resistance or if it were against the interest of ICANN as a corporate entity.
· Action (staff): add steve's paragraph
· Action (staff) Clarify that community powers are a recourse/ escalation path/ backstop
· Action (staff) Fix IFR reference (if not in powers, in review)
Fulfillment of Requirements
·Any objections or comments on this section? yes, Avri Doria: do not accept the idea that we meet the considtion of require 4 for opennes.
Section 1: Background
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 2: Accountability Mechanisms
· Any objections or comments on this section? Yes, Eberhard Lisse's wildcard
Section 7/8: Stress Tests
· Any objections or comments on this section? Concerns from Argentina and Brazil on changing Bylaws
· GAC is still looking into issue of Stress Test 18
· Pages 28-27 are where we indicate new stress tests that were added based on PC#1
· Action (Steve/Cheryl): note in section the concerns from GAC and ongoing discussions
Section 9: WS2
· Any objections or comments on this section? No
Section 10: Implementation
· Any objections or comments on this section? Yes, Eberhard Lisse's wildcard
4. Update on human rights discussion per legal advice
· Agreement that there should be work/text on HR
· The disagreement is about where to include/discuss: WS1 or WS2?
·Proposal text from Keith Drazek: Within its mission and in its operations, ICANN will be committed to respect the fundamental human rights of the exercise of free expression and the free flow of information.
· Green ticks (yes, add Keith's text): 16
· Red crosses (no): Tijani + 3 (so, 4)
Eberhard Lisse has a general wildcard objection for this call
Agenda for next call at 17:00 UTC
1. Opening Remarks
2. Update on voting weights discussion per legal advice
3. Review of previous call (11:00 UTC)
4. Review of XPlane graphics
5. Procedural approach for calls today and for Public Comment
A. Freeze starts on Friday 31 July at 18:00 UTC
B. Publication on Monday 3 August
6. AOB
A. Webinars on 4 & 7 August
B. Call on 4 August cancelled (replaced by webinar)
7. Closing remarks
Action Items
· Action (staff): fix title for powers (5 not 6)
· Action (staff): change "culture of accountability" to "culture of transparency"
· Action (staff): add steve's paragraph
· Action (staff) Clarify that community powers are a recourse/ escalation path/ backstop
· Action (staff) Fix IFR reference (if not in powers, in review)
· Action (Steve/Cheryl): note in section the concerns from GAC and ongoing discussions
Chat Transcript
Kimberly Carlson: (7/29/2015 14:27) Welcome to CCWG Accountability Meeting #46 on 30 July! Please note that chat sessions are being archived and follow the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior: http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/expected-standards
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (7/30/2015 04:50) Greetings!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (04:52) Hi All
Grace Abuhamad: (04:55) All -- we have a really amazing Wiki page to share with you: https://community.icann.org/x/pKs0Aw
Grace Abuhamad: (04:55) Thank you to Kim for pulling this together
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (04:55) hi is it there audio?
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (04:55) Good morning, all.
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (04:55) i hear grace!!!
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (04:56) thanks
Grace Abuhamad: (04:56) anytime!
Konstantinos Komaitis: (04:57) good day all
Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (04:57) hello everyone
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (04:58) hi guys!
Alice Munyua (GAC): (04:58) Hello
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (04:58) Good Afternoon everyone!
Martin Boyle, Nominet: (04:58) @ Grace Yay: nice work Kim and team
Suzanne Radell: (04:59) Good morning all
James Bladel: (04:59) Morning.
Matthew Shears: (04:59) hi
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (04:59) yeah, a big thank you to the staff.
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (04:59) Good day!
Thomas Rickert, CCWG Co-Chair: (04:59) Hi all!
Michael Clark (Sidley): (04:59) Good day all
Phil Buckingham: (05:00) Good morning. .
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:01) Hello all ! Good to virtually meet you again
Avri Doria: (05:04) thank you, i appreciate the offer and accept that there is a deadline for taking advantage of it.
Maura Gambassi - IT: (05:05) Hi :-)
Avri Doria: (05:07) so if we are there with monority on time they will be attached to the report, did i understand correctly.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:07) Yes Avri
Avri Doria: (05:07) thanks
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:08) I am going to try to track changes or comments as we go
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:08) (let's see how that works)
Grace Abuhamad: (05:10) Page 3
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:11) I am a few minutes delayed by the day jon
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:13) day job rather
Grace Abuhamad: (05:14) As a reminder, we have created an amazing one-stop shop Wiki page with all the latest documents that compose the report. https://community.icann.org/x/pKs0Aw. We should have done this sooner!
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:14) Thanks, Grace.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:14) Well done.
Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (05:14) indeed amazing Grace. Thanks!
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (05:15) Grace and Staff -- great work on the wiki -- and on everything else. VEry impressive effort!!
Phil Buckingham: (05:15) Thanks Grace
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (05:15) Grace and staff good work!
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:15) Yes, I saw it and find it very helpful, many thanks Grace!
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:15) my audio crashed
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:15) can you hear me?
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:16) my audio has died
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:16) dial out please
Brenda Brewer: (05:16) Ok Jordan
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:16) Yes, no makor change
Alice Munyua (GAC): (05:16) Thank you Grace. Great work
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:17) let's see if this works
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (05:17) The subdivision change is valuable. THanks
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:18) i have audio
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:18) Welcome back Jordan
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:18) :-)
James Bladel: (05:18) Why not once per term?
Sébastien (ALAC): (05:19) Why 6 months?
Grace Abuhamad: (05:19) We are on page 6 for those who have joined late
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:20) So I am there, now
David McAuley (RySG): (05:20) Grace, think we are on 7 now
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:20) totally arbitrary
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:20) it could be anything, 6 mths in a 3 yr term seemd OK
Grace Abuhamad: (05:21) @David -- thank you!
David McAuley (RySG): (05:21) 6-7 both being discussed so both right
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (05:21) it says "a process" which should cover all the steps, Alan
Chris Disspain: (05:22) James + 1
Sébastien (ALAC): (05:22) I all against this section, but if it need to fly, I would like to suggest once a year (or once per term is OK too)
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:22) + 1 James
Phil Buckingham: (05:22) Good point , James
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:22) Agree with James.
Martin Boyle, Nominet: (05:22) @James +1
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:23) I support the intention explained by Jordan
James Bladel: (05:23) No apologies. I just assumed it is one of the threads buried in my inbox. :)
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:23) I can draft something on this, Alan.
Grace Abuhamad: (05:23) We are on page 7 now.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:24) What do people think re James' question?
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:24) once per term, or six months
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:25) I am opposed to once per term
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:25) it's designed to be generic
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:25) in case other SOs or ACs choose to sub-divide
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:26) [if they can do so]
Alan Greenberg: (05:26) @Jordan, that is a Bylaw provision to "subdivide", so we can lock it into this discussion with certainty at the moment
Malcolm Hutty: (05:27) gNSO may wish to create its own rules, and change them, e.g. regarding whether this applies to Houses, Stakeholder Groups or Constituencies. So don't be too prescriptive here
James Bladel: (05:27) They could also do this for the 6 month immunity. Albeit with more difficulty.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:28) six months isn't a whole term
David McAuley (RySG): (05:28) Good point Sebastien
Christopher Wilkinson: (05:28) +1 Once per term. After all, the Directors have all gone through Due Diligence which strongly discourages Directors who might wish to 'game the system'. CW
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:28) Sebastien, true, they can still be removed by other Board members, or the whole board could be removed.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:29) I am trying to make sure we test this idea, is mainly all.
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:29) put the question properly
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:30) thanks
Malcolm Hutty: (05:30) Once-per-term seems gamable to me
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:31) that means no Consensus
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:31) can we confirm it please next call?
Matthew Shears: (05:31) yep - and limiting
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:31) me too, Malcolm.
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:31) Please not that for the record
Chris Disspain: (05:31) Jordan, the problem wirh 'confirmming' on the next call is that there are no guarantees that all folkls will be on both calls
Grace Abuhamad: (05:32) What do you want me to note Eberhard?
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:32) 10 % of the individuals logged onto Adobe Connect!
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:32) Chris: that's partly the point isn't it?
Chris Disspain: (05:32) we are only saing this in s a public comment document...if t
Phil Buckingham: (05:32) The line / speaker is not clear
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:32) That 10% of the individuals logged into AC oppose this and hence it is not Consensus.
jorge villa (ASO): (05:33) hi everyone. What number of votes are we considering as simple majority?
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:33) huh?
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:35) I think Jorge's qusetion is what would the number be based to consider a simple majority - would it be based on the votes assigned to each SO or AC
Grace Abuhamad: (05:35) @Eberhard. That's a hard stat to use because there are many folks who have never participated in the calls/meetings. This meeting is above average attendance I believe: https://community.icann.org/display/acctcrosscomm/Attendance+Log+CCWG-Accountability
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:35) whatever is the minimum number of votes or part of votes that takes you over 50%
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:35) = simple majority
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:36) And it is simple majority within the COUNCIL of the SO or AC
Grace Abuhamad: (05:36) page 8
Chris Disspain: (05:36) Since I will not be on the next call ca I ensure please that my vote on this issue will be taken into account on the seocnd call?
Greg Shatan: (05:37) In the GNSO a majority requires a majority of each house.
Alan Greenberg: (05:37) I think that Tijani's suggestion was that ANY AC/SO could create the petition to start the process. Ultimately, the appointing AC/SO would of course have to support the actual removal. But that would use up the 1-per-term.
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:37) So that will be independent of the votes assigned? That's how I understood but would be happy to be corrected if the interpretation is incorrect
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:37) Correct Izumi
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (05:37) Thanks Mathieu for the clarification - understood
Chris Disspain: (05:38) I'd appreciate if one of the co-chairs could answer my question re voting on the next call..
Greg Shatan: (05:38) I don't think one SO/AC should be able to petition for the removal of another SO/AC's appointed director.
Matthew Shears: (05:39) + 1 Greg
James Bladel: (05:40) Agreed.
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (05:40) I know, but Holly doesn't want to bring it up. I can private chat it to Jordan, I guess.
James Bladel: (05:40) Unless it is in conjunction with spilling the entire board, of course.
Matthew Shears: (05:40) ?
Grace Abuhamad: (05:41) page 9
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (05:44) Sorry, please ignore that comment. Was an inter-lawyer thing
Malcolm Hutty: (05:45) Why is the petition set high if there is a subsequent vote, and the Community Forum is intended to allow discussion? Is it to prevent discussion in the Community Forum? What is the perceived benefit of that?
Alan Greenberg: (05:45) A petition requires a MAJORIY of an AC/SO. It requires unanimity to cast all of their 5 votes.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:46) The petition being set so high was an error
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:46) it is two SOs or ACs (but at least one must be an SO)
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (05:46) Alan, I thought the rules of how each AC/SO would vote internally was up to each AC/SO
Lyman Chapin (SSAC): (05:46) @James/Matt/Greg I'm not sure we should limit recall to just the appointing SO/AC - wouldn't that encourage an SO/AC director to pay closest attention to what her individual SO or AC wanted, rather than the interest of the entire Board/organization?
Phil Buckingham: (05:47) Chris + 1 - we need to play with numbers / scenarios
Malcolm Hutty: (05:47) Isn't that pretty high? It iplies considerable coordination between SOACs BEFORE the Community Forum takes place
Malcolm Hutty: (05:47) implies
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:47) Lyman - we have had extensive, extensive debates about that point
Christopher Wilkinson: (05:47) In terms of communty balance, this voting scenario works if the GAC AC is voting member. Absent the GAC, any issue will escalate politically and the system may become unviable. CW
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:47) I have joined Sebastien
Lyman Chapin (SSAC): (05:48) It might also make it difficult for a director to take a position within the Board that was unpopular with her appointing body but necessary with respect to the org as a whole
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (05:48) Noted Eberhard
Lyman Chapin (SSAC): (05:48) @Jordan - OK apologies
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:49) we may be right or wrong but that is where it had landed :)
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:49) Other than my wildcard :-)-O
Lyman Chapin (SSAC): (05:49) :-)
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (05:49) I am not sure expanding the petitioning would help with your most recent chat
Grace Abuhamad: (05:50) page 3
Grace Abuhamad: (05:51) page 9
Alan Greenberg: (05:51) Revised Section 30 of Director Removal: For the seven directors appointed by one of the three SOs or by the At-Large Community, a process led by that organization or subdivision would decide on the director’s removal. Only the SO or AC that appointed the director could decide on that director’s removal. For the purposes of the following paragraph and sub-sections, SO means the SO or for the case of the GNSO, the GNSO House that has the Bylaw right to appointa Director.
Alan Greenberg: (05:51) One more comment is that in the section, we should use "SO or AC" and "SO/AC" consistantly. Pick one.
Grace Abuhamad: (05:51) @Alan -- we will try to fix that in whole document in proofreading phase
Alan Greenberg: (05:52) I just removed the parathetical and added the last sentence
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (05:52) just my wildcard :-)-O
Alan Greenberg: (05:53) @Grace, Thanks!
Grace Abuhamad: (05:54) A note for all -- you see some yellow highlights in these documents. When they refer to "Section X", it's a staff note to fix in final compiling, proofreading, etc. to make sure that the numbersing of sections is consistent
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:56) under WS2 it says instituting a "culture of accountability" but it should say "culture of transparency" in ICANN.
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:56) Okay, it's still six powers in the last headline on page 2 followed by a list of five powers....
Grace Abuhamad: (05:56) @Robin noted
Grace Abuhamad: (05:56) @Sabine Noted
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (05:57) Given that the reference to the powers rlated to IANA reviw have been deleted from list of powers consider adding a reference to it in the secion of the Exec Summarry on the Independen Review Processes.
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:57) thx
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:57) is this summary on the wiki so we can go through it in detail and send comments in?
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (05:57) also +1 Holly
Grace Abuhamad: (05:57) Yes ! https://community.icann.org/x/pKs0Aw
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:57) fabulous - thanks!
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (05:59) not sure why human rights is in paraenthesis at the end. is there not a committent to do this in WS2?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:00) @Robin: pending our later discussion on the matter, that is why
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:00) everything is on the Wiki. EVERYTHING
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:00) ok, Mathieu, thanks.
Grace Abuhamad: (06:00) @Jordan -- yes! culture of transparency ;)
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:01) I thought it should be both that we wanted
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:01) a culture of Accountability and Transparency
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:02) Agree that the references to ie the Constitution, the People, the Executive, the Judiciary are awkward in that they are rough analogies at best.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:02) I don't agree with Christopher that this will be enormously expensive on teh basis that he outlines
Leon Sanchez (Co-Chair, ALAC): (06:02) Agree Jordan
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:02) that the proposal outlines, sorry
Malcolm Hutty: (06:03) I can't see why we would expect full time paid participation in the Single Member - the powers of the Single Member would only be activated very rarely anyway
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:03) since nobody participates in the Single Member
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:03) I quite agree with you, Malcolm.
Malcolm Hutty: (06:03) CMSM is backstop powers, NOT day-to-day business of ICANN
Matthew Shears: (06:04) + 1 Malcolm/Jordan
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:04) Agree Malcolm
Phil Buckingham: (06:04) + Malcolm that is my understanding .
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:04) suggest that we add one paragraph explaining our WS1/WS2 rationale. This was on page 11 of our first draft proposal: Work Stream 1 mechanisms were defined as those that, when in place or committed to, would provide the community with confidence that any accountability mechanism that would further enhance ICANN's accountability would be implemented if it had consensus support from the community, even if it were to encounter ICANN management resistance or if it were against the interest of ICANN as a corporate entity.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:05) My version of Alan's change to make it clear GNSO houses:
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:05) For the purposes of such a removal process [in para 31 below], SO means the SO or for the case of the GNSO, the GNSO House that has the Bylaw right to appoint a director.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:05) (Alan, I skyped it to you too)
David McAuley (RySG): (06:05) Thank you Steve, very good point
Malcolm Hutty: (06:05) However, CW's intervention does point out that maybe we need to be more explicit that what we are doing is providing backstop mechanisms, not redesigning the day-to-day working processes. Otherwise non-CCWG participants may misunderstand us
Phil Buckingham: (06:06) + steve - good addition
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:07) Good point Malcolm. Took note of this
Grace Abuhamad: (06:07) A note on this document -- we included only references to Stress Tests per a comment from Kavouss
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:07) i do not accept the idea that we meet the considtion of require 4 for opennes.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:08) I suspect threats to veto the budget and strat/operating plans could be a yearly thing, unlike the other powers, which would be more rarely invoked.
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:09) will there be a notation abotu the reuirment not having been met?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:09) @Avri: we'll review after we discuss the human rights outstanding item on the agenda
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:10) at least a comment that there is a difference of opinion on this?
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:10) ok
Jonathan Zuck (IPC): (06:10) I continue to believe that the requirement to reach consensus, not only on the desire to reject the budjet, but on the rationale, will make it very unlikely it will occur frequently
Becky Burr: (06:10) Avri - just to be clear, is it the absence of a human rights commitments that leads you to conclude we haven't met the openness requirement or something else
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:11) becky, that and nothing else we have done guarantees that in the absence of NTIA backing.
Becky Burr: (06:11) ok, thanks
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:11) my wildcard
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:11) i feel we have sort of ignored this requreiemtn and just assumed everything would be ok. we do not have any specific stress tests that test this.
Grace Abuhamad: (06:11) The graphic in this document will be updated to include latest from XPLANE
Grace Abuhamad: (06:12) (to be discussed later in agenda)_
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:12) I also think we have failed on the openness requirement.
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:12) In other parts of the Proposal the term "Independent AppealS Mechanisms " is used. Need to conform text on this slide with the pictures or conform the language elsewhere. We are marked this several times.l
Grace Abuhamad: (06:13) ok good catch. noted @ho;;y
Grace Abuhamad: (06:13) holly*
Grace Abuhamad: (06:13) page 2
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:14) Grace, I think you are being infected with my mispellings!
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:14) is your AutoCorrect spreading, Holly? ;)
Grace Abuhamad: (06:14) that's how you can tell i'm typing the notes. lots of mispellings
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:14) In section 5C Sebastien
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:15) Robin/Avri, can you point us to what in the NTIA contract helps assure the openness so that we can better understand your concern about what control will be missing?
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (06:15) I'd like to review this within the ASO as this is covered in the ASO MoU
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (06:16) Let me get back to the group if we identify any issues by addition of Board accountability check on SOs/ACs
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:16) Noted Izumi, was not awware of this provision in the MoU
Grace Abuhamad: (06:16) page 5
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (06:17) OK will try to get back to the group ASAP once confimed Mathieu - thanks
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:17) On stress tests, please remember that GAC is still looking into this issue
Grace Abuhamad: (06:17) longest section in the report!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:18) Hety we have been working solidly on this since day + 30 or so Grace ;-)
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:18) @Jorge: we are aware. Anything specific you expect for the PC report ?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:18) Understood and noted @Jorge
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:18) By openness do you mean access, free speech, transparency as to who is speaking? All of the above or just some?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:19) Your ttention ois drawn to pages 28 => 37 for the 'new ST's' we have added
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:20) Just noting it - there is some discussion going on on the GAC side...
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:20) ok thank you for clarifying
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:21) any idea about timeline of this discussion ?
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:22) Difficult to say, but there is some aspiration to give an input before the second comment period ends
Chris Disspain: (06:22) is it our intention to flag in the document that a number of GAC mebers have iussues with this?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:22) Thankks Olga and when the GAC comes to a position we lo forwaed to looking at that as we will of course look forward to any individual Govt's views in the POC process...
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:22) Page 3 of the document, please
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:24) We can do Chris certainly...
Chris Disspain: (06:24) I thnk we need to CLO
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:25) We shall "make it so" then ...
Chris Disspain: (06:25) I think Pedro is talking to that point now
Chris Disspain: (06:25) :-)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:25) yes he is and that is noted
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:25) we will note in the body of the dicument some text noting that
Chris Disspain: (06:25) and it is a very good dicument :-)
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:26) hey @el, I *was* trying to be funny on the mailing list :/
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:26) making a remarkt along the lines of Avris last comment could also be seen as adding to ST 33 recommendations.
Megan Richards: (06:27) The GAC working group on operating principles is also expected to address this issue
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:27) The text we suggeste in Paruis seemed to b rejected by thise in Paris so we did not inlude it...
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:28) sory about the typois
Sabine Meyer (GAC - Germany): (06:28) it was?
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:28) so then thaer will be no GAC consenus on that. so what.
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:29) Lack of GAC support is not the same as GAC opposition. For GAC to oppose CCWG proposal, it would have to arrive at that position in the absence of any objection. Not likely to happen
Chris Disspain: (06:30) Steve, I thojght the chartering orgs had to sign off...no?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:30) Yes they Do Chris
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (06:31) @Steve: my understanding is that the Chartering Organizaions need to approve the CCWG proposal
Grace Abuhamad: (06:31) page2
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:31) Correct Pedro
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:31) agree with Pedro
Grace Abuhamad: (06:31) page 6
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:31) same rules for this CCWG as for CWG, right?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:32) YUP Jordan
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:32) DId you see what the GAC did to sign-off on the CWG proposal?
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:32) Everybody should be reasonable I think and avoid extreme positions
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (06:32) +1 jorge
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:33) Steve can you clarify yourquestion?
David McAuley (RySG): (06:33) Jorge +1
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:33) From GAC Commnique in BA: The GAC takes note of the CWG-Stewardship Final Proposal, and states support for its submission to the ICG, without prejudice to comments made publicly by individual delegations.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:33) Steve
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:33) was that GAC statement equivalent to "signing off" on CWG proposal?
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:34) just my wildcard
Malcolm Hutty: (06:34) perhaps
Pedro Ivo Silva [GAC Brasil]: (06:34) @Steve: there was a sign off to support the submission of the CWG proposal to the ICG
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:36) + other orgs also made some caveats - as you know, many of those due to the conditionality of the CWG Report on the CCWG-Acc work
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:40) Keith proposal : Within its mission and in its operations, ICANN will be committed to respect the fundamental human rights of the exercise of free expression and the free flow of information.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:40) I support Keith's proposal to put that committment in the bylaws.
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:41) Problem with partial mentions is that there is the possibility of concluding "a contrario" that other HR are ignored
Chris Disspain: (06:41) My apologies all but I am going to drop off the call now...
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:41) Will the document about core values be reviwed in this call or in the next one?
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:42) Has been on Tue Olga. Need more review ? thought we had agreement
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:43) stepping away from AC wull stay on phone line
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:44) In a feat of live drafting, I have circulated the edits to 5B (community powers) arising from the call on the email list for your delighted eyes.
David McAuley (RySG): (06:44) Avri can you type that language in
Chris Disspain: (06:44) But before I do - I am still not comfortable with human rights staements going in at this stage...I'd be open to continuing the discussion and maybe reaching agreement on somethign for WS 1 but I lean towards putting the matter into WS2
Matthew Shears: (06:45) this is last version from e-mail list I think: ""Within its mission and in its operations, ICANN will be committed torespect, and ensure the respect of, fundamental human rights".
Holly Gregory (Sidley): (06:45) Avri, could you type your suggested language into the chat?
Chris Disspain: (06:45) @ matthew...I would need to see a definition of fundamental human rights before I could agree to them going into a legal document lie the by laws
David McAuley (RySG): (06:45) I commend our group for working hard to develop compromise language for this important issue. In WP2 I took position it was so important that a basic statement would be good in WS1 but detailed work be left for WS2. With this latest statement I have a question: Would the language regarding ‘ensuring’ not be capable of involving obligations affecting content?
Chris Disspain: (06:46) David + 1
Samantha Eisner: (06:46) As a matter of governance, I do not agree that the bylaws are a place to house compromise text on issues such as human rights, where even within this group we do not have a common understanding of what that term means and what we are hoping to opening up ICANN to have a responsibility to cover. We should not be placing that uncertainty into the bylaws just in the spirit of compromise. This is a separate issue from ICANN already having a commitment to recognize human rights within the bounds of its mission. If we’re going to place this within the core values of ICANN, we need to not have uncertainty of what we mean or how it will impact the organization.
Chris Disspain: (06:46) bye all
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:47) @Mathiew yes just was interested in review the final text
Grace Abuhamad: (06:48) @Olga -- Documents can be found here: https://community.icann.org/x/pKs0Aw
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:48) Many thanks Grace
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:49) Then we may need to study them before we complete WS1
Matthew Shears: (06:49) We also agree in a WP2 call to put the issue of how we address HR in the proposal as an explicit question for comment
Matthew Shears: (06:50) if I recall correctly
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:50) the argument about .doctor was just an argument, it was not a proper impact analysis of that claim.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:53) back into AC
Greg Shatan: (06:53) No change to the bylaws in WS1. Support a strong commitment in WS1 to work on this issue in WS2.
David McAuley (RySG): (06:54) Speaking personally, one concern, e.g., is that rights of free expression and rights to dignity (paraphrasing) can clash – I support the idea that this needs in-depth work that seems right for WS2 with Keith’s language in WS1
Greg Shatan: (06:54) Economic rights are not recognized in the bylaws.
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:54) i am fine with just a mention of fundmenetal human rights without d=singling any out. i can also accept Nigel's construction. i firmly beleuve that we cannot go forward with WS1 without some solution and if that requres study we better get on with it.
Olga Cavalli - GAC Argentina: (06:54) I must leave the call now I wil join next call later today, great work co-chairs and staff!
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:55) You can not compromise on Human Rights!
James Bladel: (06:55) On a personal level, I agree with Robin. I just don't want "human rights" to be a wedge between commercial players & customers.
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:56) can the KD wording be pasted in chat?
James Bladel: (06:56) For example, shutting down websites for terms of service violations. They don't have a right to spam, spread malware, hate speech,e tc. So long as we can keep this concept out of our contracts, I can support it.
Greg Shatan: (06:56) If we can recognize human rights without the unintended consequence of "rebalancing" the current treatment of IP rights, that would go a long way to addressing my specific concern. I still think we don't know what we are committing ICANN to.
Mathieu Weill, ccNSO, co-chair: (06:56) Within its mission and in its operations, ICANN will be committed to respect the fundamental human rights of the exercise of free expression and the free flow of information."
Grace Abuhamad: (06:56) Proposal text from Keith Drazek: Within its mission and in its operations, ICANN will be committed to respect the fundamental human rights of the exercise of free expression and the free flow of information.
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:57) James, I don't think it has to be. Commercial players have free speech rights too! ;-)
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:57) Agree with Robin, and not only free speech rights
Grace Abuhamad: (06:57) Green ticks (yes, add Keith's text): 8Red crosses (no): Tijani + 3
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:57) keep your hands up
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:57) 15 green ticks
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:57) 4 red crosses
Robin Gross [GNSO - NCSG]: (06:57) I count 15 green ticks
Avri Doria (participant & atrt): (06:58) 2/3
Steve DelBianco [GNSO - CSG]: (06:58) I will need to check with CSG members before indicating agreement on this
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:58) 16 green ticks
Greg Shatan: (06:58) How do we count abstentions on a call with 58 participants.
Samantha Eisner: (06:58) Again, I think that good governance dictates that we don't insert terms into teh Bylaws that we all agree "have a leot of detail" to understand how they will impact ICANN
Christopher Wilkinson: (06:58) That is a green cross, but I would add 'particularly' expression and information
Grace Abuhamad: (06:58) Yes numbers are updated
Sébastien (ALAC): (06:58) And the abstention compte for what?
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:58) a greeen cross? that is a tricky thing to imagine
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:58) Which ones are member sand which ones are participants?
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:58) Participants do not have a vote here
Matthew Shears: (06:58) and thanks to Keith for the language
Bernard Turcotte Staff Support: (06:59) bye all
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:59) please note my wildcard objections for tonight's call
Eberhard Lisse [.NA ccTLD Manager]: (06:59) Rest? SOme of us have to work for a living
Cheryl Langdon-Orr ALAC - APRegional Member: (06:59) Talk again soon then team... Bye for now... Thanks everyone.:-)
David McAuley (RySG): (06:59) Time flies, bye all till later
Jordan Carter (.nz, rapporteur): (06:59) bye team
Pär Brumark (GAC Niue): (06:59) Thx all! ´Later!
James Bladel: (06:59) Thanks folks.. ANd co-chairs/Staff.
Matthew Shears: (06:59) thanks
jorge cancio (GAC): (06:59) bye
Izumi Okutani (ASO): (06:59) thanks all
Greg Shatan: (06:59) Bye all.
Christopher Wilkinson: (06:59) Okay, Green Tick. But not exculding all the other HR aspects in the Sidley memo.
Rosemary Fei (Adler & Colvin): (06:59) bye all
Phil Buckingham: (06:59) thank you co chairs
Michael Clark (Sidley): (06:59) Bye for the time being
Kimberly Carlson: (07:00) Thanks All, bye
